Energy Twister Explanation Request

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Here are some simple math explaining why 0.125 proc rate wont work, even with my wizard that has 50 cc in base, 70 cc in battle.

Blizzard's explanation on proc rate is that it is a factor that is used on AOE spells so that overall crit chance achieves a single spell. Use this as a reference, a proc rate of 0.5 is way too high for storm chaser, it is very easy to cast two twisters at the same time and have them hitting something. Same argument goes for 0.25 (energy twister's proc rate in 1.03). But Blizzard nerfed the proc rate to 0.125 for all the runes. This means we need EIGHT twisters at the same time to achieve the proc rate of a single hitting spell. Now with 8 twisters, that is 35 * 8 = 280 Arcane power, which is your entire arcane refill twice if you do not cast any spell. More like 4 - 6 times if you need to cast diamond skin, frost nova, energy armor, teleport, and explosive blast

Each twister lasts for 6 seconds. I dont know about other players, but I found it very difficult to refill my arcane power fast enough to cast 8 twisters to achieve the desired proc rate of a single hitting spell for two reasons. The first one is the cool down is not fast enough, i.e. I am not procing CM fast enough. The second reason is that I do not have enough arcane power to do so. Note that I have 50cc unbuffed, and 70cc buffed (with pinpoint energy armor, and deep freeze on frost nova). I personally found it very difficult to have eight twisters going at the same time, let alone many players with less cc. I agree with one of the posts above APOC seems to be working as AP with a chance to OC.

Now what is a good proc rate, i think 1/6, roughtly 0.18 is a good balance. That requires us to cast 6 twisters at the same time to achieve the same proc rate, which seems reasonable to me.

With wizard, we do not have many variety. with melee wizard, it is in many cases about which rune to use, rather than which skill to use. I have no problem with nerf the proc rate on ww and sc, but i do believe they are over nerfed to a point the build are completely killed (if player with 50+ cc wont use it, I dont know how many player will).

Thank you for reading this and pass them on, Lylirra
09/24/2012 06:31 PMPosted by Lylirra
Lylirra, may I draw your attention to this post in which I have tested Archon vs Wicked Wind CM in farming speed and efficiency and found wicked wind to be subpar even in gears build exclusively for energy twister?

I'll take a look. Thanks!

(Same goes for the rest of the feedback in this thread, too. I'm reading all of it and will make sure it gets where it needs to go.)

Send report to Fix also reflect damage affix on bosses/Champions to follow the rule of Proc coefficient of that ability
I made a good call not investing into arcane power on crit for this build then. I saw my bro play this storm chaser build and immediately thought - yeah there gonna nerf that - especially since it seemed fishy to me that storm chaser was somehow procking at such a high rate compared to the other runes.

My suspicions were correct.
@MasterJay, I can't login to PTR so can't confirm. So can you explain how you think twisters are viable compared to meteor's let's say? Twisters proc at 0.125 now, all the runes including ones that move. Meteor is 0.25 (twice on initial hit). And meteors do more dps. And on 105 they only delay for 1.25s instead of 2. So unless twisters is stealth buffed to have a high proc rate or something that I'm not seeing, I don't see how you can say twisters are still "awesome" when other skills can be "more" awesome.

We are frustrated at the continuous over-nerfing of skills so stay on point there instead of talking about how much more dps you can do in 105 (which I'm not doubting, MP should make farming much more fun for all gear levels)

And FYI, I have more dps than you though a bit slower (2.1 atk speed without slowtime). I'm curious how you arrive at twisters are still good since it offers nothing in dps, only procs. Have you tried using meteors instead?

His post is useless, this is why:
- Only viable with a very concrete set of gear. (Which is high in cost despite what he says, 99% of the wizards can't afford it, and yes my wizard is around 300 mill. cost but build in a different way, ie. more balanced with good defence as well as unbuffed dmg.)
- Which gives up survivability (he has crap defences, ofc his mitigation comes from freezing mobs which is fine).
- And damage. For a given build.

So please, this is no promoting build diversity, this is just forcing people into a given gear. Blizzard tells us to go to the AH and build our gear around a given concept to use a forced build to be competitive.

I don't care about nerf, I want to be competitive compared to other classes. Give me options as ranged or melee wizards beyond this if you want to nerf it so only high end items make the build work. Period. It's just called 'balance' ffs.
09/25/2012 03:30 AMPosted by xixi
Now what is a good proc rate, i think 1/6, roughtly 0.18 is a good balance. That requires us to cast 6 twisters at the same time to achieve the same proc rate, which seems reasonable to me.

For WW yes for moving Energy Twisters that is too low! for Storm Chaser to be viable and I'm not just talking about APoC generation and Cool down reduction but about LoH as well Storm Chaser and other moving Twisters need to be at least at 1/4 for the ones with less Arcane requirements and Storm Chaser due to its nature at 1/3.

Now what would this do? It would allow medium endgame barrier into the build to get started people would start out using Storm Chaser or Mistral and then as they progress advance to Wicked Wind. Which as some point will make you feel like you're breaking the game at 0.175-0.185 proc rate.

This wont put CM/ET builds anywhere near endgame Archon builds but it will allow people to get close and it will make the build viable. Otherwise what we will see in a month or two is Archon builds everywhere. I love the idea around CM builds to use certain skills in combination and instead of nerfing that I would love for Blizzard to make it so that we have MORE such options to explore MORE meaningful passive runes would go a long way towards that.
I feel the nerf was overdone, i say bring it back up to around .2 for WW and maybe .25-.3 for the other runes.
The reason for the nerf was legendaries but most of the used legendaries with the build have an internal cooldown (wizardspike and stormcrow in particular) so the proc rates never mattered, another alternative would be to drastically reduce the proc chance and remove the internal cooldown. Just some ideas
OK, so you know it was a "BUG" for a long time, and you didnt fix. Then after lots wizard start use it and you suddently change it, welll done!

Well, I am not angery, I know storm chaser is over power in 104 just like trail of cinders, and I can accept you nerf it. I am just feeling all wizard are being discriminated. My BB friends can run A3 smoothly with a low cost on gears by using WW, BBs and Jay are happy. And wizards are not since it cost lots to build a wizard to run A3. I know that Monks and DHs are not happy with coming version so I dont want to make common on their efficience of farming in current version. But surely they are more efficient than wizard. Witch doctors? I guess they have been discriminated before and they have their justince in current version. But how about our wizards?

Sometimes I start thinking this situation would change if Jay go to play a wizard or any other guys in game design group go to play a wizard. And yup, this is my point, did you really play wizard before nerf and buff something? Did you?
You said that you don't want to nerf Monk's One With Everything because of the gear requirements...

so , wtf about Critical Mass Wizard ? It doesn't require a good gear ??????

Seriously , what we did make you upset ? What was the bad side you see from CM build ?

It's by far best wizard build ! And , in my opinion , best build in this game !

I was sick of hydra/blizz build , although i used it to kill Belial ! Then I went to act 3 and got hammered by any thing before I could escape ! I was frustrated , tired and I decided to quit this game !

Until I saw a critical mass wizard changed my life :( !

Now you completely destroyed it ! The only build make Wizard a strong class !

Archon sucks btw , even though they can do a massive damage , but it require a ridiculous intel and critical damage ! They just !@#$ their pants every time they see a reflect damage affiix...

So can you tell me , what should Wizards do now ? Spending a hundred dollars to build an archon spec , rerolling a Barbarian ( whose Double Tornado build is still viable ? ) or quitting this game ?

Stupid patch ... why don't you leave everything alone and focus on PvP , expansion , new map or something ???
Unless they reconsider this HUGE nerf, the release of 1.0.5 will be the Day Diablo Died for me.

I do not like Meteor or Spectral Blades and I absolutely do not enjoy kiting builds.

People can call the use of the current Storm Chaser 'abuse of an overpowered skill' or what-have-you all they want, but what it has been is FUN. I've had more fun with this build than anything in recent gaming memory. I've tried the new .125 WW on live but have yet to try any of the runes on the PTR, but just from the taste of the current WW it's just... horrible.

To echo what's been said here... please consider a .25 or higher proc rate for SC and the other runes and at least a .2 for WW. .125 for all is just too harsh and kills so much. If I've needed a reason to quit D3... 1.0.5 will be the final nail in the coffin if this nerf is left as-is.

The only question I gotta ask Blizzard is: what's the utility of ET now that it doesn't proc enough for CM builds?

The reason people used ET was for its proc rate, but now that it's gonna get WAY overnerfed, it's gonna be completely useless of a skill.

Blizzard, you seriously need to reconsider that ET nerf. Barbs' WW build still works minus the LoH nerf, but ET-CM is completely killed. It's not even viable anymore.
They should seriously consider the proc rate of Twisters. They didnt just nerf it, it's over nerfed that it killed melee wiz. They will not only killed the cookie butter build of Melee wiz, they will also shut down Storm Armor build. Who cares about Storm armor being buffed when you can't even proc?
this thred need serious blizzard atension until a wizzard can keep up with a barb with equal gear cost blizzard should focus on barb nurfing (ie jay wilson nurfing)
Actually, I think MasterJay has the right gist of it. Wicked Wind is definitely working much better in 1.05 PTR, than in 1.04. I'm definitely not well geared, unlike say MasterJay, and I can make it work pretty easily. I'm actually amused, since MasterJay was less than enthused last night when he said "Twister/Melee build sucks now." But I think that was before he actually tried it in PTR. I too was very negative about the viability of WW before PTR and was trying to make Mistral Breeze work. I've definitely changed my tune that WW is the clear rune of choice again for me. So I would recommend that anyone that hasn’t yet logged in to PTR should try it first before dismissing Energy Twister out of hand.

The key is that Frost Nova was seriously buffed and it makes the entire build viable again with Energy Twister, specifically with WW. Unfortunately, we badly need a tweak to the proc for non-WW runes, which just can't compete with WW. And that's the key here. WW is stationary and predictable, which makes it synergize so MUCH better than the other runes with Frost Nova (and the guaranteed 3s stun lock we have with Frost Nova on elites, regardless of your attack speed). The twisters from the non-WW runes just keep passing through enemies, so you're not being as efficient in having multiple twisters sitting on top of elites. I'd love to be able to try the other runes more reliably, but I just don't think isn't as viable. For example, 1.05-PTR Mistral Breeze feels about where it is right now in 1.04, while WW feels "buffed."
Hi as many of you I see big trouble on this blizzard is doing with wizards, Blues you are taking on consideration opinion of many wizard with high gear those are a few one on all diablo wizard kind, cause the items that have the exact dps INT and the bust on energy twister are few like for example Slorak Madness wand that not all could afford or like or found, also thing this you first bring down Energy Twister down and if you have wicked wind you will struggle and spam to much your spells to stay alive what is not point, and if you are taking down the armor and resis con Energy armor you are just making something that for some players works fine to not work and this not make diversity on builds this just move player to use other combination of spells to do inferno and if is good all move to that, the answer is not nerf skill to kill build the answer is buff the other skills to be competitive to CM build.

Also taking down resis and armor will bring chaos to all wiz cause even if you have a kitting build with resis buff on 1000 you could die and now you bring down resis it will cause more deaths even if you have resis on 700 with out buff.

Other problem you could easy see is you bring to new game style for challenge player but all ready is going to be harder and bring Energy armor and Energy twister down will make almost impossible, I think you should make all energy twister hit as storm chaser it is now and ok you could down Energy Armor as you are doing, or ok bring down the storm chaser but leave Energy armor as it is now on patch 1.0.4, Also see that CM is a choice and i personally use that cause i like the skills and is intense build.

I think that even ok is a "bug" you are nerfing two things on two patches like just for kill an effective fun way to play wizard cause let be honest to be consider op selection you will have to be one of the few best gear wizards on high Chc, resis,Int, Vit, Arcane on Crit, Max arcane, DPS, armor and even with CHC bonus on Energy Twister, so in other words a balance player that not all could be cause the cost of items and the few quantity of those items, is not just to defend a build is actually for all wizard cause if you want other build is ok blizzard just need to make the other skills works better and be funnier.

Hope blues really see and do the changes we ask of not nerf one or the other and take this seriously cause nerfing nerfing is just make me think on leave the game instead on stay around to play the new things, cause it would take down the fun of the game and is like go back in time and you dind't make a change at all.
why is one forced to play wwbarb in order to achieve an efficient farmer lol why is blizz even nerfing stormchaser still slower than wwbarb =)
Seriously this nerf we really have to bring it up and what ever !@#$ Blizzard is going make so let it be.To those want to promote a new build which viable after patch then just post it at the wizard forum (I believe what ever power build you guys come out for sure you will get the nerf 1 day )just the matter of time.

I fully support to un nerf ET and Blizzard stop killing our build if you guys at Blizzard have nothing to do go help the warden,catch some botter or think new way to make our other skill more useful than keep nerf those useful skill.
If you are trying to promote build diversity, make it so I dont have to save up millions for decent gear before I can progress
09/24/2012 05:58 PMPosted by Lylirra
We might change that plan for the live notes, but it really depends on your feedback. :)

I surely hope you change your minds about it.

You talk about build diversity and not wanting players to be pigeonholed in to specific gearing yet for me and my build this change does just that.

Either it renders CM close to useless for my purpose of resetting cool down on Archon which doesn't promote build diversity but instead pushes me towards other builds that I don't want to play.

Alternatively it pigeonholes me in to gear for crit rating above anything else to achieve a minimum of 50% something I'm assuming you don't desire as it would completely invalidate your own reasoning for nerfing IAS in the first place.

If the issue lies with frost nova and diamond skin then I'd say it's time to look at solutions to limit cool down reduction on a skill level instead of general nerfs like this, nerfs that are counterproductive to build diversity and gear selection.

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