Wicked Wind Tick Rate and Breakpoints

Wizard
Prev 1 19 20 21 25 Next
I'm curious, how does your simulation and testing differ from your calculations? The math seems right, with about 70 AP regen per second, meaning 10 twisters up at a time is reasonable (about 2 per second), with white attack crits fueling your EB.
I'm not quite ready to post my CM/WW simulation program yet but try this.

If you have a setup that should (theoretically) give you around 4.1 CM procs per second total from WW + EB + FN (I'm using APS=2.51 [33 ticks] CC=51.5% APOC=20, evocation enabled... simulation results give [with 0.125 WW proc rate] 3.97 CM procs per second coming from 10.3 average active twisters and 0.86 chain reaction casts per second)...

Use standard WW + chain reaction + frost nova + evocation build.

Fight Azmodan and use an AutoHotKey script with no delays between commands for minimum skill cast latency, like this

#IfWinActive, ahk_class D3 Main Window Class
$+d::
While GetKeyState("d","p"){
Send 1
Send 3
Send 2
click
}
return

(hold down shift+d to activate)

And watch your frost nova button to see how long it's taking for the cd to expire. It won't take 2 seconds, it's more like 1 second or slightly more. I don't have FRAPS set up to prove it but I think it's pretty clear that it's much less than 2 seconds on average if you try it. If you were getting say 7.9 CM procs per second, the frost nova cd would be taking (12*0.85)/(7.9+1) = 1.15 seconds to expire.

Also, testing vs Azmodan shows that comparing DPS output using no armor spell vs using Shocking Aspect, my DPS output is 420k no armor and 610k w/ Shocking Aspect. Assuming 40k of that increase comes from the base Storm Armor spell damage, the 150k dps increase from Shocking Aspect is about double what it should be if you assume 0.125 chance for each WW crit to trigger the 35% weapon damage SA hit.
11/09/2012 02:33 PMPosted by Shandlar
Therefore you would probably have 11 or 12 twisters at a time if you are chaining against a single target due to approx 0.5 aps being used for nova


That's one thing I wasn't sure of... diamond skin and explosive blast can be cast instantly at any time, how long are the cast delays for WW and frost nova? I just assumed both are 1.0/aps_from_char_sheet seconds from when you cast WW or frost nova until you're able to cast either of them again.
11/09/2012 06:11 PMPosted by Steve
That's one thing I wasn't sure of... diamond skin and explosive blast can be cast instantly at any time, how long are the cast delays for WW and frost nova? I just assumed both are 1.0/aps_from_char_sheet seconds from when you cast WW or frost nova until you're able to cast either of them again.


All spells either use an attack turn or they dont. The only difference caused by 'cast animation' that everyone keeps talking about is how long after cast you can start moving again (hold over from the kiting days).

Spells with different animation mechanics and length do not magically give you extra or fewer attacks per second however.

Therefore if you are 3 aps and cast exactly 1 nova a second, you will get exactly 2 twisters a second. Diamond skin and explosive blast do not effect this in any way whatsoever.

And watch your frost nova button to see how long it's taking for the cd to expire. It won't take 2 seconds, it's more like 1 second or slightly more. I don't have FRAPS set up to prove it but I think it's pretty clear that it's much less than 2 seconds on average if you try it. If you were getting say 7.9 CM procs per second, the frost nova cd would be taking (12*0.85)/(7.9+1) = 1.15 seconds to expire.

Also, testing vs Azmodan shows that comparing DPS output using no armor spell vs using Shocking Aspect, my DPS output is 420k no armor and 610k w/ Shocking Aspect. Assuming 40k of that increase comes from the base Storm Armor spell damage, the 150k dps increase from Shocking Aspect is about double what it should be if you assume 0.125 chance for each WW crit to trigger the 35% weapon damage SA hit.


I've noticed both of these points as well. The mathematical and the actual effect of SA is different. The only thing I can figure is against 2 targets if the twister 'crits' against one, it will SA shock both, not just the target that was crit against.

The other point appears there is some 'clumping' involved with CM. It appears for certain that we gain slightly better CM results than we should at lower proc rates. Then as you get higher and higher 'expected' CM procs per second, it becomes closer and closer to reality. I haven't been able to discover the actual mechanics behind this phenomenon yet.

It honestly driving me crazy. I do know that with the servers as they are now, 3.01 aps is hurting me, not helping me. There are just too many actions being done at a time and the server has to 'stutter' to calculate everything, drastically slowing down real dps. Its very depressing cause if the servers worked properly I expect I'd be dealing a full 25-30% more damage.
Jus curious how come ZISSS do not need ATKSPD for CM/WW?
11/09/2012 10:53 PMPosted by sp0rk
Jus curious how come ZISSS do not need ATKSPD for CM/WW?


Cause hes bad.

IAS isn't manditory if you use lifesteal though. It is a legit gearing strat. I personally hate it cause the freeze is so weak that occultists/fire mages run away over and over and over again.

You can however get MUCH higher paper dps going this route. Personally I think a 185k paper dps at 60cc and 3.01 aps is better than 250k dps at 60cc and 2.01 however.

I'm prolly just being stubborn however. Audi showed us that IAS isn't everything with that insane 3.35m real dps run. I still don't know how he did that (theres no way he was 400k paper dps, so how did he get his multiplier so much higher than the rest of us).

I have MANY theories that I'm slowly but surely digging through. Nothing I'm comfortable reporting yet however. I'm currently answering one question just to spark 2-3 more.
Does having an attack speed in between breakpoints add the benefit of allowing more tornadoes on the field compared to being right at the lower breakpoint?

Is 2.85aps still provide more tornadoes than 2.7273 aps, even though the tick rate per tornado stays the same?
I've noticed both of these points as well. The mathematical and the actual effect of SA is different. The only thing I can figure is against 2 targets if the twister 'crits' against one, it will SA shock both, not just the target that was crit against.

The other point appears there is some 'clumping' involved with CM. It appears for certain that we gain slightly better CM results than we should at lower proc rates. Then as you get higher and higher 'expected' CM procs per second, it becomes closer and closer to reality. I haven't been able to discover the actual mechanics behind this phenomenon yet.

It honestly driving me crazy. I do know that with the servers as they are now, 3.01 aps is hurting me, not helping me. There are just too many actions being done at a time and the server has to 'stutter' to calculate everything, drastically slowing down real dps. Its very depressing cause if the servers worked properly I expect I'd be dealing a full 25-30% more damage.

Shand, does that mean that we should drop from 3.01 to 2.73 (at least for now)?
@Ged it might be an internet connection issue, like shand i dont see significant improvements at 3.01 atk spd. so ive gone down to 2.75 and more dps

Shand this may be difficult to do, but can u somehow test out ur setup on a different internet connection, (ie a friends house or by tethering directly to an LTE network)

I noticed that 3.01 atk spd i was getting less server lag tethered to my cell phone (however i abuse my data plan as much as i can with things other than gaming)
All spells either use an attack turn or they dont. The only difference caused by 'cast animation' that everyone keeps talking about is how long after cast you can start moving again (hold over from the kiting days).

Spells with different animation mechanics and length do not magically give you extra or fewer attacks per second however.

That's just because for most spells, cast animations have the same length. But if they don't, you do get extra/fewer aps.
Think electrocute. That's 2*aps right there.
Monks spirit generators are another example. Although I haven't figured out the mechanics completely (Fists of Thunder is a b!tch), it's obious that they are faster than 1*aps.

That being said - yes, FN and ET cast at 1*aps.

@BDF: From my testing, it looks like normal casting animations are based on the same mechanics as ET ticks, just with different speed coefficients. If this is true, the ET casting breakpoints around your example aps are at

aps range effective aps
2.60870 - 2.72727 2.72727
2.72728 - 2.85714 2.85714
2.85715 - 3.00000 3.00000
3.00001 - 3.15789 3.15789

But nobody ever confirmed my results. So it's possible that I'm fooling myself, this is utter crap and attack speed just scales linearly, without breakpoints.
this is what i got from my experience (made this yesterrday but got no response http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7006346173#2 - read it )

so i m at 65.5 cc and 2.53 attack speed unbuffed. I tried putting on laccunis (with 9x ias and no crit) and andariels with 4.5 crit (-1.5 from storm crow) and 9x attack speed to reach 2.8 attack speed and 4k less dps (around 200k) sheet dps (same dps with both setups +-4k)

i observed at least a 20-25% dps loss - from the feeling, i didnt measure it - both in solo, and with the wiz's i play with (they noticed it too big time)

it seems to me that the 2.74 breakpoint is not more efficient than the 2.53 and at taht point, stacking more cc is actually much much better for the dps. I m running with 120msec latency so maybe i just cant take advantage of that breakpoint? From my observations at least, i m seeing huge drop in effective dps at the 2.74 breakpoint. Not sure if the servers just cant handle it or something else is going on, but i feel cc > ias after the 2.53 breakpoint. Locking is slightly better at 2.88 BUT, on mp10 solo, i dont need the extra locking as things just die so muhc faster at the 2.53 65.5 breakpoint. As i posted in that thread, the 1.5 increase in cc made a HUGE difference to the smoothness of everything (much more than the increase in attack speed - but loss of cc)

I believe the situation is more complex than what u guys have figured out so far. It seems the optimal values for ias is tied to the cc and to the displayed dmg (i d need over 250k dps with the 2.88 attack speed and at least 65.5 cc - i reckon even higher than that to actually see an increase in my actual dps .. remember that ias inflates the dmg big time -but its not really true dmg) . I m talking about sns with meteors as its definitely the most efficient build there is from my testing dmg wise.. plain sns simply does not compare (using liquify as its much better than any other rune for my cc)

these are my observations, so i think there are things missing from the picture uve painted with ias importance versus cc

edit:
maybe there are cc breakpoints for each ias.. just like when u reach > 3 attack speed u guys can lock ubers completely perfectly - not possible at 2.88 for me) maybe i ve reached a cc breakpoint for from which when i lower my cc to get to 2.88 ias, i lose that breakpoint which is more important than the breakpoint of 2.74 - maybe its equivilant to > 3 attack speed breakpoint - idk .. just some food for thought)

we should ask this guy: http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/bohemianimo-3481/wondergirl/686416 (sick gear)
@DrEgo:
The reason nobody talks about meteor here, is not that they don't like meteor, but that it behaves entirely different.
Meteor ticks don't scale with attack speed, so you can't apply the same rules as for WW.
For WW, more IAS means more casts, more ticks/cast and in consequence many more ticks/second. Which means your total AP returns increase faster than your AP costs. And your AP/second returns increase fast enough, that you can cover the higher AP/second costs that come with faster chain-casting.
Meteor doesn't work like that. It ticks once per second for X seconds and once at impact. That never changes. So the faster you cast, the harder it is to get your AP back in time before the next cast.

And that is the reason why, from a functionality point of view, Meteor sucks for CM builds.

PS: I did not run this through a simulator or calculated anything. It's just my unproven opinion.
ur opinion does match what i have experienced regarding AP return and attack speed. I reckon there probably is an attack speed number that if coupled with a cc number, gives a very balanced ap return (most of the times - it all depends on if u crit or not - but u always have ww to fall back to as ap generator - 2.53 + 65 cc seems to be one such breakpoint where it more or less is very smooth)

i disagree that meteor sucks for cm builds though (you do need a very high crit chance though). Since i switched from slow time the dmg output is just so much larger.. its not even close to pure sns.. when liquify crits thats 8 more seconds of potential crits and ap returns (2s more than winds) and more dmg per second overall.

for mp7- i guess it doesnt matter much if u have high enough dps.. but for mp10 it makes quite a bit of difference in kill times..

i m currently experimenting with improving my macro to include meteor hits in, which gives an optimum dmg/ap return to cast something (either ww or meteor) constantly

my current macro is something like this:
2 for 0.02s delay
3 for 0.02s
1 for 0.02s
left click for 0.04s
3 for 0.02s
1 for 0.02s
left click for 0.04s
3 for 0.02s
1 for 0.02s
left click for 0.04s

where 2 = nova, 3 = shards, 1 = explosive, left = ww
and in game i wind up with this macro and once sustained (just 1-2 seconds is needed for me to get enough ap generated - most of the times i throw a meteor prior to starting the lock which helps in wind-up time a lot) i keep right mouse button clicked (which is meteors) along with the other macro offcourse and aim/stutterstep (i stutterstep through normal mobs as its much faster than staying still). this gives around 1-2 meteors per second along with everything else.. 2+ elites (ubers for example) are pretty much locked (only the king uber guy i m having issues with his attack).
ur opinion does match what i have experienced regarding AP return and attack speed. I reckon there probably is an attack speed number that if coupled with a cc number, gives a very balanced ap return (most of the times - it all depends on if u crit or not - but u always have ww to fall back to as ap generator - 2.53 + 65 cc seems to be one such breakpoint where it more or less is very smooth)

i disagree that meteor sucks for cm builds though (you do need a very high crit chance though). Since i switched from slow time the dmg output is just so much larger.. its not even close to pure sns.. when liquify crits thats 8 more seconds of potential crits and ap returns (2s more than winds) and more dmg per second overall.

for mp7- i guess it doesnt matter much if u have high enough dps.. but for mp10 it makes quite a bit of difference in kill times..

i m currently experimenting with improving my macro to include meteor hits in, which gives an optimum dmg/ap return to cast something (either ww or meteor) constantly

I didn't mean it generally sucks. I'm well aware of the damage boost Meteors can give you. It's just that while WW is an AP generator, Meteor is more of an AP spender. As you said, it increases damage, but it also increases CC/APoC requirements and still can't always pay for itself. So as the "working horse" of the build it doesn't do half as good a job as WW. That doesn't mean it's bad, just that it fits another role.
I will update my profile when I get back, but if someone could help me out with what I would need to upgrade to get better results, please let me know. It is a struggle to find stuff worth switching to for cheap...or a reasonable price...not this 1 billion gold junk. or 500 mil gold junk...i have a life and all, so I cant spend all day farming for gold >_< and I refuse to spend a single penny on the RMAH!!! Barter is my preference :D Add me if you can help Shand (or anyone else) Gorthax#1382

edit: I am going to update my profile cuz some of the gear on this is not what I am currently wearing, as I was doing alkaizer runs and also swapping out gear (and currently have archon on instead of slow time stretch time) to see certain things ^_^
ive just geared my wiz again, atm i have 2.77aps and 51.5% crit chance without using pinpoint barrier. the dps however is kinda lacking (125k unbuffed), i probably could increase it a little bit by replacing the blackthorn amulet and legs (then again finding a rare trifecta with 8+ ias and cc, on top of stats and decent cd is going to suck), but then i'd only have about 450 loh and im not sure that's enough

ideas? if you want to check my profile its on europe
ive just geared my wiz again, atm i have 2.77aps and 51.5% crit chance without using pinpoint barrier. the dps however is kinda lacking (125k unbuffed), i probably could increase it a little bit by replacing the blackthorn amulet and legs (then again finding a rare trifecta with 8+ ias and cc, on top of stats and decent cd is going to suck), but then i'd only have about 450 loh and im not sure that's enough

ideas? if you want to check my profile its on europe


125k is not lacking my friend. You are underestimating yourself considerably. All those guys talking on these forums about wanting 200k are doing it to their own detriment.

For example, at 3.01 and 57% I see a full 8.6x multiplier against elites. Thats nearly 1.5m real dps. Many are getting CD gloves and amulets that arnt maxed IAS or CC and costing themselves alot of multiplier to do so.

A 200k dps player with 2.73 aps and 47% CC would likely do only the same dps as me at 170k, and take far more damage cause they would proc CM less (fewer novas and lower diamond skin up-time), as well as getting a lower return from their LoH healing.

I'm a large advocate of maxing utility and mitigation first. You're best upgrades atm would be boots with + armour and finding some more CC without dropping any defenses. My suggestion would be a nats set to replace your right hand ring.

You'll be shocked at how cheap an int+vit + 50 AR + 9% IAS nats ring is. This will improve your cc by 1.5%. On boots you'll give up 80 vit and 50 intelligence but gain an unreal amount of armour and 15 more AR as well as 5-6% melee reduction. Dodge, armour and AR all apply before diamond skin, while your life is all applied afterward.
I still want MOAR dps.......
So not worth it.

Like my next upgrade is mempo so i can use an OS wand. Well need Apocs source with it. Okay so 1.25 billion which is more than my whole toon for like 30K dps or 20%.

Or I can go trifectas all around. making 1.25 billion cheap by comparison.

I am a very cheap person so adding dps just disgusts me from a philosophical POV how it's exponential in cost. Even if I could afford it like a found a 2b manti it would be hard to spend it on a couple three items rather than upgrade my other toons and make them gods.

And make no mistake you can build a god CM for 500m or any toon for that matter. Anything else is superfluous.

So yeah oldo for like 1.5 billion you can add 30-60K dps. with three trifectas ring ring glove. Is it worth it? I bet ur whole toon netting 125K dps is less than 1.5B.

I don't think it is.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum