MP Bonus Needs Adjustment

General Discussion
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I love playing high MP. It's more challenging, and it's more fun. I would much rather have a tough battle against elites, where I'm struggling to survive, than to just blast through content as quickly as possible. Being in tough fights that force you to use tactics and manoeuvres to keep alive is just more fun, in my opinion.

However, when I'm in "EXP + MF" gain mode, I'm forced to stay on MP1-3 so I can rush through the content as quickly as possible. Despite the MF, EXP and bonus drops gained from MP, it just doesn't make up for the clearing speed you have at low MP.

So I play at high MP anyway, from time to time, to have fun. But why should I have to be forced with the choice between efficient farming and having fun? Why can't the more fun option also be the more efficient?

High MP should yield at least as much as low MP, if not more. Right now, it yields far less. I'm okay with it yielding as much (not more), so then I could be happy playing at high MP, and those who prefer low MP could happily stick to that, and we'd both be just as well rewarded for doing what we each prefer. But if it's more rewarding than low MP, I think it gives people more motivation to want to strive for higher difficulty, and that's always something a game should have.

Here's one suggestion, but please feel free to help out with your own. Improve the bonus drops for high MP. For example, we have the MP1, MP5, and MP10 bonus drops as 1%, 36%, and 100% respectively. How about make them 1%, 75%, and 275% respectively.

Over 100% means multiple possible guaranteed drops. So if MP8 has 156% bonus drops, for example, then you get a guaranteed bonus drop with each drop, plus a 56% chance for another bonus drop.

EDIT: I think another novel approach would be to make the MF, GF, and EXP bonuses from MP multiplicative, rather than additive with our current bonuses.
This is taken from the MP announcement page:

By now, some players have reached a point where they can kill monsters so fast that even Inferno provides almost no challenge, and enemies die as soon as they appear on the screen. For these players, the bottleneck for efficient farming is actually the speed at which they can traverse the map rather than how well they can dispense with enemies.

This is where Monster Power can shine. Players who can clear every Act of Inferno without much problem can increase their Monster Power for a more enjoyable and interesting challenge -- as well as better rewards -- and keep pushing their limits all the way up to Monster Power 10. Will some players be able to kill Diablo on Monster Power 10 as soon as 1.0.5 goes live? Absolutely. Will that be the most efficient Monster Power level at which to farm items? For most, probably not. Monster Power allows each individual decide what that "sweet spot" is for them.

Important parts are bolded.

Top players are still choosing low MP for farming, where their bottleneck is how fast they can traverse the map.

It is clear that, from releasing Monster Power, they wanted us to stray away from doing super fast easy-content clears as our farming methods. Yet this isn't the case. Because of the vastly inferior rewards from high MP, people aren't constantly playing the "challenging and rewarding" experience that they wanted us to.

It's not like players didn't have a way to challenge themselves before 1.05, that was less rewarding. They could have tried playing Inferno in all blue items. They could have tried to go through and beat the game with a character who never uses the AH. They could have tried all sorts of things that could give them much slower rewards, but are done entirely for the challenge. Because of the fact that MP is entirely a numbers game, and has no new qualitative challenge (and I agree with those who think that it should), playing a high MP with your current character is indistinguishable from playing Inferno in 1.04 with a character that has been artificially weakened at the proper proportions.

They didn't add MP just so we can have fun challenges aside from farming, they added MP so that farming can be a fun challenge! However, this obviously isn't the case. Going to high MP is the same as weakening your character pre-1.04, it's far less rewarding, and done only for the challenge. The goal of MP from 1.05 has not been met.

I know a lot of you think that it's a good game model for you to spend 99% of your time doing boring tedious work in order to build your character, and the other 1% having fun challenging yourself. I'm sorry, but I just cannot agree with that philosophy.
Help me out, guys! (Or give contrary critical arguments.) I think we need more encouragement to challenge ourselves in high MP than simply key farming. (Even then, mid MP is arguably more efficient than high MP in this regard.)
I like this idea, but I still don't think it's enough. You'll be swimming in a sea of useless rare items, and while the occasional legendary will still show itself, it doesn't justify the time that you lose while farming in spite of ridiculously overtuned health pools.

They need to take the base levels for gold drops, legendary chance, and XP, and they need to multiply it by an amount equal to however much extra health enemies have on each Monster Power level. The current system cheapens gold find, magic find, and XP bonuses on items, not to mention the fact that even with the Monster Power boosts in place, it's still more efficient to drop down to MP 1-3 and one-shot everything with your godslaying geared-out hulk of a character.

Honestly, I'm surprised that these kind of threads don't get more love. Or more rage, depending on how you interpret posts like mine. This is a serious problem, and all that the naysayers have to offer is "Low MP is for farming, high MP is for challenge." That right there is a bull!@#$ argument, through and through. There's a little thing in gaming called risk versus reward, and it's the entire freakin' basis for games like these. Monster Power is BROKEN, and if anyone has a legitimate reason to argue otherwise, I challenge you to bring it forth.
I may expound upon this elsewhere if people care (not holding my breath).

One thing that I feared about the combination of lowering the base Inferno difficulty and the Monster Power system is that there would be no obvious reward for incrementally upgrading gear in order to play higher at MP.

When people talk about the game's bad economy, everyone is quick to point out botting, duping, loot design, and so on. But one reason (that I don't recall ever specifically reading before) which I think that no sub-godly gear sells is that people who hit a jackpot drop and are in a position to buy sub-godly gear cash out instead. These players see no reason to buy into incremental upgrades when they have roughly as equal chance of getting a jackpot drop again in their present state as they would in buying upgrades.

I responded to this post in the thread where it was written, and this is the kind of mentality of which I speak:
If it's worth triple digits [in millions], that's at least 50 bucks, and buying diablo over again isn't worth a chest.

I don't think it's a large stretch of logic to say that the player with this kind of mindset is more common than those who are striving to obtain BIS gear in all slots. These are the kind of people who parrot lines like "nothing in the game is worth more than 1 million Gold" and see no point in trying to play A3 MP7 when they can just faceroll A3 MP0 with their sub-1M gear and have roughly the same chance at being rewarded, in terms of drops, regardless.

I think that the easiest way to give higher rewards is to exponentially increase the Gold Find rates at higher MP. I find it difficult to believe that bots will be more efficient at farming high MP than one-shotting everything in MP0, so I would think that the risk of increased inflation from botting would be minimal if the rates were right. Doing this would also compel players to strive to climb into higher MP levels, as there would be a guaranteed increased reward regardless of a streak of bad drops.
Thanks, Mustardio (EDIT: and Ammostiel), for your support. I completely agree with your last paragraph.

So when you say:

They need to take the base levels for gold drops, legendary chance, and XP, and they need to multiply it by an amount equal to however much extra health enemies have on each Monster Power level.

Should that be the replacement to the MF and additional drop bonus, or should it be in addition? Because if it's in addition, that might make high MP too good. You should note that time taken to clear content does not scale linearly with monster health, but rather, increases with diminishing returns. You have to account for overkill, and the fact that moving through empty space takes the exact same amount of time on all MP levels (a factor that I think is much bigger than people realize).

Another suggestion I have would be to make the MP MF bonuses multiply with, rather than add to our MF. (Same with EXP and GF.)

For example, someone with MF = M will find legendary items at a rate of 1 + M/100 times the base drop rate. If we get a MF bonus B from MP levels, then it simply adds to our current MF, and our legendary finding rate becomes multiplied by 1 + (M + B)/100.

Instead, what I think should happen, is it become (1 + M/100)*(1 + B/100). I.e., the bonus is now multiplicative instead of additive. So in MP4, for example, with a 100% MF bonus, our legendary finding rate actually doubles.

Ammostiel: I have always been of the opinion that there should be new creative content or acquisitions available for people who strive for the hardest challenge. This was actually the case, upon release, when Inferno alone was the biggest challenge, and you could not get high end awesome gear unless you played in it.

Unfortunately, that is not a stable design philosophy, as demonstrated by early D3 release. Back in 1.02 and earlier, when Inferno was very challenging (and ilvl63 items could only appear in Act3+), players were complaining left and right because they wanted access to everything available in the game without having to push through the toughest challenge to do so. Thus Inferno was made easier, and ilvl63 items were made available in Act 1.
To clarify, I think they need to scrap the current system that they have in place. The additive bonuses that we have right now scale extremely poorly when compared to the sheer number of hit points that enemies have on higher Monster Power levels, and the whole "you have a chance to get an extra item" deal gives you nothing but twice as much crap to fill your bags with.

My suggestion is simple; if it takes 50% longer to kill something, you should get 50% more gold from that creature, 50% more XP from that creature, and a 50% higher chance to find a legendary from that creature. If it takes 3500% longer to kill something, you should get 3500% more gold from that creature, 3500% more XP from that creature, and a 3500% higher chance to find a legendary from that creature. Then you multiply those numbers by your gold find, magic find, and bonus XP from items and paragon levels.

Does that sound insanely unbalanced? Perhaps. It would certainly flood the market with a heck of a lot more money and legendaries, not to mention people gaining a bunch more paragon levels, thus snowballing into yet more gold find and magic find. Then again, you know what else is insanely imbalanced? Taking thirty-five times as long to kill something - while it's dealing more than twice as much damage to you than it normally would - and not even doubling your chances of finding a legendary item.
It sounds unbalanced because, like I said, clearing time does not scale linearly with monster HP. Because of things like overkill and traverse speed, there's a diminishing return with the increase of clearing time with respect to monster HP. (That is, for players that can handle that MP.)

I don't think they should do something too dramatic, just because I fear that they'll go from one extreme to the other (making low MP absolutely useless). That's the biggest problem with this development team, IMO. When they think something needs changing, they don't make subtle changes and feel out the result, they make over the top dramatic changes. I just want them to do something so that I don't feel like I'm wasting my time farming high MP, which I consider more fun than low MP.

I think, with this one, they should do something more subtle. Either increase bonus drops a la the rates I suggested, or make MF/EXP/GF bonuses from MP multiplicative rather than additive with our current bonuses.

You say that bonus drops just result in more junk. That's not true at all. If you double the amount of drops, you're literally doubling the chances of finding good items.
Uhm... Dunno what to say. I like the idea.
I dont like the current mp bonuses because of the extreme scaling blizz has used. Right now the most efficient mp is mp0 for most players. For the higher geared players, top efficiency is probably at mp2/3? As people get more gear the most efficient mp will become higher. Blizz has made this curve iincrease so exponentially through high hp gains on mobs in order to keep people playing and gearing longer in the hope of farming efficiently on higher mps. Its a cheap method with debatable success.

I dont think taking 5x longer to kill a monster should equal exactly 5x more mf, but I'd like a less extreme/ less steep version of the current "bonuses vs extra mob hp" curve.
11/03/2012 08:54 PMPosted by Bottle
That's the biggest problem with this development team, IMO. When they think something needs changing, they don't make subtle changes and feel out the result, they make over the top dramatic changes.

"-then we doubled it" lol, Blizz isn't very creative with their buff/nerf percentages
I think that Monster Power 10 should be the ultimate farming mode. Every other Monster Power level should simply be a stepping stone that lesser-geared, poorly-skilled, or casual players temporarily use to get lucky enough to earn their way to the top, or rich enough to buy their way there. That being said, Monster Power 10 should be really hard. Harder than it is now, even. It should be something that everyone strives to achieve, but few players actually attain. That's what makes a compelling endgame.

Granted, my opinion of a dream come true is probably somebody else's nightmare, but you can't please everyone. Right now, Blizzard isn't pleasing either of us, so what the heck, eh? Let those suggestions roll, and hope yours is the one that gets picked.

Regardless of all this hooplah, I really, really don't think overkill should be the number one determining factor in what makes a run efficient. With Monster Power, "go as high as you can before you stop one-shotting things" is not a compelling array of choice in difficulty. I realize that this problem exists mostly due to the fact that the gap between good gear and godly gear is ridiculously high, but that's an argument for another thread entirely.
Right now MP1 might be the most effecient overall to farm in, but it won't be forever. The MP system was built to scale with gear for a long time down the road. Eventually monsters will be killed as fast on MP5 as they are on MP1. Some people are at that point already. I won't even bring up the point that key and shard farming is pretty futile on MP 0-3, so there's that too.
11/03/2012 09:36 PMPosted by Tenshard
Right now MP1 might be the most effecient overall to farm in, but it won't be forever. The MP system was built to scale with gear for a long time down the road. Eventually monsters will be killed as fast on MP5 as they are on MP1. Some people are at that point already. I won't even bring up the point that key and shard farming is pretty futile on MP 0-3, so there's that too.

But even if that occurs, then that's a fundamental problem.

If MP10 can every be cleared as fast as MP1 to 3 is being cleared right now, then the MP system has failed us. There should always be a mode that can't be facerolled by anybody.

What I believe is a great game philosophy is not reward for super fast EzPz faceroll, it should be that, at the end of a really long and epic battle, you can expect some great loot (still subject to the luck factor of RNG, of course).

I just finished a very epic long battle on MP10 vs a rare group of A4 Subjugators (what I feel is the toughest unit in the game) with Reflect Damage, and it took me quite a while. At the end, three rares dropped, none of which I would pick up. I could have found that in about 15 seconds of super fast MP1 face roll clearing.

I'm beginning to steer towards Mustardo's perspective. A massive monster scaling should result in a massive loot benefit scaling.
the problem is that tough challenging and fun fights take some time...

so maybe you roll through MP1 and you have fun playing the "hard" MP3 encounters and need ~3x as long. so naturally you'd want 3x as much reward for it.

some other player rolls through MP3 and has fun in MP6 and takes 3x as long and wants 3x the reward

and the next with MP6->MP9

so if you scale it this way you should get 27x the reward on MP9 than on MP1 - and thats waaaayyy too much.

on the other hand higher MP's aren't of much use atm (if you farm xp/item).
The xp-thing is somewhat fixed if they'd apply the xp-bonus to the base-xp and don't add it to other xp-bonuses.
So a MP0 mob who would give 100xp now +60% from items = 160 xp
atm a MP10 mob would give 100xp + 60% from items + 160% from MP = 320xp
if they's apply the 160% to the base ammount, so 100xp -> 260XP + 60% from items = 416xp it would be a start, not nearly as much as it needs to be efficient, but a start.

In terms of MF if could work similar. adding the bonus to base-values and multiplying it with equip would shorten the gap significantly and it may be too much because MF-multiplyers are higher than xp-multiplyers.

Having said that I'm agains 1:1 scaling or anything near that, it's good that MP's don't give reward 1:1 with HP-scaling, and the actual system is somewhat ok.
the item-side of things is ok'ish and could use a little buff, maybe multiply base drop chances with MP*20 and get rid of the bonus item (there is too much to identify anyway).
MP-scaling is exponential in difficulty anyway, so it's overkill to scale the item-bonus exponentially too.
This way you'd get flat double the loot (pls make it quality, not quantity) in MP5 than on MP0 (while mobs have 6.39x as much HP) atm MP5 gives whooping 125% MF - if you run with 150%mf thats less than 1/3rd better loot.

XP-Bonus on the other hand is totally underpowered. Even if the xp-multiplyer from MP multiplyes with equip-bonus and doesn't simply add it's WAY WAY to low. XP should scale at least 1:3 with mob-HP imho. And 1:3 means at least 10x as much xp per mob on MP10 than on MP0, not 2,6x as much. And even that wouldn't come near the efficiency of roflstomping low MP's if equip bonus just adds up and doesn't multiply.
Buchsbaum, why are you against 1:1 scaling? You state that twenty-seven times the reward is way too much, but you don't make it clear as to why. Instead, you offer an arbitrary multiplier that scales linearly, while health percentages scale on a steep curve. If a monster takes twenty-seven times as long to kill (in addition to dealing a significant percentage of extra damage), shouldn't it dish out twenty-seven times the quality of loot? I don't understand why there seems to be a widespread fear of challenge-appropriate drops.
the why is simple: if you're only able to do MP1, and at a slow speed at that, you get far less gear anyway -> it's harder to improve your gear, because you can't sell anything (and we have this to a big degree allready)
If MP9 would drop 27x as much as MP1 it would only flood the market with even more items, making it even harder to sell anything. (for me it would be good ofc, because i'm able to do high MP's, but let's look at the big picture)

1:1 scaling doesn't work because your killspeed doesn't scale with HP 1:1 anyway.
A Monk for example does crazy single-target-dmg, but he needs ~5s per enemy to fill the screen with energy-twisters, enabling him to kill former 1-hit mobs with 10x as much HP in less than 10 hits. A WW-Barbs scales even better with more HP/longer fights because of fury-management beside his need to get some tornados out first. Other classes work similar I'd guess...

On the other hand you may need 5s now for an enemy and 10s for an enemy with double-HP, but the walk-distance between them stays the same, so 10s for double loot would be better than 2x5s for normal loot.

so the thing with MP-scaling is on one side to give the incentive to gear up and do high MP's (atm it's really only for the Hellfire Ring), and on the other side you don't want to enhance the "rich-get-richer, poor-stay-poor"-thing.
If you scale reward exponential with exponential difficulty it's really only squaring the reward for low difficulty, because you never ever will find more items to sell, because everybody else will find just as much.

It's the way items in the D3-economy work. No matter how many items anyone finds, there is only so much gold to be spent in any given amount of time. So it's a scaling issue how much percent AH-value in gear each person gets per hour spent killing stuff.
So for example: in 1.04 I could kill 4x as fast as player x, so I get 4x as much loot as player x, so I get 4x as much gold as player x (with the same mf.... dropluck is a statistical illusion)
If there are 100mil gold to be spent in the 1h I and player X play, I'd get 80mil and he 20mil, just because I kill 4x as much.
Having 4x the killspeed in 1.04 is probably 10x the effective dps or more - here comes movementspeed into play as well.
So now after 1.05 I can do my 10x as much dps against 10x as much HP and kill as fast as player x, only with those 10x as much hp - and you say I should get 10x as much loot?
This would make the gap larger and the game even more frustrating for "badly" geared players, and many would quit after a while - and those are the players who buy the stuff I find....

Sure, there needs to be an incentive to gear up for higher MP's, but items are the wrong route and XP would only solve the issue until most players are paragon100.
The main problem with high MP is Blizzard went waaaaay overboard with the HP buffs without corresponding rewards in the form of bonus MF (or otherwise). They need to do three things:

1. Scale back the HP buffs in higher MP levels. Not everything needs to have 200 billion hp.
2. Scale up the monster damage with increasing MP (slightly).
3. Increase MF _and experience_ bonuses with increasing MP (slightly) so MP0-1 is not trivially the optimum difficulty to farm at.
Buchsbaum, you already get ten times as much loot, if you're playing "correctly". Farm MP 1 several times faster than the other guy, and get several times as many legendaries in the same amount of time. The only difference under my suggestion would be that on a higher Monster Power level, you'd spend less time running from pack to pack, and more time putting some effort into killing monsters that actually have a chance to kill you back.

I have three goals in mind with my suggestion. The first is to eliminate the need for travel time to be the greatest determining factor in farming efficiency. The second is to make 'challenging' synonymous with 'rewarding'.

The third is to make the game feel right. To make it feel fun. To make it feel like when you finish an epic, several-minute-long battle with a crazy elite pack, you actually have a decent chance of getting something better than you would have gotten if you'd spent ten seconds killing that same elite with no monster power.

Playing on Monster Power 10 for anything other than key runs and uber bosses is just pathetically unrewarding right now. It's a problem. I'm coming up with a solution using the most basic logic that you could possibly use; more time spent equals better loot gained. BETTER loot gained, mind you, not MORE loot gained. I pity the man who wants to spend even longer weaseling his mouse through all the crap drops to click on the one thing on the floor that might be half-decent.
If they make increase it too much for higher MP levels however, it just further increases the gap between people who can't handle high MP levels, and people who can.

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