R.I.P. EHP

Barbarian
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Patch after patch ever since 1.0.4 EHP's relevance has been losing its footing, Legendary buff afer buff, Monster damage nerf after nerf after nerf, we are now at this Diablo 3 crossroad today where the once dependable EHP-horse needs to be dragged out behind its barn and shot.

Theres been several nails being drivin into his coffin for months now and now it is finally sealed shut, despite some religious nuts who stand screaming utop his grave who still wont this dead horse stay dead, this term EHP needs to stay dead as it no longer represents any meaning whatsoever in the terms of tankyness or survivability.

If you invent a system of EHP - a mathematically calculated formula specifically designed to favor some stats and not others in order to arrive to a numeric SURVIVABILITY consensus then you cannot dis-regard certain stats that highly increase survivability such as the NUMBER 1 STAT in the game which increases survivability, aka Lifesteal, and which happens to be tied directly to Dps.

Times have changed, You cant expect people to believe EHP as a valid measurement of Anything anymore until it gets updating, its been 4 months several changes and patches have launched since, and still no update to the formula making its number mean absolutely nothing.

Actually wait I take that back, now that we have Monster Levels that number actually does mean something. It's clear now that in Monster Levels after a certain point the More EHP (or Effective health points) you have actually makes you LESS effective at killing, healing, no matter what Level Power is set to. So from now on EHP = inEffective Handicap Points! Woohoo!

How handicap are you..? How much EHP do you have?!

We dont need EHP to make people waste more money than they need to on gimping their gear because of some utterly useless out-dated formula claiming that more ALWAYS = better when more actually is worse. 50k HP is fine. 650 resistance is fine. Any more is gimpsauce.

Even on level 10. Going beyond 50/650 hinders your char. EHP can go /jerk

But First! Just For Fun. Lets take a stroll through the life and death Okay just the death lol! of EHP

The Death of EHP >>

Nail 1: Buffed Legendarys in 1.0.4

Nail 2: MP Levels introduced favoring heavily the lower and medium mp levels and Punishing the Top MP levels.

Nail 3: RTLW Coefficient nerfed. Force Barbs into using Lifesteal. Now all healing is based off of DPS..Rip Loh.

Nail 4: Jewelry buffed. Insane DPS now achievable. Further increase of Lifesteals effectiveness.

Nail 5: All Damage in MP levels further nerfed across the board reducing all damage by up to 50%

These changes make gearing towards EHP In-Effective. Any way you slice it. The more EHP you have the less effective you are. Period. At ANY mp level.

R.I.P EHP

/flower
ITT: An OP who can't solo Ubers -- calls out EHP for being useless.
I can Acrimony :) I solo'd all 3 portals last night and one shot each of them with the exception of Turmoil, which took 2 tries, I think it was a waste of portals tbh..seeing that they sell at 5 mil each in uber runs.
And doesn't 50khp and 650 all res result in an ehp that's quite high? So I can say something isn't important once that something is enough?
I agree. I wouldn't have wasted three portals on MP1 either.
I think EHP has to give way to a new measure called sustainability. Once you are no longer in danger of dying by a large hit or jailer/fire/arcane combo, then we are talking about another thing entirely than EHP. EHP to me is the amount of burst damage that one can take. I think a formula (for WW barbs at least) that would be more helpful is if you took the flat amount of damage an elite at MP10 would do to your character and make that a negative value, then calculate how much regen you could generate per monster + regen from other sources.

Sustainability = (Amount of Life Regeneration from LS/LoH/Skills/Other Sources) - ((Damage of MP10 Elite Per second) * (1 - Percentage of damage mitigation))

I could have 1 billion EHP but I would still die to something that hit me for 1 damage 1 billion times if I regenerated zero health. I still think EHP has its place, but mostly to tell you how much margin for error you have for mistakes once you are no longer in danger of dying to burst damage. Sustainability would be a more accurate measure than of how you could handle different Monster Power levels.

I harken this to modern day sports and the plethora of different statistics to measure player performance. For example, basketball has PPG/APG/RPG which measures player performacne but then it also has efficiency which takes into account those stats and more to give a more complete measure of player performance. On top of that it has True Shooting Percentage to give a measure of how good a player is at just shooting the ball.

EDIT: EHP doesn't have to give way as in not be relevant, I still think it is relevant but sustainability might be even more important once you pass a certain threshold of EHP.

EDIT2: An example might help to illustrate my point. Would you rather have 1 million EHP and and 100k life regen against a monster that hits for 150k damage every second or 500k EHP and 200k life regen against that same monster. This is of course in favor of more Sustainability. EHP would be a better measure if you had a monster hitting for 500k burst damage (but you had sufficient life regen with both 1 million EHP and 500k EHP) then you would want 1 million EHP so you don't get one shotted. These are very controlled environments but it is to drive home the point of where sustainability can be more informative of a characters ability (or inability) to survive in a given MP setting.
Finally, another one of these threads.
To all Barbs out there,

EHP is cool, if you want to make your character better and have a challenge, I suggest trying to have both EHP and DPS increase at the same time. Now obviously, you dont need extreme amount of EHP to survive anymore, but if you have high DPS, high EHP, and high Life Steal, then you will be achieving a much better character than one without the high levels in all aspects of the game. Please quite arguing about this topic, as it has been proven that high life steal and dps works as well.... different ways to skin a cat. I am willing to bet the majority of you calling out EHP couldnt do MP10 runs without dying prior to the nerf. I was having trouble with it and my EHP was 2.7 MIL, I wouldnt die but there were some close calls.

On a personal note, if I wanted a monster DPS character, I would have not went Barbarian. I feel the barb is supposed to have high levels of EHP and I personally feel it looks pretty stupid when Barbs are dying in game ahead of other classes such as wizards and demon hunters. Barbs are supposed to be big and powerful in my opinion.
I feel ya bro, haters gonna hate.
To all Barbs out there,

EHP is cool, if you want to make your character better and have a challenge, I suggest trying to have both EHP and DPS increase at the same time. Now obviously, you dont need extreme amount of EHP to survive anymore, but if you have high DPS, high EHP, and high Life Steal, then you will be achieving a much better character than one without the high levels in all aspects of the game. Please quite arguing about this topic, as it has been proven that high life steal and dps works as well.... different ways to skin a cat. I am willing to bet the majority of you calling out EHP couldnt do MP10 runs without dying prior to the nerf. I was having trouble with it and my EHP was 2.7 MIL, I wouldnt die but there were some close calls.

On a personal note, if I wanted a monster DPS character, I would have not went Barbarian. I feel the barb is supposed to have high levels of EHP and I personally feel it looks pretty stupid when Barbs are dying in game ahead of other classes such as wizards and demon hunters. Barbs are supposed to be big and powerful in my opinion.


That's not much of a challenge since EHP is easy to acquire now that it has been made useless *sarcasm*. I'm more impressed that Trixie wrote all that and still wears an amethyst in the helm.

Let's summarize the naysayers about EHP:
1) Too expensive:
a) I agree that acquiring layers of defensive gear bonuses is very expensive. The higher the bonus, the pricier it is. I have been looking for weeks now to upgrade my pants, but I'm fighting in bidding wars against players who share the same beliefs. These bidding wars go for hundreds of millions -- sometimes into the billions. It's easy to acquire Inna's Temperance given that it can roll <100 strength and <100 vitality. It's not as easy to acquire the <500 core stats on the Archon Faulds.
b) In addition, vitality and life bonuses are almost impossibly hard to stack on the gear. It's a commitment to saving and a commitment to understanding where and how to get it on the gear. That takes intelligence. Hiding behind the facade of wanting attack speed an an extra critical hit chance is simple and a very good choice if your gear can bear it. The majority of players who buy Inna's are inadequately geared -- see Enxius for example.

2) Monster damage has been reduced, so EHP isn't as valuable:
a) It's true. But no MP has been hit harder than MP10. While all levels were reduced by 25%, the total damage reduction was hardest hit in the hardest difficulty. This means that the content is more accessible to undergeared players.
b) However, I can reference some very well known players who have billions of gold invested in their gear, substantial damage per second that outpaces my current, and have loads of playing ability, but were forced to equip a shield. I have a few of those on my friend's list and they were actually upset by the nerf -- it was a challenge for them and even for myself (and apparently you as well). The majority of players who are discounting EHP have never experienced the ridiculous monster damage before it was nerfed.

3) EHP is an invalid calculation:
a) Uhhh, well, no, it's not. Since many of the people attempting to invalidate the calculation are redoing grade eight for the third time, it would be better to break down what EHP is:
... i) ... known as Effective Health Pool
... ii) ... combines -- without distortions -- a multidimensional aggregate of core stats like health pool, dodge chance, block chance, block amount, resistances to elemental/DoT attacks, armour, etc.
... iii) ... a metric to define a player's build

Check this video out of a guy with a ridiculous EHP pool: www.youtube.com/watch?v=z59SvR4a9nE&feature=youtu.be

Looks like EHP actually reduced the damage taken. But he was probably using life steal or something when none of us were looking.

In summary, EHP invaluable -- typewriter monkeys like Enxius and WayneOld are chained to a build that won't work for anything else.
Oh, and one more thing to Enxius -- I know you're upset I didn't accept your friend request, but don't write threads like these after leaving a message saying "I want GG Barbs on my friends list" if you didn't believe in the validity of EHP.

Owned. Trolled. See ya.
I agree with BALLER, and yes I am a believer of EHP. I can cite a lot of cases wherein EHP will help you a lot for example if you are doing MP8 Uber missions sometimes when you encounter an elite mob with Molten Desc affixes and worse there are two of them or you go to fields trying to kill the Key Warden and then suddenly a group of Trees also join into the fray.

In my humble opinion more EHP is definitely better but also not to the point that you are already gimping your DPS.
I agree with BALLER, and yes I am a believer of EHP. I can site a lot of cases wherein EHP will help you a lot for example if you are doing MP8 Uber missions sometimes when you encounter an elite mob with Molten Desc affixes and worse there are two of them or you go to fields trying to kill the Key Warden and then suddenly a group of Trees also join into the fray.

In my humble opinion more EHP is definitely better but also not to the point that you are already gimping your DPS.


I agree. Judging by your Barbarian's build, you got 'it'. Awesome work :)
oh look another one of these threads
Very well said Acrinomy, I dont mind these claims of Ehp being useless these guys will be 1 shot when Pvp comes around, I have just 800k ehp but 170+ Dps with only passives I tried to use innas pants but lose to much Ehp and just for 8k more dps. I dont like the thought of going backwards. A truly godly barb has a balance of Ehp and Dps.

To aquire 200k dps is easy and so is 2million Ehp, but to have a perfect balance of them both, that is what it truly means to be godly.


Check this video out of a guy with a ridiculous EHP pool: www.youtube.com/watch?v=z59SvR4a9nE&feature=youtu.be

Looks like EHP actually reduced the damage taken. But he was probably using life steal or something when none of us were looking.


He has a lot of life regen, would estimate over 4000. Contrary to your beliefs he IS taking a lot of damage, he just has too much of a health pool for you notice him losing that much health. You will notice one of the fire balls hit him for around 30k.


Check this video out of a guy with a ridiculous EHP pool: www.youtube.com/watch?v=z59SvR4a9nE&feature=youtu.be

Looks like EHP actually reduced the damage taken. But he was probably using life steal or something when none of us were looking.


He has a lot of life regen, would estimate over 4000. Contrary to your beliefs he IS taking a lot of damage, he just has too much of a health pool for you notice him losing that much health. You will notice one of the fire balls hit him for around 30k.


Might want to look up what EHP entails. It includes a health pool.

Edit: It's too bad he's regearing. You would noticed his near 8k armour, 800+ AR, and a litany of other EHP bonus. Now reconsider how many Barbarians could handle that kind of damage without his damage mitigation.
I think we need to consider EHP change per second, to be able to compare it properly with DPS which is also a per second quantity.

EHP by itself was valuable when most barbs used revenge and charge (possibly revel, too) as the primary source of healing. Since the healing was scaled to %Life, having more HP as well as mitigation vastly increased the efficacy of those spells.

Later on, the double tornado build showed us that having a huge amount of steady life return (high LOH + fast AOE tornado attacks) would allow us to get by with much lower EHP, as long as we had enough to handle the largest bursts of damage without dying. With each patch, the damage has been reduced so the EHP needed to withstand those bursts has lowered each time. Blizzard also cited LOH being too effective with sprint as their reason for the nerf to sprint's proc coefficient.

Nowadays, we all run around with high DPS and lifesteal, which complicates things further. Rather than having defense and offense be separate goals, higher DPS would result in higher healing. Additionally, a positive EHP/s means you can stay in the fray indefinitely, so that results in high effective DPS.
Oh, and one more thing to Enxius -- I know you're upset I didn't accept your friend request, but don't write threads like these after leaving a message saying "I want GG Barbs on my friends list" if you didn't believe in the validity of EHP.

Owned. Trolled. See ya.


Not really owned but ok :P Im actually not the d*ck you think I am, I know I've trash talked EHP but that has nothing to do with you or your personality I think people can play how they want theres nothing wrong with playing super tanky sword and board style.

The main reason I posted here is to help those people more than anyone, because EHP, a method at which at one point did a decent job at representing survivability, just doesn't anymore. At all. That number DOES NOT EQUAL SURVIVABILITY. The game has evolved a lot, HEALING is a BIG part of survivability now. However EHP has not evolved to add healing into its equation so its pretty worthless now. So..what good is it? If EHP does not = survivability now what purpose does it serve.

Now days Players can roll into mp10 with 400rez 40k hp crazy high DPS 6% lifesteal and stand in 3 desecrates a pool of slime and wave hi at the arcane beam as it passes through their legs thanks to Crazy DPS and Lifesteal on mp10. Is that not survivability via massive healing?

EHP the number does not represent anything anymore.

That being said, I like you acrimony..where we differ besides me being right about EHP and you being insanely wrong is I can separate playstyle from friendship. It's just a game =) I have a large group of friends and not to brag? but theyre some of the most well known players in Diablo 3, and at one point you used to be one of those people in the Barb forums, but you arent doing yourself any favors as of late by clutching onto EHP with the grip of death like you have been.

EHP died bro, let it go.

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