R.I.P. EHP

Barbarian
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Im taking this time to promote my sick Ubers Mp10 only team. We're almost down to 10 minute ring runs now killing the 3 uber bosses on mp10 in under 60 seconds each, and about 40 seconds per champ for the 5 stack. Anyone can add me we do free runs when no paying customers are online.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004014590?page=1#2
Shameless plug but its my thread so Ill do it if i want!

If you invent a system of EHP - a mathematically calculated formula specifically designed to favor some stats and not others in order to arrive to a numeric SURVIVABILITY consensus then you cannot dis-regard certain stats that highly increase survivability such as the NUMBER 1 STAT in the game which increases survivability, aka Lifesteal, and which happens to be tied directly to Dps.


I don't understand what you're trying to say, or perhaps you don't understand that EHP stands for Effective Hit Points.

Damage does not contribute to Effective Hit Points, and neither does LoH or Life Steal. That you may feel or observe that the EHP concept gets incorrectly substituted for overall survivability, doesn't change what EHP is: a well defined, quantitative value.

The EHP equation also allows one to obtain all sorts of other useful information.
What makes a hitpoint 'Effective?'

Healing does. Then mitigation through resistance and armor, and much much further down the line Vitality.

What good is having a Hitpoint if that Hitpoint is never going to be replenished?

Without Healing, Hitpoints are INCREDIBLY in-effective,. hence the ineffectiveness of the EHP formula.

You could have 2 million EHP as proclaimed by DiabloProgress and with 0 lifesteal and 30k DPS, Would that be Effective? but since you have 2 mil EHP then you win right? Wrong. Thats the opposite of effective. The problem is some people put so much focus on EHP that it makes them less effective.
What makes a hitpoint 'Effective?'

Healing does. Then mitigation through resistance and armor, and much much further down the line Vitality.

What good is having a Hitpoint if that Hitpoint is never going to be replenished?

Without Healing, Hitpoints are INCREDIBLY in-effective, hence the ineffectiveness of the EHP formula.

You could have 2 million EHP as proclaimed by DiabloProgress and with 0 lifesteal and 30k DPS, Would that be Effective? but since you have 2 mil EHP then you win right? Wrong. Thats the opposite of effective. The problem is some people put so much focus on EHP that it makes them less effective.


Now you're equivocating 'effective'...

You might as well say that dps is useless without some HP. They are quantities of different dimensions (like length and time), just as EHP and LoH/LS are of different dimension.

So, suppose the EHP term is dead. Someone wants to know what percentage of their life an arcane beam tick will hit for, or the fly swarm from uber magdha, or how many seconds they can stand in a desecrator before dying. How would such scenarios be discussed without the term EHP?

The EHP term doesn't need any updating. It's a precise, mathematical value (just algebra on the damage reduction formula). Perhaps what you're advocating for is a change in general perception of what constitutes survivability, but it seems you're going about it in a convoluted and logically insufficient manner.
They way EHP has been used and still is used on these forums is not in a 'freeze-time' paused simulator scenario. People relate EHP with overall tankyness, or survivability. Still, if EHP is only usefull for stopped time or disconnect moments where no other factors come into play I still fail to see how that would ever be beneficial since it doesnt replicate in game activity.
11/11/2012 01:57 AMPosted by Enxius
They way EHP has been used and still is used on these forums is not in a 'freeze-time' paused simulator scenario. People relate EHP with overall tankyness, or survivability.


Relate does not mean completely define. Posts I read in this forum generally advocate reductions, HP, and life regain.


Still, if EHP is only usefull for stopped time or disconnect moments where no other factors come into play I still fail to see how that would ever be beneficial since it doesnt replicate in game activity.


Your conclusion is based on your premise, but your premise is not true.

At one extreme, it is viable for various inferno content to be played with high EHP and a minimum of LS/LoH (e.g. 0 LS/LoH). The game has health globes and the barb class has some skills that replenish life.

At the other extreme, where a barb has a minimum of EHP (e.g. 5k hp, 10 all resist, 3k armor) but a maximum of LS/LoH, they will be one-shot by numerous inferno white mobs.

How does this show EHP is dead? If anything, EHP is a more fundamentally important statistic that synergizes with life regain, with the degree varying with reduction amounts. Both are important, but it's easier to do without life regain gear stats.
Very well said Acrinomy, I dont mind these claims of Ehp being useless these guys will be 1 shot when Pvp comes around, I have just 800k ehp but 170+ Dps with only passives I tried to use innas pants but lose to much Ehp and just for 8k more dps. I dont like the thought of going backwards. A truly godly barb has a balance of Ehp and Dps.

To aquire 200k dps is easy and so is 2million Ehp, but to have a perfect balance of them both, that is what it truly means to be godly.


+1

, as it has been proven that high life steal and dps works as well.... different ways to skin a cat.


I kinda disagree with this statement even tho i don't have very high dps
As a ww barb EHP should be seen as the burst of damage one can take before dying , others here have explained it better + there are the run-aways with reflect molten poison, not to mention the wasp in blackcannions on mp10 ( i hope Enxius and wayne find her with ilusions/shielding/reflect lolz)

Take 1.0.4 the average dps oriented barb had 300-400k EHP now the average dps oriented barb(250k dps + ) has at least 700k EHP (obviously not noobs like enxius and wayne) this should speak volumes by itself how important EHP is

For further reference for all the barbs who don't know what to do/how to gear this is truly a beast

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/TheNoseKnows-1451/hero/1903576
Very well said Acrinomy, I dont mind these claims of Ehp being useless these guys will be 1 shot when Pvp comes around, I have just 800k ehp but 170+ Dps with only passives I tried to use innas pants but lose to much Ehp and just for 8k more dps. I dont like the thought of going backwards. A truly godly barb has a balance of Ehp and Dps.

To aquire 200k dps is easy and so is 2million Ehp, but to have a perfect balance of them both, that is what it truly means to be godly.


+1


+1
Sad to see there are really so little players who can balance EHP and DPS.
Guess that's the reason why acrimony shines so brightly... ARRGHHH.....
i think high EHP only s*cks if you have poor DPS, but if you can balance both i don't see any problem with that.
OP is a funny guy.

He made some valid points, but of course not everyone will agree or live by it. Which is fine, because in return, EHP items won't be as expensive. Although there are builds outside of WW barbs that need much less EHP to be viable, it still doesn't mean that EHP is useless.

Just wait it out until PvP and everyone will soon find out that balanced barbs will take the top of the hill. I mean balanced with EHP and DPS, as a lot of posters here can show that they have. Enxius hasn't realized that it's possible to get both (the means to getting that type of gear is up to the player).

As others have also mentioned, it's VERY EASY and CHEAP to acquire gear that favors EHP or DPS to the far extremes. Balancing both is where it gets tricky and expensive.

The only thing that bothers me is how Enxius logged out with ALL of his buffs on before posting this thread...
you don't have to tell me EHP is valuable. I love having a good balance of EHP and DPS...my ultimate goal it to have about 150-200K DPS unbuffed and 1.5 mil EHP or so.
EHP is just one calculated factor that helps determine performance in game. DPS and heal backs are other calculated factors. It's ridiculous to state that "EHP is dead" as you'll need a certain level of EHP to perform well. Oh sure, patches might have lowered the threshold to survive, but the factor is still there.

Someone mentioned that player with 400 res all and 40k HP surviving the toughest scenarios...take that same guy and lower his EHP even further. There's a point where no amount of DPS or heal backs will help you. EHP will always be a factor somehow.
Ehp might be usefull when pvp comes out... I think its pretty stupid to waste billions of gold to get high ehp so you are prepared for pvp. No one really knows what pvp will be like. There might be pvp only gear like in wow and there might even be some whole new thing. So preparing for some fictional scenario where ehp is relevant is somewhat stupid - would be like putting a raincoat on in summer times just because there might be rain - who knows?
So if you guys ever see a dude with a yellow raincoat and some green rubber boots walking around doing summer times - you can be pretty sure... Its acrimony! lol
I have to agree with Enxius in that there is a minimum EHP needed to not die as long as you can sustain health (LOH, LS, etc) but everything over that threshold is just gravy. This threshold will be different for each barb due to differences in DPS, LS, LOH, Skill, Mitigation. I'm talking pure PVE here because that's the only option we have now.

Also, almost all barbs use red gems. If you really want more ehp its not difficult to switch them to purple.
I made a post comparing EHP(surviability) vs sustainability not to long ago and made an important point that all barbs need a proper combination of both given an MP level. To say that neither is important is a bloody farce and proves that you do not understand the way the class works.

To dismiss EHP as useless when you got over 600 all res, lots of HP and AC is a contridiction in itself.

I HAVE always believed that EHP and sustainability needed to work in concert and while I am not the most well geared player, for the amount of gold invested (~150mil) I believe I have some of the best all round stats you could wish for. My focus on proper balance is the reason why I can run all MP levels, there are alot of other barbs out there with similar dps nunbers that used a similar of even inferior budget, but I have yet to se one capable of running MP10 side by side with me without dying...

So yeah, the EHP gear check might not be AS high as it used to be, but EHP is far from dead... If the OP wants to debate that one he should run MP10 with ~200 all res, 35k hp and 4.5k AC and then tell us how he feels:)
I agree with OP in that EHP is NOT the most effective way to gauge a person's SURVIVABILITY but that does not mean that EHP is totally useless. What good is sustain if you get 2shot in 1 s? To me survivability is composed of multiple factors including all EHP stats (mitigation, hp, etc.), sustain stats (LS/LOH, skills like revenge/rend etc.), and mobility/cc. Having a good balance of each one, especially the first two is important for overall survivability. EHP is not as important as it used to be as a SOLE measurement of survivability but it still is an important stat to consider in your gearing to allow for flexibility and overall adaptation to in-game situations.

And to everyone speculating about how important it is going to be in PVP it's completely pointless to guess about it right now since we have no idea how PVP is going to be handled and how skills/stats are going to be changed for PVP.
Was a pure tank pre any patch running act 3 clears with archon wiz.

EHP is still cool. Gives you a lot of comfort in your runs. DH have to clear more trash in general.

I still have high EHP, although a little hidden (high vit with revenge and charge %based heals) and I still rocks.

I have a farm gear on but you can see what I have achieved with medium-decent gear (non-ww). Chest and boots were found.

With a LL Skorn i'd go full damage with berserker rage, ruth, weap mast.

I do good hidden damage cus of fished rend crits.

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