[Guide] Budget Guide: 100K DPS/400K EHP Monk

Monk
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So yeah, I can't answer the question because I honestly don't know. Hopefully, I'll have a better idea by the end of the weekend.


You might find yourself lowering your DPS for more sustain like I did. I drifted towards the legendaries for their hidden damage and double chance on proc rates (see my 5.6% stun MH fist). I spent around 35m so far on this iteration of my monk, and have gone as high as 80k and as low as 40k to test multiple build types at multiple MP levels.

I found quite a range of successes and failures. I have used just about every build type for several key runs to guage their effectiveness. I have tried a 2-h TR build.

What I found was that I needed multiple types of sustain in higher MP levels. I really need some LS to take advantage of SW damage, but so far have not gotten something that offers the reward of the WKL and FOA combo. I am probably going to drop the CD on my AZ or WKL if I can find one with LS and then try to make up for the loss of CD somewhere. It will be rough.

My main joy with my current gear is the ease that I take down rares and bosses. My main issue is Moltan/Frozen/Arcane or any combo with Reflect. Not having a good time with that. I need LS bad for reflect.

I don't want to analyze gear too much in this thread, so let me just say this. Your monk is geared in a way that is quite the opposite of what my philosophy is suggesting because your armor is so low. Not sure if it's in "glass cannon monk" territory, but 3200 armor is LOW.

The premise in my guide is that high sustain does not substitute for good defence. Please re-read section 1.4 found here http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7005435708#4 for more clarification.

Thanks for your feedback though. I am considering dropping some DPS to experiment with a fist weapon being offered to me that gives me LS and LpSS and curious to see the outcome. I am confident that having strong fundamental defence will make sustain more effective. I'm still short of my ultimate armor goal, which is somewhere close to 6K armor, which looks like a "sweet spot" for combination between armor and resistances for maximum EHP.
i would put nameless at MP7 with the current setup, maybe MP8 with backlash+guardians path build.
for 2,9% lifesteal to work alone a raise of about 30-40k dps should sort it. or just getting a 2nd lifesteal wep and be ok for MP9/10 already, survivalwise. (maybe with a little gain in EHP tho first)
i would put nameless at MP7 with the current setup, maybe MP8 with backlash+guardians path build.
for 2,9% lifesteal to work alone a raise of about 30-40k dps should sort it. or just getting a 2nd lifesteal wep and be ok for MP9/10 already, survivalwise. (maybe with a little gain in EHP tho first)

Oh man, thanks for the vote of confidence. Now I feel the pressure!!! :)
Great guide Nameless, very informative, great way to get 100k+ dps for 50m. I think 50m is a good budget for most monks now as with 1.0.5, there is a decent amount of gear dropping, lowering prices and giving everyone the ability to sell something, unless RNG really hates you :P

One thing you stated that a lot of people are doing, not only monks, is that they are trying to run MP levels beyond their gear, they need to know their limit and stay within it.

LpSS is def the way to go, a lot of monks are complaining about not having LS on other items such as a belt, but its not they way we were intended to be used. When you have a Mantra that has no CD, costs 50 spirit and has a bonus in the first 3 secs, LpSS HAS to be used. My OH weapon will most likely stay there forever, unless one with base CD comes along. It cost me 2m and has 300 LoH and 61LpSS.

I think 5k-6k armor and 700ar is a good thing to aim for damage reduction wise, but thats my opinion.
well, with my current gear i got some more EHP in the bank and more lifesteal, but about 10k behind in dps. tho i have no troubles surviving MP10, but i need about 2-3 mins per pack on avarage, can go up to 5-6 or even 8 if extrahealth or healthlink and if the affixes deny facetank.

my eu armory http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/gReMLiN-1825/hero/3698370

i used to farm with a buddy for keys/ubers on MP6-8. he always was a bit ahead in dps of me, but less EHP and less sustain. your setup is similar with what he got as we were on MP7.
he needed to play carefully tho on some affixes and died here and there, but solo you got follower buffs. and if i misjudge it, then MP6 anyday for sure.
Solid guide. It is sometimes painful to look back at my path to getting my gear to where I am now, as there have been some pieces that pigeon-holed me into making very expensive upgrades as you described. While I have some advantages to your gear (more LS / MS mainly) I've spent closer to 200m on my gear for similar DPS / Mitigation, and that's with having my gloves, helm, and chest be drops.
Great guide Nameless, very informative, great way to get 100k+ dps for 50m. I think 50m is a good budget for most monks now as with 1.0.5, there is a decent amount of gear dropping, lowering prices and giving everyone the ability to sell something, unless RNG really hates you :P

One thing you stated that a lot of people are doing, not only monks, is that they are trying to run MP levels beyond their gear, they need to know their limit and stay within it.

LpSS is def the way to go, a lot of monks are complaining about not having LS on other items such as a belt, but its not they way we were intended to be used. When you have a Mantra that has no CD, costs 50 spirit and has a bonus in the first 3 secs, LpSS HAS to be used. My OH weapon will most likely stay there forever, unless one with base CD comes along. It cost me 2m and has 300 LoH and 61LpSS.

I think 5k-6k armor and 700ar is a good thing to aim for damage reduction wise, but thats my opinion.

I am getting such amazing feedback. Thanks for the suggestions -- I am totally going to try the LpSS thing this weekend. Hambone07si offered a good looking fist to give me a first shot to see how that goes.
11/08/2012 01:12 PMPosted by Nameless
don't want to analyze gear too much in this thread, so let me just say this. Your monk is geared in a way that is quite the opposite of what my philosophy is suggesting because your armor is so low. Not sure if it's in "glass cannon monk" territory, but 3200 armor is LOW.


If I use STI I go up to 4600. And my AR is around 760, my health is 37k, so I am not even close to "glass cannon". So at your 5100 armor, you are 500 over me which = 50 AR. And since my AR is higher than yours (looks like yours is 650), meaning I am overall about 50 AR higher than you (not taking into account some diminishing returns of course), you are almost calling yourself a glass cannon right?

Remember, per your quote, 10 armor = 1 all resist. So even with me NOT using STI, you are very close to my EHP. If I switch to STI, my EHP goes higher than yours. Even without it, my EHP is higher than yours because I am not using the %life gem, which would boost me way above your EHP.

It is just math!
11/08/2012 01:28 PMPosted by ENFORC3R
LpSS is def the way to go, a lot of monks are complaining about not having LS on other items such as a belt, but its not they way we were intended to be used. When you have a Mantra that has no CD, costs 50 spirit and has a bonus in the first 3 secs, LpSS HAS to be used.


I could not agree more.

I specifically went for the Innas helm I am wearing because it has a free transcendence on it. Batch that with transcendence and I found my sustain was much better than putting the skill into STI for mitigation.

I went back and forth on this testing for quite a while on a "lucky" double pack last night -
Pack A: WW dudes with Moltan, Reflect, Arcane
Pack B: Snake Dudes with Moltan, Desecration, Reflect

The armor bonues from STI of 1400 = 140 resist, but that basically amounted to 8% damage mitigation. By going transcendence + LPSS I was far more effective. All I need now is some LS to go with my LPSS, LOH, and LPS. I think a litte of each is key to sustain at lower DPS levels (under 150k).
If I use STI I go up to 4600. And my AR is around 760, my health is 37k, so I am not even close to "glass cannon". So at your 5100 armor, you are 500 over me which = 50 AR. And since my AR is higher than yours (looks like yours is 650), meaning I am overall about 50 AR higher than you (not taking into account some diminishing returns of course), you are almost calling yourself a glass cannon right?

Remember, per your quote, 10 armor = 1 all resist. So even with me NOT using STI, you are very close to my EHP. If I switch to STI, my EHP goes higher than yours. Even without it, my EHP is higher than yours because I am not using the %life gem, which would boost me way above your EHP.

It is just math!

Yes, you are correct. That's why I never put you in glass cannon category. But from what I saw, you don't use STI so I was just going based on your current set up. The 10:1 ratio is using the raw numbers to calculate damage reduction. Once you use that to calculate EHP and the weighting changes, it does something funny and hard to describe without referencing the actual equations. As it turns out, changes in armor actually affects the impact of resistances and vice versa. At least, that's what the math shows me.

If I were to use your raw numbers as they are right now (without STI and life gem), your EHP is showing 345K ish, compared to my 428K ish. It shows that your effective health pool difference of about 75K. It's true, doesn't seem like much, but I think it's still a difference - it may mean the difference between being able to escape ground effects or ranged mobs.

Furthermore, without STI, each resist is worth 321 EHP, whereas each +10 armor is worth 542 EHP. With STI, each +10 armor is still worth 542 EHP, but each resist is now worth 389 EHP. (I have a spreadsheet that helps me figure this out). As your armor increases, the contribution of each resist seems to increase as well, making it more effective. 10:1 ratio does not apply the way you think it does, I don't think.

I'd think that think that if you (not just you, but monks in general... sorry) did more things to buff your armor (no matter what the means), it might make it easier for you to withstand ground effects and last longer in battles. My philosophical approach in gearing is that putting gold into damage mitigation is more wisely spent than in life sustain. Once you are at a good level defensively, the sustain will be far more effective IMO.

It's okay if we not agree. I might be wrong and more than willing to admit that. I'm just stating a preference when faced in situations of survival. Whereas I may go for more armor and similar DPS, you may go for more sustain with lower DPS. To each his own.

For me, the ultimate combination that I am striving for is 700AR and 6K Armor. I think if I can maintain that, I'll be pretty much golden.
11/08/2012 01:44 PMPosted by Zork
LpSS is def the way to go, a lot of monks are complaining about not having LS on other items such as a belt, but its not they way we were intended to be used. When you have a Mantra that has no CD, costs 50 spirit and has a bonus in the first 3 secs, LpSS HAS to be used.


I could not agree more.

I specifically went for the Innas helm I am wearing because it has a free transcendence on it. Batch that with transcendence and I found my sustain was much better than putting the skill into STI for mitigation.

I went back and forth on this testing for quite a while on a "lucky" double pack last night -
Pack A: WW dudes with Moltan, Reflect, Arcane
Pack B: Snake Dudes with Moltan, Desecration, Reflect

The armor bonues from STI of 1400 = 140 resist, but that basically amounted to 8% damage mitigation. By going transcendence + LPSS I was far more effective. All I need now is some LS to go with my LPSS, LOH, and LPS. I think a litte of each is key to sustain at lower DPS levels (under 150k).


Since you gain 6 spirit per punch and you're constantly spending spirit, you can think of each point of LpSS as the equivalent of 6 LoH. So you can think of Transendence as 372 LoH. It has it's own trade-offs compared to LoH: its spikey and less consistent, but you can effectively store it up for when you need it.

I do think that having some of each really does help with sustainability. I've been playing at MP6 solo with only about 60K-70K DPS (depending on set up), and I think that having 5 forms of life gain has been key to my surviving.

Another thing to keep in mind is that LpSS (and all life gaining) gets more and more effective the more armor you stack. I've been having fun trying to maintain a balanced monk as I gear up to maintain some of the "tankiness" I've always felt my monk had. Overall, I'm very much in favor of the balanced approach the OP is advocating.
11/08/2012 02:00 PMPosted by Nameless
I'd think that think that if you (not just you, but monks in general... sorry) did more things to buff your armor (no matter what the means), it might make it easier for you to withstand ground effects and last longer in battles.


The nerf made this exceedingly difficult!

Sub in a 15% life gem and STI and you will see the boost to my EHP. I don't think we have a disagreement here. :-)

I was swapping stuff like mad last night, lots of different pieces of gear, lots of weapon combos, and lots of specs. I also have lots of gold, so I can pimp out my monk if I really want to, but my barb is such an effective high MP farming, I am just playing around with the monk.

If I want to jump up a level, I need some LS or I am gonna get clobbered by reflect.

The complexity of AR vs Armor is basically about diminishing returns. As you go up higher in Armor and All Resist, your damage reduction diminishes. Otherwise, we could make toons that are immune to damage. The reason it is better to stack armor AND all resist is because 1 + 1 <> 2.

IE,

We "state" 10 armor = 1 AR, but we do not go into the effect of diminishing returns.

Thus, 600 AR (70 DR) + 6000 Armor (70 DR) > 300 AR (42 DR) + 9000 Armor (79 DR).

On 100k damage, the first scenario would be 9000 damage taken. The second, 12,180. Thus, although our 1 + 1 = 2 does not work due to the factoring of diminishing returns.

This is why the nerf to STI was so significant.

That is why the only way my EHP goes higher is by balancing and adding in health.

This is why a lot of top monks are drifting to SNB.
We "state" 10 armor = 1 AR, but we do not go into the effect of diminishing returns.Thus, 600 AR (70 DR) + 6000 Armor (70 DR) > 300 AR (42 DR) + 9000 Armor (79 DR).On 100k damage, the first scenario would be 9000 damage taken. The second, 12,180.


This is true, but it really doesn't lead to this conclusion:

11/08/2012 02:38 PMPosted by Zork
That is why the only way my EHP goes higher is by balancing and adding in health.


For a given fixed AR and HP, each point of Armor gives you the same amount of EHP. As your armor to AR ratio diverges from 10:1, each point of armor starts to have a greater relative effect on EHP compared to AR. The higher your AR and vitality, the more effective armor becomes as a way to raise your EHP. More importantly, each point of armor magnifies your healing. Because of this, adding amor will be one of the best ways to increase your survivablity.
nice guide, Nameless. I wish I had this when I was gearing up as a young monk.
Love the guide!
Nice write up. Focusing only on 100K dps while ignoring defense and sustain is the biggest mistake new and not so bright monks make.
11/08/2012 03:31 PMPosted by Demiwraith
We "state" 10 armor = 1 AR, but we do not go into the effect of diminishing returns.Thus, 600 AR (70 DR) + 6000 Armor (70 DR) > 300 AR (42 DR) + 9000 Armor (79 DR).On 100k damage, the first scenario would be 9000 damage taken. The second, 12,180.


This is true, but it really doesn't lead to this conclusion:

11/08/2012 02:38 PMPosted by Zork
That is why the only way my EHP goes higher is by balancing and adding in health.


For a given fixed AR and HP, each point of Armor gives you the same amount of EHP. As your armor to AR ratio diverges from 10:1, each point of armor starts to have a greater relative effect on EHP compared to AR. The higher your AR and vitality, the more effective armor becomes as a way to raise your EHP. More importantly, each point of armor magnifies your healing. Because of this, adding amor will be one of the best ways to increase your survivablity.

I couldn't have said this better myself. So I'd like to say something in addition.

There are (obviously) some limitations on how much armor we can get. As a matter of practicality, the recommended targets tend to be 700AR and 600 Armor -- mostly because beyond that, bang-for-buck becomes the issue. In my guide, I advocate that monks build off of a strong defence and do what they can to keep as much of their defence in their armor pieces (away from jewellery) as possible. The reason for this is that jewellery that gives you high damage and some form of damage mitigation is super expensive. So if you build your monk properly, the upgrades should not be terribly expensive.

On my monk, none of my rings have any resistances or armor. That's what made them both relatively cheap. My amulet was a steal, IMO and I wasn't looking for lighting. But when it was offered for 3M, I had to take it. But that allowed me to sacrifice a little in my boots, but I konw that when the times comes, I am going to get that back (I'm gunning for natalya's boots) and so the amulet is a bonus that might allow me to get a glass cannon legendary piece somewhere else and not lose out on damage mitigation.

A strong, balanced monk will always keep defence in mind, but offence is what determines which MP levels you are playing. The quicker you can kill, the easier the game is. I just advocate that monks not sacrifice defence for offence. As one of the commenters said from before (to reiterate what I said in my guide), we need to have a realistic expectation of what levels we can play. If we play at too high of a level, we will et thrashed. So the solution is not to go for offence over defence to play at that level. The solution is to build up your offence slowly and patiently without any sacrifice to defence. In the ideal world... EVER.

Any form of life sustain needs to be seen as a last resort -- it's the last line of defence, not the first one. IT only becomes most effective after you have the strongest defence possible on your monk. If you find yourself struggling in a level, look first to improving your defence and then life sustain. I can't comment what happens when you get to high MP levels where defences may never really be strong enough. I project that if this is the case, sustain becomes even more important because improvements to armor are no longer realistic after you achieve those targets.
Nameless. I just snagged another good one on AH a little while ago. I keep getting them and handing them out to friends. If you would like to buy for trying purpose's, I'd be more then willing to sell to you.

843dps
493-712 dam
1.40 APS
+295 min
+172 max
+27% dam
+119dex
2.8% LS
58.7 LPSS
OS

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt307/Hambone07si/GrislyFall.jpg

These are golden IMO, with a Echo in the other hand

I stole this one basically and sniped at the last 10sec for 1.2mil, you can have for what I paid if you would like to test with. Last one of these I snagged for 27k and traded for a pair of Inna's pants for a friend. This will sell for 2mil easy buyout when your done also.

Add me in game if your interested :)


I just picked up a fist with the following stats
865.9dps
367-870 dam
264-655 Holy damage
1.40 APS
+217 dex
2.9% LS
45.8 LPSS
OS

for 2M in AH. It looked like a steal (I bought it as buyout). And it represents a virtual wash DPS wise on my monk over my last sword and it replaced a weapon that cost me 4.5M that I think can sell for 15M (it's probably still showing on my monk right now). I'm so excited to try this out with the transcendence passive later today/tonight (to give me a touch over 100 LpSS).

I'll report back on my experience after I have a chance to try it.
Just added PDF link to guide on front page to make it easier on the eyes and/or more portable for you to read away from computer.
I just added a link to my google spreadsheet too. About 10mins to set up for your monk, but it'll give you a lot of good information about your monk all in one place (so you don't have to consult multiple places. It can be a great planning tool as you weigh options between different items you have bids on so you can decide which item to go for as the item's expiries come closer. Please see original post for link.

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