RMTAH (RMAH) must stay! It's not Pay 2 Win ..

General Discussion
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I'm seeing a lot of comments that amount to unjustifiable attacks on the OP, the RMAH and other RMAH users. We, the community of reasonable adults that play this game and would like to see continued support for the RMAH in D3 and in other games must unite and send a clear message that we will not stand for this.

Unfortunately, in both life and gaming, the ratio of people with sufficient disposable income to legitimately justify spending thousands of dollars on virtual goods & services (aka entertainment) is vastly outnumbered by what I will affectionately call "peasants" (I don't mean to denigrate anyone by the word peasant, that's not my style, just havin some fun!).

It also true that in the majority of cases, peasants are peasants because they are either young and/or poor. I can totally understand why people that have lived and suffered as peasants in RL would come to these forums and cry, kick & scream about the perceived injustice they must endure due to the existence of an RMAH. In my mind, this perception is absolutely false on so many levels, and I will briefly outline just ONE thing for you peasants to consider before crying about how unfair the RMAH is to you.

I hope that it might at least help the anti-RMAH camp see another side of the argument and foster a serious debate about the real outstanding issues, instead of just a bunch of randoms making counterproductive and unsupported statements of opinion. Observe, class is session.

Main Argument That RMAH Is Good & Should Be Done

When you make a long term commitment in life that affects other people, you can't just pack up and bounce the minute you have an opportunity to improve your own circumstances. Someone in this thread said something along the lines of "work less so you can grind more without needing RMAH". If he could do those things and chooses not to, that logic may be marginally debatable, but that's a big IF.

I surmise the OP is a salaried professional. The work of highly educated professionals cannot be transplanted like a fry cook at McDonalds. If for example he is a lead software engineer and he suddenly quits, it often takes months or years to recover from having to replace someone in that position. Depending on the complexity of the project, how far along they are, how cryptic his personal coding/design notation might be, how much cash flow the company has that quarter and numerous other moving parts, he CANNOT decide to just up and quit/reduce hours/refuse to live at the office to meet a deadline. If he does, he could literally bankrupt his company and be responsible for thousands of innocent people being unable to feed their families.

Is there a single peasant among you that dare to sit there and tell me that it is in any way acceptable to arrange things in game such that some people might have to choose between risking the lives of thousands or playing 2 hours a day of D3 instead of 1, FOR ANY REASON? It's unconscionable, which leaves only these options:

1) He can quit D3 entirely.

2) He can grind and get the stuff he wants slowly, playing half an hour a day. It's not a stretch to say there's a good chance he play every day of hislife and due to bad luck or scams, NEVER get a chance to play the game the way he wants due to lack of appropriate gear.

3) He can decide that playing the game a certain way with certain gear, and asses how much that's worth to him in dollars (aka he chooses a conversion rate for dollars <==> entertainment).

Of the only 4 ways to get what he wants, only buying gear with dollars is guaranteed to satisfy his entertainment desires with the least impact on anyone other than him.

HOW DARE ANY OF YOU TRY TO STOP HIM FOR HAVING FUN WITH HIS MEASLY 30 MINUTES A DAY OF PERSONAL TIME? You say it's not fair that he uses RL to gain in game advantages? You say he's "cheating", you say he's paying to "win"? The only person winning is the guy that sold a free virtual sword for $1000. He's an honest, hard working guy who deserves to spend his precious half hour any damn way he pleases. So however unfair it might be to you that he spends money on items, how fair is it to him to be effectively LOCKED OUT OF THE GAME? I really want to know.
the problem here is not RMAH. it's the loot system. if only specific monsters drop specific items and not that randomception thing of an item. it will all be good.

establish RMAH yes. but since all players know where to "hunt" IK Chest. then who would bother buying stuffs at RMAH when you can say like spend 45 mins a day to just kill that specific monster to drop that IK Chest.
only buying gear with dollars is guaranteed to satisfy his entertainment desires with the least impact on anyone other than him.

HOW DARE ANY OF YOU TRY TO STOP HIM FOR HAVING FUN WITH HIS MEASLY 30 MINUTES A DAY OF PERSONAL TIME?


if he's interested in hack-and-slash, i would direct him to TL2 where you can go into the game folder, enable the console, which you can open in game and lvl up your character and give it max gear in, what, half an hour; plus there's more stuff to do . . . story and tone of the game are just as lame as D3, but it's as fun as is D3 at it's low levels

having said that, i don't understand why ppl can't accept that D3 is an AH game

it is lacking in content; there's not much left for ppl to do if you take out the RMAH
I'd get the complaints in a game with a defined end-game that's not Diablo's farm til you drop. If the game is only solo or co-op who really cares? At least Blizz lets you make some money off the RMAH, they could just have a store with randomly generated gear each day that they have 100% profit from.

Worst case scenario someone buys gear and some makes money and you never see it. Best case they buy gear, join a public game with you and help you kill stuff faster with the better gear they bought. I really don't know why people care in a game like diablo. Perhaps someone can enlighten me as to why it matters?

I've never bought stuff of RMAH because I prefer to spend my excess money on trips or movies or whatnot, but I can't think of any conceivable way where a RMAH affects my ability to play Diablo the way I want.
11/29/2012 06:59 PMPosted by CRescent3
Every time someone says Pay2Win. I would like someone to tell me what are you winning when you buy your gear with real money? You are only circumventing the farming process, that is all and nothing more. You do not get a special piece or special set that is given if you buy your gear. You do not get a special set or special piece of gear if you make beat the game by x amount of hours. You do not get any of that or any other special prizes for buying your gear.


I don't know about D3, but didn't Blizzard claim that RMT has damaged WoW players' experiences?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/services/anti-gold/


The only thing that the link you provided does is talk about WoW. Where it is illegal to buy gold for real money. So that is irrelevant in this game. Here it is legal because of the RMAH. So those are just words and words alone. They do not mean anything at all to me.

Who cares if a player buys gear, gold, or other items with real cash in this game, since it is legal. That does not answer the question, what does the player that buys gold, gear, or items with real money win? It is saying that the RMAH is a Pay2Win so I want to know what the prize is for doing that.
The problem I have with RMAH is that Its impossible for me to be impresed or get excited when I see someone with amazing gear. MY first thought is RMAH user every time. I no longer have freinds that I look up to. its not impressive at all, just slide that visa. Everyone has money were mostly adults that play this game, we all have jobs. So we all can just swipe the visa and bam your "good" at the game. Kinda lame.

And then, RMAH pretty much makes you look at each item with a $ amount. So we alter our gameply to play the most effeciently. No longer to have fun, but to farm as good as possible. It changed it into work. Its now a very low paying job that you play on your down time.

I also have friends that buy awesome gear and barely play. Why? Because they feel no reward for finding loot. The whole point of this game is to find loot. But we can just buy it, which just destroys the point. So lets buy good loot to find crappier loot. Makes sense.

PVP wont help this at all. People will buy good gear to pvp. They didnt earn it. Just slide the visa and bam they can whoop you. Oh, you say there is a system to devide the two? League play if you will that determins your level of play and matches you with similar opponents. So what Am i pvp'ing for? to get good enough one day that I work my way up to fight the rmah warriors that will always have the edge cause they'll just slide the visa for upgrades if they get beat?

RMAH is just bad for gaming. If you dont have the time to spend, then you shouldnt be on top. Its like if you could pay someone to make you super buff. What about the people who work really hard at the gym all day? Why did they even waste all their time, just slide the visa and get swole screw all the hard work.
Most of us aren't complaining about the RMAH because we think it shouldn't exist. Most people I know are displeased because we are forced into using the AH and the RMAH to better our gear. We don't have options. I think the auction houses are a great medium to use for "trade", but when I don't have the option of finding most of my gear, but rather am forced to purchase it in one way or another, that is what is upsetting. I have played since release and I was farming Act 3 inferno when it was hard as !@#$. When I beat Act 1 inferno more than half my gear was found. After patch 1.03 i have found less than 10% of the upgrades that I have used. That is not acceptable. Let us choose if we want to use the AH's not be forced to.
Everyone that hates RMAH is broke
Everyone that uses RMAH has other responsibilites but enjoys games (how dare they!)
Everyone that doens't care could buy items but chooses not to

I think that sums up 90%+ of this thread.
Most of us aren't complaining about the RMAH because we think it shouldn't exist. Most people I know are displeased because we are forced into using the AH and the RMAH to better our gear. We don't have options. I think the auction houses are a great medium to use for "trade", but when I don't have the option of finding most of my gear, but rather am forced to purchase it in one way or another, that is what is upsetting. I have played since release and I was farming Act 3 inferno when it was hard as !@#$. When I beat Act 1 inferno more than half my gear was found. After patch 1.03 i have found less than 10% of the upgrades that I have used. That is not acceptable. Let us choose if we want to use the AH's not be forced to.


you have that choice. it is called monster power.
11/29/2012 09:15 PMPosted by Nopickles
The only person winning is the guy that sold a free virtual sword for $1000.
OP: Would it not be better if you could have the same fun without having to pay more money?
OHHHHHHHHHHHHH i love RMAH, i dont buy there though, I just sell, sell, sell. so thank you dear customer and more blessing for your family. =)
11/29/2012 10:23 PMPosted by LunathirEth
OP: Would it not be better if you could have the same fun without having to pay more money?


I can help answer this question as I've spent some money for gear. Yes, it would be better if we could have the same fun without having to pay more money. Was that a rhetorical question, because it sure sounded like it.
11/28/2012 10:58 PMPosted by Archangel
i respect your opinion friend.. but for me having to play only about 45 mins to an hour a day would really take million years to even survive on mp3 or mp5 to get better chances on the keys for leoric signet, needless to say i have to fight the ubers too


Why? Isn't it the point of most videogames that the more time/effort you invest the better your rewards? Why should somebody who plays for 45min get the same reward as somebody who invests 10hrs? I don't see the logic in that. If you can only play for 45 min a day then obviously you are going to progress much slower.
Any game that has third party sites trafficking their property will take initiative sooner or later.
Hate all you want. Unless you have a better business proposition, I doubt you changed a thing.


All that has happened is the 3rd party site owners have a shiny in-house system to exploit rather than having to set one up themselves.
11/29/2012 10:35 PMPosted by Knavery
Was that a rhetorical question, because it sure sounded like it.


I could be viewed thusly. That people, even casuals, feel the pressure to use the AH to have fun, seems to legitamize the suggestions that the pressure exists.
11/29/2012 10:50 PMPosted by maxedpotato
Why should somebody who plays for 45min get the same reward as somebody who invests 10hrs?


Why should someone who plays 45 minutes get the same reward as someone who invests 10hrs? I.e. Nothing.

Unless they spend $ as soon as they log on and have BiS after 5 minutes...
So what you're saying is that the game design wouldn't allow you to get anything good on your own, frustrating you enough that you gave in and spent money on this game beyond the purchase price. And instead of realizing how badly you just got scammed and wishing the game weren't set up in such a way, you ended up liking it.

Baffling.


Amen. I always assume this is due to limited intellects, greed an/or 'interesting' personality types.
11/29/2012 10:11 PMPosted by Draxiss
Most of us aren't complaining about the RMAH because we think it shouldn't exist. Most people I know are displeased because we are forced into using the AH and the RMAH to better our gear. We don't have options. I think the auction houses are a great medium to use for "trade", but when I don't have the option of finding most of my gear, but rather am forced to purchase it in one way or another, that is what is upsetting. I have played since release and I was farming Act 3 inferno when it was hard as !@#$. When I beat Act 1 inferno more than half my gear was found. After patch 1.03 i have found less than 10% of the upgrades that I have used. That is not acceptable. Let us choose if we want to use the AH's not be forced to.


And if there was no AH you would be complaining about how you cant find anything.

Read this:

Wyatt Cheng: Alright so I'm going to take a stab at this question. As mentioned in a different thread, the drop rates were carefully tuned for a single player playing through from 1 to 60 without ever using the AH.

All of our items are randomly generated, and so follow a distribution curve in power. Let's say for the sake of argument that you were to somehow distill an item down to it's "power level" and created a distribution graph of drop rate vs. power level. This graph would probably be normally distributed with outliers at high power levels dropping at a lower rate.
Looking at this graph, an average item drops every 5 minutes, a higher power item drops every 15 minutes, even higher power drops every hour. etc. As you move up the curve to ever more powerful items, the amount of time it takes to find such an item increases. This is what makes certain items more desirable, this is how things worked in D2.

What happens for a standard player who is playing solo when they first hit level 60 is they see an item upgrade every 30 minutes or so. Pretty quickly it becomes every hour, then every 2 hours. The higher the power level of your gear, the longer it takes to find your next upgrade, that's just the underlying math of this distribution. It's not really anything we set either. If we magically made all drops rates 10x higher, all it would do is shift the power curve left or right, it would not change the fundamental property that the higher up in power you go, the longer (statistically) it is going to take until you find your next drop.

So then let's say you visit the Auction House and get infusion of power that hurls you forward on that power curve. So whereas at one point your gear may be at a point that you are statistically speaking probably going to get an upgrade every 2 hours. After visiting the Auction House you hurl yourself forward on the power curve so far that now you are statistically going to get a drop every 8 hours.

To further illustrate the point, let's talk about the coming changes in 1.0.3. In 1.0.3 we're going to start dropping level 63 items in Act I of Inferno. We're also reducing incoming damage. What do I expect to happen? I expect that there will be a rapid increase in power across the entire community as all of these items become more widely accessible. It's like we took the distribution curve of items and made everything drop more. That item that used to take 10 hours to find is now a 2 hour item. An item that used to be a 2 day item is now an 8 hour item. After the initial frenzy of power increase, things are just going to settle again.

People who think drop rates are too low now will probably still think drop rates are too low a week later when they move to the new point on the curve. I've spent a long time on this question so I'm going to move on but hopefully somebody who gets what I'm saying will be able to expand on it more, maybe draw some graphs to better illustrate the point.

tl;dr we could make drops 100x what they are now and it would just cause everybody to settle at a new equilibrium point. Anything you can farm in a few hours you'll already have, anything that takes longer you'll wish you could get faster.

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