Building a Sweeping Wind Monk?

Monk
01/14/2013 05:48 PMPosted by Kaho
My calculations match those that Vrkhyz has

Considering his math supports my claims, I guess you're admitting and agreeing with what I've said. Cool.
Considering his math supports my claims, I guess you're admitting and agreeing with what I've said. Cool.

No his "math" doesn't support your claims. Look at these quotes from Vrkhyz.

01/14/2013 07:44 AMPosted by Vrkhyz
For example, your Ghom test (identical white weapons, +62% IAS, 56% CHC) produces a ratio of 45.74 to 54.26 (i.e., it favors Cyclone).

My calculations:
Cyclone: 1.5*.56*1.729W
TC: 1.45*(.8W + .2*1.729W)
Vortex: .3*1.729W
1.66141:1.97106 or 45.7377:54.2622 (similar results as Vrkhyz)
These numbers don't fall within your "ratios."

01/14/2013 07:44 AMPosted by Vrkhyz
This ratio depends, in part, on the base APS because of the FitL bonus. The ratio I quoted assumes that you’re using 1.50 APS daggers; if I assume 1.40 APS fists instead, the ratio rises to 46.23 to 53.77, which means that Thunderclap’s contribution with fists is higher than it is with daggers.

Faith considered, switching to a Skorn with a base APS of 1.00 changes the ratio in favor of Thunderclap. I've been saying this the whole time but you continue to deny it. Initially you said that switching to a good Skorn would increase SW damage weight. You retracted that statement but went on to say that using a Skorn would not matter. Both of these things you've said are incorrect.

If we approximate Vrkhyz's monk's damage ratios(assuming both his weapons are identical and at 1.55 APS) we get a damage split of 70:30 with Faith absent entirely. Considering faith for both TC and SW it is something close to 62.5:37.5. His CHC is 20.5% and with 28% IAS his APS rounds to 2. If we get him a 1.00 Skorn and keep CHC and IAS constant the ratio becomes 65:35. Note that none of these ratios are within the range you provided and that using a Skorn does in fact affect the balance.

The calculations assume that we are not item swapping and that both weapons are identical. As I said earlier, in your tests you used an Echoing Fury and a WKL to obtain your numbers. Damage difference between the two weapons is likely the reason why your in game test numbers are different from Vrkhyz's data. Echoing Fury does increase your other weapon's faith damage but in this case it is likely that the WKL is weaker for SW.

Just as I said from my first post:
For Cyclone if you don't swap items at all then damage ratio is dependant on critical hit chance and attack speed. These ratios aren't useful because the damage split relies on CHC/IAS. With a Skorn build more damage will come from TC and not the other way around.
What I have said stands true.

Why do I think all these ratios are irrelevant? With the ratio you've given at 55:45 the difference between using a 14% SW or a 14% TC helmet is ~1.3% real DPS. At 40:60 the difference is ~2.6% real DPS. The fact that skill bonus from items stacks additively with damage from skills(for example foresight or blazing wrath) means that the difference is even smaller than 1.3%/2.6%. At an extreme condition at 5% CHC, 1 APS, the difference is 7% DPS. If a player has to choose between a bonus to TC or SW there is very little difference in which one he chooses.

Considering when TC and SW and Cyclone are your only sources of damage, the fact that only 15-20% of your total damage output is NOT effected by WKL, the difference is negligible. Case in point, at ~90k pdps and 800k edps, 25% lightning skills on a WKL is ONLY worth ~5.5k pdps. For argument's sake (since you don't seem to be able to do simple math very well :/) that comes out to a 6% increase only, which is not enough to skew the results out of the range I originally suggested.

More math! Yay!

More failed ideas! Yay! If 20% of our damage is not affected by WKL then a 25% WKL will give us 20% Real DPS. The 6% difference in the character sheet is worthless as we are talking about real damage ratios. Also, unlike skill bonus items, WKL lightning bonus is multiplicative. If indeed your ratio was 55:45 with a WKL then an identical weapon without the bonus would have a ratio of ~53:47 assuming the 15-20%.
Even though it was meaningless, congratulations on finding out that 5.5 is ~6% of 90. You did well.
I'm totally confused.

If someone could please provide a basic summary of how to build for sweeping wind I'd really appreciate it.

Please take into account the upcoming changes to monks (I believe gear swapping won't provide the snapshot bonus anymore? So no gear swapping in the details please).

Also, assume it's for dueling where you wouldn't be allowed any outside bonuses from other classes or shrines.

Thanks so much.
No his "math" doesn't support your claims. Look at these quotes from Vrkhyz.

Actually it does. As this thread started off as a question made by a person with a monk not yet level 60 with a budget of 70m gold, the ranges of the ratios I gave were well within the quality of items he could afford.

The stats you just quoted that Vrk gave math for are WELL beyond 70m worth, so no, that math is NOT relevant.

More failed ideas! Yay! If 20% of our damage is not affected by WKL then a 25% WKL will give us 20% Real DPS. The 6% difference in the character sheet is worthless as we are talking about real damage ratios. Also, unlike skill bonus items, WKL lightning bonus is multiplicative. If indeed your ratio was 55:45 with a WKL then an identical weapon without the bonus would have a ratio of ~53:47 assuming the 15-20%.
Even though it was meaningless, congratulations on finding out that 5.5 is ~6% of 90. You did well.

Here I'm a little confused how you seem to think the edps calculation I did for the LS damage on WKL has anything to do with what you see ingame, because it doesn't. Theres a reason its called EFFECTIVE damage per second, and thats because you CANNOT see it without doing the calculations I listed.

Considering most people are unsure of how to do this math, its actually very helpful (or so I've been told) to know how to do it to find the value, given current equipment, of the LS on a WKL. The biggest reason WHY, is that its not calculated by damage calculators. Hopefully Vrkhyz's spreadsheet will do this math for us, but I can't remember either way.

This discussion/argument has never been about the math itself (as you've done a decent job with it), its about understanding the WHY of it, and you still apparently don't. I didn't randomly throw out the ratios with EVERY gear level in mind. This thread was made by a specific person with specific conditions/restrictions in mind and I answered it in a way I feel was more than appropriate. You came in with a very egotistic attitude with no more intent than to prove me wrong. Unfortunately, given the OP's situation, YOU have been the one proven wrong.

Accept it, and move on.
I'm totally confused.

If someone could please provide a basic summary of how to build for sweeping wind I'd really appreciate it.

Please take into account the upcoming changes to monks (I believe gear swapping won't provide the snapshot bonus anymore? So no gear swapping in the details please).

Also, assume it's for dueling where you wouldn't be allowed any outside bonuses from other classes or shrines.

Thanks so much.

Um, the general premise behind Sweeping Wind isn't so much the items (at least come 1.0.7) but the synergy it shares with other skills. Obviously you want certain stats like IAS and CC to spawn as many Cyclones as possible too. The general idea is that you want as many sources of buffing as possible before casting it (even if gear swapping is eliminated) which include Foresight, Blazing Wrath, Combination Strike, and Faith in the Light. Then beyond that you want to use the highest APS skills to have the highest amount of chances to spawn Cyclones. That means Thunderclap. Thats all I can think of atm, I'm sure if I missed something someone else will chime in.
Quite the crazy thread here.

So after this is all said and done a Skorn shouldnt be used over dual wielding for higher mp?

i'm at a 2.2 APS with my dual wielding but feel really pigeon holed into getting to the next tree of DPS.

Also i feel a lot safer with my dual LOH and the 2.9% life steal.

just sucks i'm capped out at 83k dps not including Cyclone.

I was debating a Skorn with life steal/crithit 180%+/1300dps+
since after i buffed myself my dps would just mp to 52k+ dps without the 100% crit hit damage socket.

I dont want to snap crackle pop here since it wont be available after patch
and i want to get into being able to do Inf Machine runs etc.

Besides getting an ech Fury with 1200+dps and lifesteal that costs 100mil+ idk what else to do.

I'm a HC player so i can't gimp my armor or AR anymore

here is a link to my char
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Nummles07-1935/hero/25486603

right now i can do A3 MP1 with no worries
anything higher i have to actually move around A LOT against elites with arcane and or Desc. with my 1575loh and 2.9% lifesteal.

which makes the Risk vs reward ratio hold me to MP1 max.

and this is all based on solo play.

Thanks for any help anyone provides!!
I don't know how I missed this thread the first time around, but it sure was a fun read!

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