CC and APOC relationship math - Shandlar?

Wizard
We always throw around numbers for CC and APOC. Especially for newbies. Like:
- APOC should be between 18 and 20.
- CC should be at least 45, closer to 50 if you can. More is better.

But there's quite a wide variation there. And the difference between 18 and 20 is 11%. That's pretty significant. Same 11% for the difference between 45 and 50.

For instance, would each of these three sceneros return the identical results for the build:
45 cc and 20 APOC
47.5 cc and 19 APOC
50 cc and 18 APOC

(i.e. they each give the same multiplicative constant, "9". Kinda like a CC-APOC checkpoint, for a "decent" mid-game place to be. )

However, if you are at 45CC and 18 APOC.....versus 50 and 20 APOC....that yields a 23% difference between those two gear options. But both fall within the guidelines of 18-20 APOC and 45-50 CC. However, I imagine that they would have fairly different results in game. I hesitate to say drastically different...but maybe.

Other "Checkpoints"

"8" - Entry Level - equivalent to 42 CC and 19 APOC
"9" - Mid Grade - equivalent to 47.5 CC and 19 APOC
"10" - High End - equivalent to 53 CC and 19 APOC
"11" - Boss Mode - equivalent to 58 CC and 19 APOC

You could then adjust your CC or APOC accordingly to hit these checkpoints.

Or is there some breakpoint, tick rate, coefficient mathematical nonsense that I don't understand? I'm not a mathematician....maybe I'll just go back to being a chemist.

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After putting this post together, I realized that Shandlar did this, like, two months ago....and better, by including WW ticks per second....to account for people at the 3.00 breakpoint and not just within the same breakpoint....which is what mine accounts for. It also includes the current WW coefficient (0.125)

I'll still make the post, just to drive some discussion around CC and APOC. Someone I was helping in a post has 20 APOC, but low CC (45). In the end, that's probably an "OK" place to be. But not if they had 18 APOC, that would be pretty bad.

Shandlar's discussion:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7005436126?page=1#8

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Excerpt from Shandlar's post:
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Calculation is APoC * 0.125 * Crit Chance (Decimal) * WW ticks per second = AP per second, per twister, per target.

2.727 APS Breakpoint

7.00 - 7.50 = Bare minimum. Will struggle often with AP.
7.50 - 8.50 = Good. Be careful with wormholing too aggressively. May have to skip the first EB cast.
8.50 - 9.50 = Excellent. Can occasionally get yourself in trouble with wormhole.
9.50 - 10.50 = Perfect. Always enough AP.
10.50+ = Wasted unless you are using twisters to gather huge AP for meteor casts.

*** to get WW ticks per second, divide the number of ticks you are at by 6. i.e. for 2.73 it is "36/6" and for 3.01 it is "40/6"
The values from that equation depend a lot on external factors. I think it was mostly set up with Wormhole farming in mind against a single target.

As someone who ran with fracture, I had no issues with a 6.5 value from that formula. Also, 9 means 9AP regen per WW cast, or a total of 54 AP per WW. If you cast 1 EB for each WW, then you are completely AP saturated at that value. Any more than 9 should be wasted at that point against even single target. At most you're likely looking at 1 EB for every 2 WW, so even 9 should be too much, since that's a gain of about 10-15 AP per WW, even after including EB usage.

My current build is 30 APoC, 41% crit, 2.002 APS (26 ticks per cast). Using the formula I get:
30*0.41*26/6*0.125 = 6.6625

I can still get a 7x multiplier against Ghom with that set up, so I really don't agree that 7.00-7.50 is the bare min in all cases.

For non-wormhole users, I think 6.5-7 is the butter zone. Higher is mostly a waste, especially since most of your time farming is spent against more than 1 target. I don't know what I'd call the bare minimum though, but probably not much lower than 5, which really shouldn't be hard to obtain.
01/24/2013 02:25 PMPosted by Loroese
For non-wormhole users, I think 6.5-7 is the butter zone. Higher is mostly a waste, especially since most of your time farming is spent against more than 1 target. I don't know what I'd call the bare minimum though, but probably not much lower than 5, which really shouldn't be hard to obtain.
That's probably a good number. If we go with the generally accepted ideal of 50cc/2.73 for SNS, then 18APoC has you fall right at 6.75. In general, I think any number is probably fine if you're not running out of AP at full wind up against a single-target. Though I kinda have the sense that >6.5 is probably that breakpoint. There was a bit of discussion by Shandlar earlier today in the MP10 Uber Weather Man Union thread: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7199402584?page=13#255 .
1+2=5

My contribution
I think it depends on personal preference, I really don't mind running out of AP vs single once or twice if it means my gear costs significant less for example. Paying a good few hundreds mil just to not running out of AP vs single is not practical in farming because you hardly face 1 target only.

I don't do maths, but I have tried many different combo, and I think that 18 APoC 48 CC at 2.61 aps are the safe stats for me, as AP nearly never runs out, so I assume 18/48 is ok. Based on the formula, it's 6.48, not bad at all. We can even run as low as 6 imo, but because I can afford a bit more, why not, the more the better.
even 20 sometimes i miss eb/twister cast on singles 'need arcane power'. you guys play too loose with apoc imo and <2.73 three sources is mandatory imo. just record yourself play u'll be shock how many time u miss casting spells. longer windups than with 30 & poorer multipliers.

I've tested this stuff and only reason i settle on 20 apoc and 2.73 is apoc sources are outrageous and have no vit but when i use my apoc source build is way better way smother faster ramp ups when landing in middle of pack half full. night and day really.

seems like everyone has someplace they like to skimp in this build. we all want 30 apoc 3 ias 75% CC. and when i skimp its cc then apoc then ias. least to most bang for your buck.
What a timely post!

I was just thinking tonight about abandoning 2.73 APS in favor of 3 APOC pieces. For a budget CM (i.e. <100mil) I think that setup will yield a higher DPS and EHP because attack speed will no longer be a bottleneck.

In other words:
SC + BTJM + 2xChants + WH + 4 pieces of IAS gear.
That leaves a lot more room for CCD and AR/armor on a budget
Wow... now I realise Diablo III is actually a math puzzle game.

Arrhhhh... I just wanna lock down the monsters and do some damage without dying too much.

I am too poor to get gears that hit "Mid-level".
just record yourself play u'll be shock how many time u miss casting spells. longer windups than with 30 & poorer multipliers.


This.

I was surprised how often I missed a cast when I finally got a Mempo. Add in the annoyingly slow windups and I find myself putting the Stormcrow back on more often.
@Aimless: I'm quite well aware that I miss 3-4 casts on windup for singles (and more if I'm out of AP from wormholing). But it's a balancing act. To get more APoC, I'd right now have to sacrifice crit damage. And even CD impacts our multiplier and more importantly our bottom line... dealing damage. So losing CD is even a bigger problem. When I tested Ghom last week, I got this:
1min,17s with 102,661k dps (194%CD, 2.76aps/55cc/17APoC) - 6.38x multiplier
1min,40s with 77,024k dps (94%CD, 3.04aps/53cc/17APoC) - 6.55x multiplier
1min,41s with 75,237k dps (94%CD, 2.84aps/55cc/26APoC) - 6.63x multiplier

So I really didn't see personally a huge difference between the various setups. And I have even better APoC now at 18. The 26APoC setup didn't give me enough to tempt me that it's superior to my other setups. Thus, I'm inclinded to just live with it being not optimal. I very much do notice the difference between 18APoC and 27APoC, and I agree it's night and day. But it's also night and day difference to have 25% more DPS. Alas I can't have everything... :p
I didn't do any math, but I can tell you that with my stats as they are right now, 2.74 breakpoint (my actual APS is 2.88 or something), 47.5% crit (pinpoint and scoundrel), and 18 apoc, I never run out of AP on single target Ghom. Maybe the windup could be a bit faster, but as soon as I have like 4 or 5 twisters out there, I'm at full AP the rest of the fight until he's dead. Actually, the duration of that first frost nova is long enough for me to get enough twisters out to top up arcane power. So, I seriously doubt APOC really matters, as long as you have 2 pieces (which makes 18 minimum already).
Yeah pretty sure 18 APoC is the minimum, anything lower will result in AP running out too often to be functional. And I see no difference between 48 CC (ok 47.5 similar) and 50 CC, so the 50 CC requirement is just a "nice-number" requirement imo. We all want skyhigh CC but Gold is the limit factor, as gearing a Cm Wiz is the toughest thing.
shands gonna come in here and tell you guys 19 is 75% better and 20 120% than 18. just wait.

you guys can play whatever really i just know my survival goes through floor at 18 cos everyone is not slow and fat like gohm
01/24/2013 11:08 PMPosted by Aimless
shands gonna come in here and tell you guys 19 is 75% better and 20 120% than 18. just wait.


So true lol. But even he agreed that 18 is functional xD
@atinybug: Aimless is talking about the windup specifically. Though I'm a little surprised you're not missing a cast, since your AP regeneration per second per twister is 6.41. I bet you're very borderline and probably would start missing casts without Diamond Shards.
Well, the only time I wish I had more APOC is when I'm traveling between packs of mobs, and if the previous pack left me low on AP then I stand there and shoot my wand off a bunch of times before I can put out a bunch of twisters. But, if I go into any mob (group or single) with full AP, that first frost nova will hold them still long enough for me to get enough twisters out to top up AP and cast that 2nd frost nova.
Not meaning to be rude to all you Math heads, but don't any of you get out into the field and just test stuff, lol.

I find it easier just to try on diff sets of gear whilst farming and see what "feels" best.
01/24/2013 11:05 PMPosted by novice
Yeah pretty sure 18 APoC is the minimum, anything lower will result in AP running out too often to be functional. And I see no difference between 48 CC (ok 47.5 similar) and 50 CC, so the 50 CC requirement is just a "nice-number" requirement imo. We all want skyhigh CC but Gold is the limit factor, as gearing a Cm Wiz is the toughest thing.
It is for 50cc, but that requirement slides based on your cc and ias. It's WAY too simplistic to just say 18.

Rather I person think it's more effective if players plug their setup into Shandlar's APoC formula to see where they stand: AP regeneration = (WW Ticks / 6) x Proc Coefficient x Crit Chance x APoC. Your AP regeneration should ideally be higher than than 6.75, which is the 18APoC/50%cc/2.73aps standard. This calculation is better than flatly saying 18APoC, since it takes a wizard's cc and ias into account. :)

And it's worth noting by Shandlar's recommendations, 18APoC is actually insufficient until you reach 52%cc at 2.73aps. And technically a 17APoC+55%cc gear setup just meets Shandlar's base minimum requirements. Thus, for the 2.73aps breakpoint, we'd have kinda the following rough guidelines (if we extrapolate Shandlar's recommended minimum stats):
20APoC - 47%cc
19APoC - 50%cc
18APoC - 52%cc
17APoC - 55%cc
16APoC - 59%cc
15APoC - 63%cc
Not meaning to be rude to all you Math heads, but don't any of you get out into the field and just test stuff, lol.

I find it easier just to try on diff sets of gear whilst farming and see what "feels" best.
Actually, I do. :) I know I'm personally fine by qualititative and quantitative experience. At 55%cc/2.73aps, I qualititatively found 17APoC to be more than adequate for my setup, whereas 16APoC was more tenuous and I ran into deficits without Diamond Shards. I have 18APoC now and I'm pretty much as comfortable as I was at 17. IMO, I think the major benefit of adding math is that it gives us a quantitative way to express our qualitative experiences in a way that we can also predict other combinations that we have not yet tested.
Not meaning to be rude to all you Math heads, but don't any of you get out into the field and just test stuff, lol.

I find it easier just to try on diff sets of gear whilst farming and see what "feels" best.


Thats exactly what I did. Then I used math to quantify what I was 'feeling' in game.

I feel that if you are using standard SNS(t) you need an abundance of AP for comfortable and highly aggressively wormholing and as few AP issues as possible. I stand by that graph even now.

If you are using a variant of SNS that doesn't need 60 AP to wormhole five or six times a minute, you are correct those numbers are far too high.

Now below 6.00 is no good regardless cause thats only 36 AP recovered over the entire life of the twister in single targets. Below 6 you would start being starved for AP chaining at max speed against single targets even after wind up. I would consider that a hard minimum for anyone.

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