How It Went Terribly Wrong, Because They Listened To Us

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Also they need to add more monsters on inferno mode. Not really just make it harder, (that's monster power level is for) just add more monsters. I shouldn't be walking inferno mode with no contact of monsters for 5 minutes especially in dungeons.
I extended the posting limit in this thread, and wanted to let you all know that we have been reading your suggestions. A lot of them are really good and we appreciate it.
1. read topic title
2. do not read the rest of the thread (esp no d2 qq) = do not listen to vocal minority
3. game wont go wrong
4. no more boas please, this is not the game you're looking for.
The problem I see with Diablo 3 is quite simple:

The combination of no re-rolls and limited progression drastically reduces the longevity of the experience.

It doesn't matter how freely loot drops, everyone will hit a wall, especially when they all have BiS gear. People seem to think increasing drops will make the game magically better. Yeah, for a week, until you get all that sweet loot, and you're right back on these forums complaining that you're bored and that nothing EVER drops (never mind that you have trifecta jewelry, and are fully decked out in legendary items!)

So this leaves little option for a burnt out player who has been playing 1000 hours. Other than of course going to the forums, telling everyone they quit, and moving on.

Either create a system where gear continually scales up and items are always out there to be chased (which is nearly impossible, but please prove me wrong) or create a reason for players to re-level and re-invest in new characters so they can start the gearing up process all over again. (Also spice up itemization while you're at it. When you re-level a character, you should be finding a ton of amazing loot along the way, not useless legendary items 20 levels below you.)

It's a tall order, and I'm not sure there is a solution. Especially with the AH available, which is whole other can of worms.

I think adding BoA crafting is a step in the right direction, as it adds some sort of carrot for top tier players to chase, while removing the AH from the equation. (The AH is the thing that ruined the loot hunt, if you're just joining us.)

And I have a feeling a lot of top tier burnt out players would be drawn back just by introducing new legendaries.
01/22/2013 09:56 PMPosted by Grimiku
We know that (for many players) it’s much more rewarding to gear up from items that you find while playing normally than it is to necessarily go through Auction House, and we’re working to make improvements in that area. There are a lot of ways we could attempt to reach that goal, and choosing the best one(s) to go with is not always a fast process.

Grimiku, are you sincere in this? I am going to be able to gear my character through time invested in playing content rather then AH (pardon the crude description)

Playing content = getting drops / loot with tables more like Diablo II or Torchlight II ?

We want further elaboration :)

Edit: I for one would like if the packs and bosses droped only 1 perhaps 2 items per kill but having better chance for upgrade ei. Diablo II or PoE
This post seems to summarize my own feelings as well. While I feel that the severity of some of these issues may differ slightly, each item mentioned is basically what i've been 'feeling' now since day 1.

In terms of priority i'd put the balancing of legendary item stat budgets needs to be the highest. It makes no sense that 99% of a certain kind of legendary 'suck' (and basically cannot be sold or even used) but the 1% that has a certain role becomes so sought after that the average person could not ever even dream of attaining it, due to cost or rarity.

E.g. variability on D2 items was so small, that just getting the item meant something special. Now we hunt and hunt and pray that the version of a legendary item we get doesn't fall into that 99% bucket (which it usually does).

A Harlequins in D2 (shako...) e.g. was amazing and a guaranteed useful item regardless of the life or mana it provided.

Same goes for Andariels Visage, it was a great item regardless of the defense or life leach or enh. def. it had.

Does the system for D3 need to be quite so narrow as what D2 had? I don't think so. But at the same time, it cannot stay as it is and keep long term interest.
In terms of priority i'd put the balancing of legendary item stat budgets needs to be the highest. It makes no sense that 99% of a certain kind of legendary 'suck' (and basically cannot be sold or even used) but the 1% that has a certain role becomes so sought after that the average person could not ever even dream of attaining it, due to cost or rarity.

This is a huge element to fixing the game.

I hate Skorn. Skorn is a terribly designed weapon. No weapon should be THAT good, especially with the way your item system works. It should be awesome for specific interesting reasons, or for certain builds, not because it does flat-out 30k more damage than any other (2handed) legendary. Of course, I know if you get it wrong, we're back to before 1.04 where just about every leg sucked. I don't know. It's a challenge. Hopefully the new director has some ideas on item design.
Sol I've been chasing a non opinionated version of "what went wrong" for a long time now.
I tried to prove art is a version of perfection that can not be generalized.
To avoid being a hypocrite, I attempted to cast off my opinion to search for "what is".
I became a collection of facts and opinions, I lost the ability to differentiate between the two.
I saw causality itself and created a plan to divert it.
I was right about this one thing, I grew arrogant.
Placed a standard of perfection on my execution and became what I set out to stop.

I got my foot stuck in my own trap.
It's easy to get stuck down the path of thinking you can create perfection for everyone.
It's important to step back and remember that art is in the eye of the beholder.

Luckly I have a smart roommate. He wound up to punch me and said :
"So you were right about one thing that applies to everyone, you've grown too arrogant to question yourself, your progression as a individual has stopped"

Has was right.

At the expense of my own reputation, I hope this post brings some clarity to the topic.

Ironically, I made this post two days before JW's departure.

Too much ambition can result in the loss of the values you started with.
It can lead to counter progress.
Just to throw in my opinion on one thing that's been bothering me since launch; The 'forced' story. Because of the events that take place throughout Diablo 3's story, it doesn't make sense to be able to skip around an act or the game, thus why when we start a game we have to pick a quest. It's also because of this path that was chosen for D3 that players are forced to make a new game if they want to visit a different act, with the only exception being if players play through every quest again, to progress to the next act.

This, in my own opinion, is a fundamental flaw in D3. I love this game and have defended it before beta, but it isn't perfect, not yet at least. This flaw, at least for me, makes this game feel extremely small. It feels like four mini games, one for each act. The fact that I cannot make a game to kill the skeleton king and then go straight to ghom takes away so much. The game essentially makes itself smaller, when there is no need. When compared to D2, I rarely ever see anything that D2 did better than D3, and I played D2 since launch for close to seven years. I will however cede that D2's openness considerably enlarged the game for me, at least perception wise. The two games are close when you compare how long it takes to go through starting act 1 until Diablo, but when I entered D2 it felt like one big world, and immersed me far more than D3 does.

My solution? Much like the elective mode introduced in D3, put in an option to disable story / quests. Upon entering a game with this mode on, you don't need to pick a quest or even an act. You start at the last act you stopped at, and every event / mini boss / doorway / boss is open and available, as are each of the waypoints. Currently it doesn't make sense to start the game before the spider queen just so I can kill her, when it will take me way too long to progress the story to get to the butcher, when I only have a limited time to play. I realize this is a personal issue, but to me it's backwards of what D3 is supposed to be able to provide; A quick and easy game to play at the drop of a hat, or a game you can play for hours with both ways having the same rewards based purely on time spent.

I do realize something like this would take a considerable amount of time to implement; Many parts of the game would have to be changed as far as story, quests and events go. I'm not about to say "just throw up some code for a couple days and get it done!", but I would like it to be known that if I had to pick one place for improvement for D3, it would defiantly be this.
01/24/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Grimiku
I extended the posting limit in this thread, and wanted to let you all know that we have been reading your suggestions. A lot of them are really good and we appreciate it.

Are you at liberty to say which suggestions are being considered to even be brought to the table? EDIT: Obviously they will be tweaked as you see fit, but I want to know what ideas you are considering ATM. There was one previous post about this, but I would an update.


We all recognize how difficult it is to actually find an upgrade once you are in the level 60 + Paragon level whatever. farming endgame character part of the game.

My Suggestions and an area that i think would help/fix/re-engage the base of players is the following:

Add Items that are only usable at certain paragon levels!

I remember finding items that I would hold on to that were levels ahead of where I was and it was such a payoff to get to that level and equip my new gear. Why not intorduce new items, new legendaries, rares etc. that are available at 60 (para x).

Thinking about it - they don't even need to be new items that can be existing buffed items that are specific to paragon level. It would add such a layer of itemization to the game AND give people an additional reason to continue to paragon level at the same time.

Has this idea been explored on the forums or discussed at all? The level grind becomes fun again, the new items and item hunt becomes fun again. Heck - the whole game becomes a LOT of fun again instead of mildly fun.

Whith this super gear they can unleash MP X - the original Inferno which was as brutal as it could be, with the Elites/Champs that got all their health back if they killed you and all the crazy stuff that has been nerfed over time back in the game....a true reason to get to Para 100 with Para gear! An endgame if you will.

This idea is probably an ok one, but the problem is the Developers and Jay Wilson also stated that PLvl is just a bonus to enhance gameplay, it is not required. Therefore, no items would have a Plvl requirement because the developers didnt want to force you to obtain Plvls. This may change in future patches, but as of last patch this was the stance, and probably why something like that wasn't implemented.
01/24/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Grimiku
I extended the posting limit in this thread, and wanted to let you all know that we have been reading your suggestions. A lot of them are really good and we appreciate it.

As someone who isn't playing D3 (out of frustration... I want it to be good... I really do) and am completely LOVING Path of Exile (playing it as much if not more than D2 in its hayday) I'm pleased you guys are actively reading this thread. I read the first post, and SOOO much of it was DEAD on. Don't be afraid to make big changes to D3... I'd come back in a heartbeat for a new skill system and new itemization. Take care.
We need more varity of what we can do with our armor that lets us stand apart from each other. What i would like to see and i didn't read all 26 pages to see if anyone else said these things is.
1. Give us some kind of inscriptions to put on our armors. One inscription per armor the basic Dex , Int, Sth and Vit and some class specific one like the ablity to use less mana or a 5 second reduction of of a certain ablitiy cooldown. Something useful!
2. More varities of gems with diffrenet stats for diffrent parts of the armor like attack speed for gloves or extra run speed for boots. That way we dont have to comprimise on what we have to get to keep up in multiplayer. An example is i had to make a choice to either run slower or get an extra 11k damage. Well i took the damage and now i suffer in keeping up with everyone else's clone's.
3. When we level up paragon levels give us some points to put into our skills to make them more powerful. 5 extra base damage per point would be nice just to set us apart in some way.
4.The affixes for elite packs like Fast, Reflect Damage, Molten and Mortar are horribly OP. They should be adjusted a bit. Now i am not saying nerfed to the point where you can stand in the molten fire or take several mortars to the face but we shouldn't have to take one step in them and die. Fast is just TO fast i think but i can deal with it unless it is a combiation of any of the above or all then it is a death trap for 5 or more death's it get's frustrating after the 3rd death. And RD is horrible for me as a wiz and anyone one else that isn't a barb unless you have the extra cash to buy the correct gear. Which shouldn't be a factor at all.
5. Give us more sets that offer godlike stat's not 2 extra arcane regen per sec or 10 arcane on critical hit maybe 20 per crit. Make us feel like gods not lambs.
I am glad the OP found the video that got me excited for D3 looks better than what we got. I rolled a WD and was excited to use the insect swarm only to see it was not EVEN close to what got me excited to play that class. Bring back the Necromancer! I want my undead army back. And for godsake's do something about that horrible barb WW in which all the players that play that spec class suck at it. Make it so they can't just go through all the enemies and leave the entire pack behind for everyone else to clean up. make them bounce of the enemies till the mob dies. Because as a wiz i can't run through the bad guys. It's like you made the game around barbs and then just through in the other classes. They are the only class that can just faceroll everything efficently.
making money is more important than making a great game.

Who would make a 'great game' that only sells to a small group of players according to the group's definition of what is great?

Making a great game that makes lots of money is what's important. They can't please everyone but they sure tried. They beautified the graphics, less eerie music and simplified skill progression to attract more younger players and casual players but alienated the die-hard D2 fans. It's a difficult balance and it's always 20/20 vision on hindsight to claim that they have made mistakes in their decisions.

Frankly I don't find the game bad at all and I would buy their expansion if they should release one. I just hope there won't be any more server downtime problems which to me is most annoying.
If you watched that video, you will notice the comments illustrated how much more they were looking forward to that version's graphics than it actually turned out.

Sadly, i look at that video and i see not much difference in what we have now- than some taken out spells and different UI....
Removing stuff before release always happens. due to technical/design/balance reasons.
The game I saw in the video previews, played in beta, and saw in blizzcon basically hyped me so much to play d3 up until now, and i absolutely love it.

I personally wouldn't like to see changes, but what I would like to see is more additions like blizzard always gives in their content patches and the upcoming expansion.
Happy hunting in-game
I would like to see the forums for this game removed entirely. Otherwise, it's fantastic just like it is. Thanks and keep up the great work.
I would like to contribute to this thread because I really care about this game. First of all that video OP posted really was great and it's a shame the game seems so much different from that, but that aside.

Having played Path of Exile now I really see what I am missing in Diablo 3.

Let me first start by saying what I do like in Diablo 3:
1) Graphics and Cinematic videos
2) Smooth gameplay, skills are fun and don't feel clumsy. (Although the barbarian skills on that video really looked so awsome, shame they didnt left all of them in-game)
3) Storyline
4) I do like the idea of an auction house system, because I love the aspect of trading.

What I am missing:
1) In depth gameplay, for example the passive tree and the skill gems combination in PoE.
This gives us so much to do and so many decision to make, it basically gives you more reason to want to farm other then farming items. I love the idea of having so many possibilities to create your own unique build that works, instead of playing 1 popular build that clearly is better then anything else. This has the potential to remove the feel of boredom the game has now. I dont just want endgame to just be farm items to make gold to be rich and faceroll the game even more. There has to be a reason to farm items, for example to help you create that special build u invisioned when you created your character.

2) Items are lackluster, stats are boring and way to many are plain useless that act as filler to increase RNG. However these stats could be good if u created more options to make them work well, as with a better skill tree system that could let you choose to invest in certain stats, again PoE does this well. Also items need more than just stats, sockets need to be more than just a way to increase a certain stat. Like helmet either exp gain or life.. that's too linear. Make it so that you can experiment and have alot more options with it, I don't want to be a clone of everyone else. Really itemization needs alot of work.

3) Eventhough I like the feel of the action combat in this game, I think it has alot more potential. Don't be afraid to go overboard. Create awsome action, like in the video. I rather have awsome action with gimped damage, then high damage with boring action.

4) PvP, this will only work if you have a much better and diverse skill system that actually let's you create alot more builds. But this really can make endgame so much more fun. For example you could add a pvp-hp bar ontop of your normal hp bar with more health that only works with player attacks. Dekaron (2moons) has this system, it removes the 2 shot pvp that is dueling right now. Also I think arena's are very much needed with ladders, rewards etc.

5) The game shouldn't be so easy....where are the days that tough gameplay made a game fun? Why do developers think new players will only stick around if they can faceroll a game untill endgame? I think that people that will stick around and actually play this game and contribute to it's succes, want to feel the challenge. Why is it either Overpowerd, like 1 shotting or easy mode. Can't there be something in-between? Easy solution? Bosses need more hp, tactical choices need to be made, so you can't regenarate your hp forever with potions. Again PoE does this well, potions have charges and once the charges are out you can't pot yourself anymore unless the boss brings adds you can kill to refill the charges, simply brilliant.

All in all I think I have given some real solutions here to how the game can be improved, and I would like to tell the developers, try out some other ARPG'S out there and implement the good things they have. You guys have the budget, use it and please make this game great as it should have been from the start. In the mean time I am gonna play some PoE, and read the forums from time to time and hope changes will come eventually.
01/24/2013 02:48 PMPosted by pwnTIME
Add Items that are only usable at certain paragon levels!

I think it would be too much a grind to place high paragon level requirements on the best items. There is a reason that no items were level 99 requirement in diablo 2 - because most people never got there.

Besides - more of the same items is the last thing this game needs.

Itemization needs to be overhauled.
01/24/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Grimiku
I extended the posting limit in this thread, and wanted to let you all know that we have been reading your suggestions. A lot of them are really good and we appreciate it.

As long as you're listening to suggestions:

1) It seems like BoA crafting is your 'solution' to people who don't like feeling forced to go to the AH for the best gear.

===1A) In order for crafting to be able to be best in slot, the items need to be able to break the same rules that certain Legendaries can break. IE: Mempo of Twilight (head) has IAS. No other helmet in the game can have IAS, so a crafted helm cannot beat a Mempo. Lacuni Prowlers have IAS and Run Speed, which no other wrists can have. Etc.

===1B) BoA items are drawing similar ire from players as the AH is, because they are a further departure from the series and feel very MMO-ish. Rather than using BoA to 'combat' the AH, why not just make crafted items and found items have a stat bonus for the player who crafted them or found them? A small stat boost for a self-found or self-made item, or maybe even an extra affix, that disappear if the item is sold on the AH. Also, items could deteriorate every time they are sold on the Auction House (lose a small % of a random stat every time they are sold).

2) Dump the cooldowns on signature abilities like Teleport and Leap Attack and significantly reduce the cooldowns on other powerful abilities (Archon, WotB, etc... maybe even up the resouce cost). Managing our resources should be the only limitation on what we can and can't do.

3) Bring back Rune Ranks. Allow players to permanently beef up a skill by 1 point for every 10 Paragon levels. In Beta when Rune Ranks were removed, all skills were set to power level 5 out of 7. Thus, allow each skill to be powered up to two times. This would give players 10 opportunities to power up select skills and introduce some meaningful customization.

4) Allow players to allocate their own stat points gained through Paragon levels.

===4A) Beef up the secondary attributes of stats so that players actually have a choice in the matter and not an illusion of choice. This could apply universally to each stat or be altered on a class-by-class basis. IE: Dexterity no longer gives Dodge, but instead the secondary effect of Dexterity is +1% crit chance per 50 points of Dex. Maybe that's too powerful for Monks and Demon Hunters, so maybe Dex still gives Dodge for DH and Monks, but gives Crit Chance for Barbs, Crit Damage for Wizards, and a little of both for WDs.

===4B) Or maybe even offer stats per Paragon level that aren't normally offered. IE. In leiu of giving yourself +5 strength every Paragon level, you could give yourself 1% IAS or 1% run speed or 1% block.

===4C) Or even introduce a stat tree exclusively for Paragon leveling (with beefed up secondary stats): Example: As a Barb, I could give myself +5 Strength for 4 Paragon levels, and at the 5th Paragon Level, underneath the four +5 Str nodes that I've unlocked, is a +1% Damage node. Or I could give myself +5 Vit for 4 Paragon levels and the 5th node is +1% life. I could give myself +5 Dex for 4 levels (getting 0.1% Crit Chance) and the 5th node is another +5 Dex (to round out to a total of +0.5% Crit Chance) and also gives me +1% Crit Damage.

5) Implement an expensive but feasible respec token, similar to D2, for both Rune Ranks and Paragon Stats. Perhaps make this account bound, perhaps not. Perhaps limit the amount of times a single character can respec, maybe 5 times?
    Scams due to an imbalanced loot table creating a dysfunctional AH

Due to how the loot table has been created, it has along with it brought along a phenomenon to the players, that's leeching the life out of new and poor players alike, being all sucked to the hands of the elitest players.

Livestreamers, a prime example of a scam running outside of the AH, only possible due to the item market. They reap off the newbies that view their channel, successful Livestreamers run a scamming pyramid scheme to take their viewers gold in-game and essentially real life by asking for donations. But donations are donated and therefore can't be considered malicious, but when you trick players to benefit them, like doing fake giveaways of items that are of no worth, just cause they are Legendary, then buying unidentified Legendaries cheap from the group of inexperienced viewers who think they are establishing a personal relationship with the streamer when they are just being ripped off.

One instance of a well-known streamer buying UNID'd Echoing Furies for like 13M or something, turns around and IDs like 6 out of 20 of them being worth 100-300M. You may say, well these people sold them to make a quick cash, but they are being robbed out of their idea that they can slowly progress up the ladder if they sell it for less gold than it could be, than if they just found a completely useless Legendary if they ID'd it. Which they would actually be able to do if the loot was balanced, items semi-worthy would be at a reasonable price on the AH... but there's just a huge gap or jump from mediocre items to actually good items right now.

The system is broken to make you think that way. It's because they have found so many useless ones before they began selling them off UNID'd, when the truth is you have to ID those highest tier Legendaries because they are the single doorway for you to become a part or get closer to being elite due to the broken loot table. If it were balanced, no one would consider selling off their Legendary UNID'd, or if they did, it would certainly be worth it's price.

So, the newbs sell off their elitehood, making the one that's already elite even more elite. They spent like 260m for 20 EFs 13M ea, and made over 500M profit. By having this flaw in the system where players are being confused just by the mere fact that Legendaries are not even Legendary, players commonly make mistakes of selling off UNID, when in a working system they should never have to.

To effectively prove my point, I'll do some 'pseudo'mathematics. 6/20 EF was ~200M per, 6 players out of 20 would have become rich, but in actuality, EFs are rare so they have a huge chance of being extremely good, one of the only items you really have a reason to ID. So, if EFs are rare, how rare? Out of how many people did 20 EFs come from?

Say (x amount of) 100,000. 20/(x) (:1/5,000) is a small percentage, doesn't sound too imbalanced right? Well, now look at it like this. The elites, being the streamers or players who monopolize the UNID market, since they have enough funds from the past, presumably by slowly scamming their viewers in the past... bought 20 EFs from the (x) 100,000 that had to farm to find them.

So, they essentially took advantage of (x) 100,000 people. That's the power of raking in the benefits based on something that you wouldn't have been able to accomplish yourself. And so suddenly, they have 20 EFs, just because they had a large enough audience to sell them these.

Now, am I saying that they are stealing items? No. They paid a considerable amount of cash for those UNIDs, but regardless, like I explained above, the system is what allowed them to do this, because of the effect of useless drops has on the general playerbase. Had it been balanced, they wouldn't have had such a huge range in advantage, because most players would know to never sell of their UNID. They do it because they are desperate for cash.

But of course, being a popular streamer is what makes it so much more effective, it's like having an advertisement campaign. Without it, players would have a much harder time finding such good UNID deals in order to profit exponentially from. In the general market, the UNID price is probably more fair. Regardless, this effect is only occurring due to the imbalanced drop table.

Yes, had one person kept 1 EF, they may not have gotten anything, but the chances are in your favor, if you do get it, you win the game once in for all, nearly, considering you don't get scammed right after by using the AH.

The fact that players can consolidate their chance by buying multiple UNIDs gives them the edge over all others that farm individually, it is effectively more worth it to just buy UNIDs that can actually roll well with cash you got from a drop, because the amount you spend, if you spend it on the right type of UNID, will most likely yield you a profit due to the instability of the drop table.

The only trick with it is you need a lot of money first, and the problem is no one but the top 5% that got lucky, botted, cheated, or used the RMAH have that money, and since the drop table is made in a way that makes players want to sell their items UNID, the people that have generated enough money can now do this sort of consolidation and make way more money in a way shorter time than had they farmed those UNIDs themselves. They could either partake in this, buying of UNIDs, or they could play the AH. But in the end, it's all taking advantage of other people in order to become the best. This couldn't happen if the system was balanced.

I completely disagree with this section too. Sorry OP.

People REALLY enjoy the whole trading on UNID items. This was actually one of the most exciting/beloved parts of D2. The fact that people are forced to go outside of the Auction House IS the problem, not the other way around.

Imagine if UNID Legendaries were made available on the Auction House under the Commodities section. Then the market powers of the AH would take care of this entire issue. Moderately rich players could dabble in the market and buy up a couple EFs at a time, while Uber rich people could buy up 20-50 EFs at a time. But that would drive up the prices for the Joe Schmo farmers. Each legendary the legit farmer finds could be sacrificed to the Gamblers for the current market value. More gamblers, higher prices. Thus, the gap between the groups becomes driven by the thirst/success for the next UNID gift.

Problem solved.

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