The Economy Will Crash - Duping Up Daily

Wizard
Prev 1 3 4 5 Next
Value is relative to the individual. Your own valuation of these 'fake' items is perfectly valid, and therefore precludes you from ever partaking in the purchasing of gold or goods on the RMAH.

That same valuation can (and is) drastically different for every person who plays this game. The fact is that people spend real world currency for items in this game. It occurs hundreds or thousands of times a day. This links in game supply and demand to real world currencies as well.

I personally see absolutely no reason why I could not obtain something reasonably close to 2500 USD for my character right now. Its obvious you feel that is an absurd value and would never consider buying at such a price, but the fact remains that the market valuation exists.

Discretionary income is always used in part for entertainment beyond 'quality of life' improvements such as a vacuum cleaner. That doesn't make such purchasing decisions 'wrong' or 'right'. They are YOUR decisions and YOURS ALONE to make. The product of your labors is transferred to money, and you then spend the money to transfer back into a good or service VOLUNTARILY based on where you value said product.

01/27/2013 02:06 PMPosted by Effinlag
Am i happy i made a little money off of this silly game? Yes, but i also feel like a scamster who sold people valueless pixels for their hard earned cash. In fact, if i had done what i did on this game in real life, it would be unethical at best, and borderline illegal at worst.


That is insanity, this is nothing even close to a 'snake oil salesman' scenario. No-one is trying to use misdirection or subterfuge to overvalue D3 items for sale. The auction house provides every single detail for all items for sale to permit the buyer to make a 100% fully informed decision.

In a free market the onus is always on the buyer to make informed purchases. Common sense and basic protections again unfair business practices are fine, but generally the more Free a marketplace is the better, but only as long as the buyers arn't lazy and inform themselves about what they are buying.

If the buyer does not become informed before purchasing, this is NO FAULT of the seller.

01/27/2013 02:06 PMPosted by Effinlag
Im not talking about wealth. Ive met wealthy people who were poor, and poor people who were wealthy. Im guessing you are young, not just for believing virtual pixels that do not exist outside of this game have value, but for believing that those pixels when added up cost more than many people earn in a month, and that is their 'real' value. Its laughable and sad at the same time.


It's beyond me to think that someone whose obviously into their middle ages still hasn't grasped even the basics of Free Market Enterprise. The very most basic tenet of this system is something's value is exactly as much as someone else will pay for it. Just because the good or service is 'virtual' doesn't mean its 'unreal'. It still exists, its just not physical.
shandler, wish I knew you in college. Would have paid you to write my econ essay's.
By releasing items at a slow rate, they maximize their profit.


They're also making it easier for Blizzard to catch them by doing this.

- snip -

Then they run a search to see which of those people have had more than one Mempo #24356879 in their possession at any given time (since it's pretty rare that the someone bought the same dupe legitimately on the AH more than once). BINGO, it pops up that John Smith has had 6 Mempo #24356879 in his possession over the course of 5 weeks.


Firstly, excellent post, Malakai, but i would like to comment on the above, by quoting you a comment from earlier in the thread:

I'm pretty sure each account comes with 2 unquestioned rollbacks. $40 per account and in 1 rollback you could make Billions....

They just have to buy new accounts - simple.


When i commented earlier, i was almost going to say they could also look at people in posession of dupes as well as multiple identical items on the auction house, but then i realised it would be no real issue to a) spread those items out on multiple accounts and b) dupe items over a period of time rather than making 100 of them and storing them in one place.

Food for thought, anyway.

01/27/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Malakai
It costs them to not only employ a person to do this, but once a duper is banned it's less gold flowing through the system from people buying the duped goods, less RMAH cuts that Blizzard gets from duped items and/or gold from sales of dupes being sold on RMAH, etc. So it costs them big time when it comes to real money to track down and ban dupers.


Finally, just wanted to point out that, as Shandlar once mentioned, even with very generous estimates, RMAH profits are very likely a miniscule percentage of the overall profits from Diablo III thus far. I dare say that expansion sales would be a much, much larger factor than RMAH cuts. That said, we don't have any numbers ourselves, and at the very least i am sure you are right that it is a factor.

01/27/2013 02:27 PMPosted by Shandlar
Value is relative to the individual.


Everything you have said in this thread is pure gold. This quote in particular is worth repeating.
What is "duping?"
01/27/2013 02:06 PMPosted by Effinlag
Im guessing you are young, not just for believing virtual pixels that do not exist outside of this game have value, but for believing that those pixels when added up cost more than many people earn in a month, and that is their 'real' value. Its laughable and sad at the same time.


More judgemental posts, seems to be alot of those around lately.

01/27/2013 02:06 PMPosted by Effinlag
I made about 200 dollars on the RMAH when this game first came out, and now those same items would barely fetch a million gold each, just 7 months later.


So in one statement you patronise someone for believing pixels have value then right below that you write that you yourself made $200 from the RMAH? So obviously , from your own experience, pixels have value.

01/27/2013 02:06 PMPosted by Effinlag
This is a farming game, where you have to farm to use the AH. Realistically you will never gear a character off drops found on your own, which is why new crafting recipes are being added in the next patch.


Of course you can "realistically" farm your own drops to play this game. Plenty of people have written that they've cleared inferno in self found drops only. Obviously its not as effective as buying BIS items for each slot, but its still possible and some choose to play this way.
Is there a simple way for players to see the ID numbers on their items?
Not that I know of. I thought Diabloprogress.com used to track numbers when this game first came out, but I just checked that site and it looks like they no longer track that information.


More judgemental posts, seems to be alot of those around lately.

So in one statement you patronise someone for believing pixels have value then right below that you write that you yourself made $200 from the RMAH? So obviously , from your own experience, pixels have value.

Of course you can "realistically" farm your own drops to play this game. Plenty of people have written that they've cleared inferno in self found drops only. Obviously its not as effective as buying BIS items for each slot, but its still possible and some choose to play this way.


Just because i sold some things, doesnt mean they really had any value. People waste money on food with no nutritional value, buy cars for more than the bluebook listing, etc etc. Then again, paper currency is intrinsically valueless to begin with, so in that sense, i guess it was a fair trade.

Sure you could eventually clear mp0 inferno on self found drops. Itll be slow going, but what i was saying is that getting to a decent mid level gear set is not going to happen on self found farming without a lot of luck, and hundreds of hours invested. This is what blizz will be addressing in coming patches from what theyve been saying. They dont want people to have to be AH dependent to progress.


More judgemental posts, seems to be alot of those around lately.

So in one statement you patronise someone for believing pixels have value then right below that you write that you yourself made $200 from the RMAH? So obviously , from your own experience, pixels have value.

Of course you can "realistically" farm your own drops to play this game. Plenty of people have written that they've cleared inferno in self found drops only. Obviously its not as effective as buying BIS items for each slot, but its still possible and some choose to play this way.


Just because i sold some things, doesnt mean they really had any value-


No, it does not work like that. I think the problem here is there is confusion with regard to the definition of "value". The concept you're invoking here is not value, so stop using it.

If an item -- be it made of plastic, cardboard, ferarri steel, or pixels -- attracts the attention of buyers, and they decide that they want it and are freely willing to pay what they think is fair, then there necessarily IS value right there, whether or not YOU personally agree with their decision or beliefs. The value is there.
the only difference is if you can capitalize it or expense it off on your own balance sheet =)
01/27/2013 04:52 PMPosted by Effinlag
Just because i sold some things, doesnt mean they really had any value. People waste money on food with no nutritional value, buy cars for more than the bluebook listing, etc etc.


So there you go. The things which you mention have value after all. Maybe not to you, but as long as people are willing to pay for them, there is value in those things.
01/26/2013 09:14 AMPosted by James1v12
It's sad, but true.


True? It is not proven beside you are able to see the end result of identical items.

Seeing a dead body does not proves that he/she was murdered.
01/27/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Malakai
People also need to understand that from a business standpoint, it costs money to hire people to weed through all this information and catch dupers, and there's no monetary return on that investment.


Here is my problem.

EVERYTHING is stored server side.

A correctly coded database, we are in fact playing inside a database, and not a particularly big or complicated one in the scheme of things, could trivially and automatically take care of duping, instantaneously. No manual intervention required, no massive resources needed to resolve the problem.

See my previous post in this thread.

People have a bad habit of "working inside the box" i.e. approaching a problem from only one point of view, or code themselves into a corner, i.e. they know there is a better way to do something, but now the code is so complicated, the best solution is no longer practical to implement.

NB: 10million users by 10,000 items = 100 billion records.


Here is my problem.

EVERYTHING is stored server side.

A correctly coded database, we are in fact playing inside a database, and not a particularly big or complicated one in the scheme of things, could trivially and automatically take care of duping, instantaneously. No manual intervention required, no massive resources needed to resolve the problem.

See my previous post in this thread.

People have a bad habit of "working inside the box" i.e. approaching a problem from only one point of view, or code themselves into a corner, i.e. they know there is a better way to do something, but now the code is so complicated, the best solution is no longer practical to implement.

NB: 10million users by 10,000 items = 100 billion records.


i so agree with this and also dont undersand either how they have this problem or why its occuring at this scale
01/27/2013 06:15 PMPosted by Whisper
A correctly coded database, we are in fact playing inside a database, and not a particularly big or complicated one in the scheme of things, could trivially and automatically take care of duping, instantaneously. No manual intervention required, no massive resources needed to resolve the problem.


Whisper, i read your previous post in this thread, and it seems likely that you have more knowledge of database design than i do. I have dabbled, but i'm not an expert. Call me ignorant, but i have some questions:

Does every single item in the game really have a unique identifier? What about stackable gems or crafting reagents? Wouldn't that simply be too much information to store? How many of those things do you think have dropped in the game so far? Surely more than 280 trillion?

When someones account is rolled back, which seems to be the main method of duping from my brief investigation of the matter, how do you handle the restored items? Are they given a new primary key, or do they over-write the old one? Does the game track every player an item has belonged to in the past? Wouldn't that also be too much information to store?

If it doesn't, then the only way to know what items someone had, in order to restore them, would be some kind of "snapshot" of their character from a recent backup, right? But how much information can you store in that backup? Do you store the ID of every single gem, item and crafting reagent? Wouldn't that, again, be too much information to store?

I'm going to go ahead and completely disagree with your theory that the Diablo III database is "not a particularly big or complicated one" because even from just five minutes of thinking on the subject, i am already confused. I would like to think i know how to write PHP and SQL code to automatically read / write / delete database entries and handle duplicates without issue, and i have done this, but i'm not ever worried about storage space or execution time in the slightest. It occurs to me that in such a huge system, certain "shortcuts" are simply unavoidable and without exhaustive testing, there is almost always going to be a loophole that you didn't think of.

I dunno, like i said, forgive my ignorance, but it doesn't seem as simple as you are saying.

That all said, there were some constructive ideas earlier in this thread, and i certainly don't think the problem is unsolvable. But i definitely don't think it's a simple one.


More judgemental posts, seems to be alot of those around lately.

So in one statement you patronise someone for believing pixels have value then right below that you write that you yourself made $200 from the RMAH? So obviously , from your own experience, pixels have value.

Of course you can "realistically" farm your own drops to play this game. Plenty of people have written that they've cleared inferno in self found drops only. Obviously its not as effective as buying BIS items for each slot, but its still possible and some choose to play this way.


Just because i sold some things, doesnt mean they really had any value. People waste money on food with no nutritional value, buy cars for more than the bluebook listing, etc etc. Then again, paper currency is intrinsically valueless to begin with, so in that sense, i guess it was a fair trade.

Sure you could eventually clear mp0 inferno on self found drops. Itll be slow going, but what i was saying is that getting to a decent mid level gear set is not going to happen on self found farming without a lot of luck, and hundreds of hours invested. This is what blizz will be addressing in coming patches from what theyve been saying. They dont want people to have to be AH dependent to progress.


Value is in eye of beholder.. er or most important the payor of said item. I think 90% of my fellow CM are foolish cause they buy superfluous gear beyond what is needed to face roll but i don't begrudge or berate them for it, free choice. Likewise if they drive a rip off corvette and I have a smart car I could care less. Different strokes for different folks.

As far as AH anyone can face roll this game with found items thanks to AH. You trade inapplicable items for those that are applicable to your spec. I see nothing evil about it - helpful in fact.

Only thing hurting us is blizz's failure to deal with duping lowering fruits of our labors and thieves reap rewards..
Well spoken so true. I cant believe blizzard is doing this again. Really! Are you just going to let d3 be d2 ? LMAO the meaning of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. My point made goodluck
01/27/2013 08:35 PMPosted by Dragonfly
A correctly coded database, we are in fact playing inside a database, and not a particularly big or complicated one in the scheme of things, could trivially and automatically take care of duping, instantaneously. No manual intervention required, no massive resources needed to resolve the problem.


Whisper, i read your previous post in this thread, and it seems likely that you have more knowledge of database design than i do. I have dabbled, but i'm not an expert. Call me ignorant, but i have some questions:

Does every single item in the game really have a unique identifier? What about stackable gems or crafting reagents? Wouldn't that simply be too much information to store? How many of those things do you think have dropped in the game so far? Surely more than 280 trillion?

/snip


You raise some good points.

My solution was to address items only, not crafting materials and gems. Even my solution may crack under that sort of load. :)

Anyhow, in terms of databases, you look at things like youtube, amazon, most decent banks financial databases, it not that big of a deal. Yes of course it has to be robust and handle lots of transactions and queries, but in the scheme of databases, is it really all that sophisticated a database?
Noticed it too several times with Vile Wards or Nats boots. Yesterday even with Relentless chest.

Duping flipping all crap players try hard to get this game down.
i wanna buy em cheap >_<

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum