It's Not That D3 is a Bad Game...

General Discussion
It's actually really good.

** Well done musical score
** Nice graphics with good destruction physics
** Well done and detailed cinematics (although a predictable story)
** Great gameplay with other characters, random elites and semi random dungeons
** Random loot drops (albeit most of them are crapola, the concept of random loot is cool)
** etc. etc. please feel free to add to the list

You can tell D3 has a high level of polish and (continued) effort by the dev team to make the game the best it can be.

Now here it comes....

Where Diablo 3 has erred (in my humble opinion), was in the fundamentals. Blizzard changed what made Diablo.... Well, Diablo. I think you can argue about cooldowns or potion spamming but the biggest fundamental change was the removal of skill points and skill tree. This alone changed the game so much and thus is why so many are angry.

Think about it. Assuming you were an avid fan of the below games... How would you feel if:
Starcraft 2 came out as turn based instead of RTS?
WoW 2 came out as an FPS?
Some might like it, but others might feel like too much of what makes the game is gone.

All in all D3 is a great game. I personally play it often. I just think changing the fundamentals is what really has some folks upset.
I wouldn't even go so far to say skill points need to come back but more skills in general.. Great you get to lvl 30 you've not got all the skills possible and sadly can only use 6 at a time.. How about some different skills in general? better pets for the which doctor? I'm sure there is some awesome combat skills we could think of for barbs, DH's, and monks.. Just need more variety please
sorry but i stoped reading at the skill tree part.

skill tree did not make diablo "diablo", if it did it would of been in diablo 1.

all 3 diablo games all have 3 different skill systems

D1 = randomly found books in randomly generated dungens
D2 = skill tree with lvl up
D3 = multiple skills with multiple varents you can choose once unlocked via levels
I really liked the game at first. It plays like WoW jr. , but that's Ok. I didn't even mind the very infrequent trips to the gold ah to buy my 5000 gold caliber upgrades. I should have known the game was broken at this point, but I didn't. I just went to the ah when I found myself being totally pwnd by mobs. By the time I reached inferno act 2, it became obvious (even to me) that the game was pay2win. This was back around 1.03. I never did finish it.

I have to disagree with you on the story. I thought it was horrible and made almost no sense at all. I think it was an error on their part to demystify the angels - especially making them so inept and irrational. I also got pretty tired of tyrial's incessant crying.

The bottom line is that they made two very big errors:
1. Itemization (as we all know)
2. Removing the ability to play single player - or at least removing the fun.
The best thing they did for D3 was the Act 2 cinematic.
D1 = randomly found books in randomly generated dungens
D2 = skill tree with lvl up
D3 = multiple skills with multiple varents you can choose once unlocked via levels

However... It is the skill points that are so fondly missed.
01/29/2013 06:05 PMPosted by Zebulun
** Well done musical score

I'm pretty sure you left out RMAH....take RMAH away and a huge problem of Diablo 3 will be solved.
01/29/2013 06:05 PMPosted by Zebulun
the fundamentals
exactly. and if u ain't got those, u ain't got a gg.

so yeah, not that it's a "bad" game, just that it completely failed the diablo legacy and let down all the fans.

...not that it's a "bad" game, it's just that i have 10s if not 100s of "better" games that cost me less. (Literally. Thanks, Steam.)
01/30/2013 03:56 AMPosted by STG
the fundamentals
exactly. and if u ain't got those, u ain't got a gg.

so yeah, not that it's a "bad" game, just that it completely failed the diablo legacy and let down all the fans.

...not that it's a "bad" game, it's just that i have 10s if not 100s of "better" games that cost me less. (Literally. Thanks, Steam.)

Not trying to troll, but how is it not a bad game? Lots of people who dislike the game say "it's not a bad game, but it's not for me" or something along those lines. I just don't understand how it's a good game in any overall sense.

It has no meaningful customization. It ruined the storyline completely of a once rather interesting series. it actually encourages you to cheat. There's less than zero reason to replay it. There's virtually no social aspect whatsoever. There's no competitive aspect whatsoever other than comparing DPS on the armory. It has an inbuilt system which makes finding upgrades for yourself almost completely impossible unless you ignore it.

Not sure what there is to like. And I really shake my head at "gamers" who think sparkly graphics and a once-great reputation make for a good game.
It's not that it's a bad game, it's that it just doesn't hold my interest anymore, like at all. And after one hour playing another game that actually is an ARPG, I never want to play D3 again, no matter what they do to it.

Oh, and it's bad game.
Its a bad game, the overwhelming hate is proof.

People like me gave it a chance and played still hoping that we'll find something that will make us enjoy the game.

Lots of paragon level 100s say the game is bad.
It is at least for me.
So this is how it'll work.

They implement attribute and skill points - > i spent these points - > boom i am having a blast all of a sudden!

wow. I didn't new it was that simple!
Things that make Diablo III a bad game:

Run speed is too slow
1+ minute cooldowns make combat feel slow
Endless monster affixes that cause your character to be stunned, rooted, feared, and stuck make characters feel weak
Loot is nothing but a couple useful affixes
PVP is non-existent for almost a year
Maps are barely random
Forced dialog over and over and over is incomprehensibly annoying
Can't jump between acts without leaving and remaking the game
No point in grouping with others
AH has ruined the trading community
RMAH has encouraged bots
Social features are embarrassing (chat channel support is minimal, no clans, no custom games, no reason to group)
Skill tree is only one of the elements of what this game needs. Its needs character creation!

Right now the game makes your character for you. You don't have any influence on it except gear.
And here comes another thing - itemization.
Making so much main stats on items makes your "base stats" not so much important. So basically the game is all about getting gear instead of creating a strong character.

What i want to say here is that the core of the game was designed in wrong way, Blizz made flat simple action/slasher game out of the best ARPG franchise and that's why Diablo fans are angry.
01/29/2013 06:05 PMPosted by Zebulun
WoW 2 came out as an FPS?

I understand your argument here, but dude, this is really reaching. Most you could say is "WoW 2 as a first-person RPG like Skyrim," but even that...Elder Scrolls games have always been entirely personal and realistic situations. Warcraft has always been cartoony, it wouldn't translate just by virtue of the fact that most GOOD first-person games have a very REAL element to them.

01/29/2013 06:05 PMPosted by Zebulun
the biggest fundamental change was the removal of skill points and skill tree.

You're right that it's a huge fundamental change. You're right that such a change has made a TON of people in the community angry.

However, I don't think this makes Diablo what it is. I've always found Diablo players to be extremely creative in how they use in-game systems to build characters however they want. D3 is released WITHOUT stat point allocation and skill trees, and suddenly that creativity vanishes.

I'm sorry, but builds in D2 weren't creative or unique because points were slotted into certain stats, or skill points were dumped into maybe five skills, and the rest by the time you beat Hell Baal are scattered to buff a few low level prerequisites. They were creative because THOUGHT was put into how to make those sub-classes powerful specialists.

Honestly, D3 does NOT have to include stat point allocation. What they SHOULD do (and I'm fine if they don't do this, it would just help) is to improve what stats actually do. Non-primaries are still important, in my opinion, but they don't do enough to make buffing them appealing for very many people.

Strength should affect Armor...but it should also affect standard non-skill melee damage (something next to NO ONE bothers to use, even the people who want to make dagger wielding tank DHs).

Dexterity should affect Dodge...but it should also affect Crit Chance and Crit Damage. Even a tenth of a percent extra chance and damage per point of Dex would still make increasing it appealing to just about EVERY class.

Intelligence should affect All Resist...but it should also affect resource pools. Like Dex, even a tenth of a point extra resource per point of Intel would make it appealing enough of an option. Spirit and Fury Generators suddenly become reassessed. Critical Mass and APOC are less needed. WD and DH skills are reconnoitered.

Vitality should affect Life...but it should also affect Physical Resist, Movement Speed, and Life Regen. Like above, maybe only a little bit per point of Vit, it'd still make it better to buff. You'd have extremely "vital" characters sprinting through levels and taking next to no damage from melee.

So stat point allocation? Really old style and I'm happy to see it go. I'd just like to see stats mean more.

And skill trees? The CMs and devs have said it before...skill trees offer an illusion of choice. For one thing, it makes most characters throwaway experiments. For another thing, people think it provides "permanence in decision making." Yet, in D2, there are still opt-outs that, to be honest, are poorly designed as an add on. Akara can respec you three times (IF you make it to Hell, once per diff, and if you need to respec in Normal, you may was well just start from scratch), and if you jump through hoops picking up "essences" in Hell by beating bosses, you can craft a Token of Absolution in the cube...of course, Akara is the only reasonable option there...if you're strong enough to survive through beating Hell bosses enough times to pick up the required essences, chances are, you don't NEED to respec...and at that point, respecing may entirely ruin your character to the point where attempting to get those essences again could cause your character to be so screwed, they may need to be trashed.

Hell, even Path of Exile, a game considered to be "what Diablo 3 should've been," doesn't even offer full permanence. Hardcore characters aren't lost forever, they're just moved to Softcore...and until you hit level 20, you can allegedly get respec points from Orbs of Regret (interesting name).

So truthfully, people don't want "permanence." Permanence is an old method of making a game difficult that's dated and obsolete. It's far better to offer most people the same options and see what they do with those options.

"But I don't feel unique compared to other players, because they can use the same skills as me!"

So...use different skills then! Equip different styles of gear. There are plenty of ways to customize your character in D3, that will only undoubtedly expand. Skill trees aren't the end-all be-all of character customization.

The MOST I'd like to see done with skills (and truthfully, it's not necessary) is to have skill experience, similar (fine) to Path of Exile, where using a skill more makes it stronger. It still rewards players for time and effort invested, and making the choice to buff certain skills, but it doesn't compromise the freedom players have to change their character.

So OP, you're's not a bad game. But breaking it down to stat points and skill trees? I'm done hearing that.
Music? What music? You mean that "epic" WoW score? See previous Diablo games for music.

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