Wizard skills - The Great Overhaul

General Discussion
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So your whole gripe against this thread is because you think I "hid" a CM buff in there? Seriously?

Arcane Orbit is not a spammable spell and won't be even with the suggested changes. When you recast Arcane Orbit before all 4 orbs explode, you replace all the remaining orbs, and when they spawn there will be a spawning animation that has a few semi-empty frames that won't do damage.

With any CM gear-set that's worth its weight, you will spam Explosive Blast. You can't spam Arcane Orbit. Your argument is moot.

Dragonfly understands my reasoning for not nerfing CM yet (though he disagrees, but kudos to him for at least being open-minded). You seem to be so far up the hate-wagon that you need it laid out before you plain and simple, so here it is:

There's too many players with money invested in CM/WW builds right now to take it away at once. If you create more highly-viable builds, over time a large portion of players will flood over to that side. THEN if CM is still overpowered, you can knock it down a bit and there will be less complain because there are other viable builds and less people geared up for it.

And before you throw your !@#$ at me, I don't play CM anymore. I used to be one of the first back when ET had its proc coefficients unnerfed. Back then it was cool because Inferno was hard and you felt like Jesus when you played Public Games. Now it's lame as %^-* because over half of the good people play it, and the vast majority of the noobs with credit cards take dumps on your character because the thinking and originality required initially is now common knowledge.

If you're looking for a cool build to play, try Blizzard + Star Pact + Prism builds. They will be the new thing in 1.07, and gearing for it is currently vastly underpriced. I've always been one who likes to be ahead of the trend, so seriously, don't judge people until you've at least asked a few questions.
@Shuun, there was way too much ignorance and hostility in your post for me to even want to address the points you bring up with any serious thought. You assume way too much in telling us what we are thinking. However, i'm glad you had the opportunity to vent and hope you feel better now. Seriously, "CM forever" is a concept that pisses me off too :P

As for what i would do with the new Arcane Orbit, now that arcane damage can snare at 60% due to the new Temporal Flux i'd probably try replacing Frost Nova in CM/WW and see what happens. Or maybe replace Slow Time in my LL / Meteor build, since i'm only using that for a snare anyway.

@necro, yes, Blizzard is looking pretty good in 1.07... actually i was thinking of using that in place of Slow Time as well in my build - with Arcane Dynamo buffing it, Blizzard damage could get as high as 1000% over 6 seconds. Not too bad really!

As far as Star Pact goes, i think that's a viable build too, but i see it as more of a kite/dps build than a CM build, especially because of the very specific gear requirements. Star Pact alone just doesn't have the proc rate to keep things like Diamond Skin and Explosive Blast going constantly, even when it only costs 15 AP, and the coefficient on Blizzard isn't going to help much in my opinion. Who knows though, you might be onto something... if different snares stacked (even multiplicatively), for example, it might be a whole different story.
I may or may not use CM. I currently have the gear to drop Star Pact to 18 AP without Diamond Skin - Prism (-20 is max. I'm at -17). And yes, it will mostly be a kiting Wizard. But if you're doing enough damage, kiting works.
02/04/2013 05:00 PMPosted by necropuddi
There's too many players with money invested in CM/WW builds right now to take it away at once.


There is not a single stat that is CM-Specific. NOT A SINGLE USED.

You could use +crit chance to energy twister, but nobody uses it. If you are trying to tell me that wizard stacking attack speed and crit is some sort of 'build' that's extraordinary you got to be kidding me! That 'CM build' you are talking about is the DEFAULT and intended way how MOST of the builds should work, if you actually know and understand resource system of wizard.

CRTI+AS+APOC+MAXAPOC = DEFAULT. Not(!) CM specific. How did you even come to that ridiculous statement? You are just using that complete nonsense as argument for not nerfing CM - its invalid!

If you would have stacked stuff with +crit chance to energy twister, you could argue. But then again - it has nothing to do with CM wizard as is and the ridiculously op synergy it provides.

And im not venting anything here, im trying to lead you all out of your ignorance and lies.

About arcane orbit having no cool-downs, you provide no argument as of why would a damage spell have no cool-down AND no cast time, and as far as i can see you are bluntly lying and playing dumb.
02/05/2013 07:22 AMPosted by Shuun
There's too many players with money invested in CM/WW builds right now to take it away at once.


There is not a single stat that is CM-Specific. NOT A SINGLE USED.

You could use +crit chance to energy twister, but nobody uses it. If you are trying to tell me that wizard stacking attack speed and crit is some sort of 'build' that's extraordinary you got to be kidding me! That 'CM build' you are talking about is the DEFAULT and intended way how MOST of the builds should work, if you actually know and understand resource system of wizard.

CRTI+AS+APOC+MAXAPOC = DEFAULT. Not(!) CM specific. How did you even come to that ridiculous statement? You are just using that complete nonsense as argument for not nerfing CM - its invalid!

If you would have stacked stuff with +crit chance to energy twister, you could argue. But then again - it has nothing to do with CM wizard as is and the ridiculously op synergy it provides.

And im not venting anything here, im trying to lead you all out of your ignorance and lies.

About arcane orbit having no cool-downs, you provide no argument as of why would a damage spell have no cool-down AND no cast time, and as far as i can see you are bluntly lying and playing dumb.


settle down tiger.

We can get away from CM quite easily with buffs to the elemental sides of things. There are so many damn elemental skills....yet almost no way to make a build around them.

i read or heard somewhere that they didn't want the wizard to be an elemental char like the sorc from d2.............Uhhh then why are those passives even there?

Furthermore, I think one of the problems with lack of skill progression is that you end up having to choose 1 aspect of a skill that might have been tight where you able to level it up all the way. an example is Slow Time.

1 rune gives you more damage
1 rune gives you faster atk speed in bubble
1 rune fives you slower enemies
1 rune gives you a larger radius.
1 rune gives you slowed enemies after they leave the bubble for 3 sec...

instead of making us pick 1 aspect of this. we could have chosen to create a build around this 1 skill by being able to have all of these effects after 5-10 points put into this skill.

just my opinion
02/05/2013 08:11 AMPosted by TheEnzVolta
settle down tiger.


What? Stop spamming nonsense.

[
instead of making us pick 1 aspect of this. we could have chosen to create a build around this 1 skill by being able to have all of these effects after 5-10 points put into this skill.
just my opinion


Do you even understand what you are suggesting?

So instead of choosing 1 of runes, for full benefit, you want reduced values on all of them where, you put points in?

Like 1 point:

0.1% as 4% slow 0.1% damage

10 points

5% as 20% slow 5% damage

Are you crazy? How that solves anything? Is that a build, where you 'get everything'? *facepalm*

Or you expect the 10 point version to be like all current runes combined like

20% as 80% slow 20% damage???

Isnt that just another way of saying - GIVE ME MORE DPS, AND PRETEND ITS A BUILD?
02/05/2013 07:22 AMPosted by Shuun
And im not venting anything here, im trying to lead you all out of your ignorance and lies.


Emotion is not the path out of ignorance. Please calm down and think more carefully about what you want to say instead of just letting your emotion do the talking. I would also like to believe that i am trying to lead you out of ignorance, but as you can see, i'm going about it in a very different way.

02/05/2013 07:22 AMPosted by Shuun
You could use +crit chance to energy twister, but nobody uses it.


Here is a thread with many top SNS Wizards debating the value and use of an item with +CC to ET, one of the best geared among them offers several million:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7709862012

That 'CM build' you are talking about is the DEFAULT and intended way how MOST of the builds should work, if you actually know and understand resource system of wizard.

CRTI+AS+APOC+MAXAPOC = DEFAULT. Not(!) CM specific.


This is a fair assessment of gameplay in MP0, or any content before MP-enabled Inferno.

In Starcraft II, for example, the zerg race is all about quickly aquiring resources and then using them to build an army and overwhelm your oponent. This is a fair assessment of gameplay in the singleplayer campaign, or the lower ladders.

However, if you want to get yourself into the GomTV International in Korea, or you want to build a character specifically for taking out the Uber bosses in MP10, it is a very, very different scenario, things get very technical very fast, and i can assure you that 60% CC + 3.01 APS + 20 APoC along with 500k EHP and 150k DPS is definitely not cheap. IAS breakpoints (and the relative complementary stats) have a huge effect on the power of ET in the endgame, and people are spending hundreds of $ with those breakpoints in mind. No other Wizard build benefits anywhere near as much from these exact, very specific gear requirements.

02/05/2013 07:22 AMPosted by Shuun
About arcane orbit having no cool-downs, you provide no argument as of why would a damage spell have no cool-down AND no cast time, and as far as i can see you are bluntly lying and playing dumb.


Argument: Offer viable alternative to spamming Frost Nova or Explosive Blast.
Reasoning: I'm sick of them and they're overpowered, give me some other options.

It really is that simple. If your point was that we would simply combine all three, then fair enough, that is a valid point and there would have to be some reason not do to that or yes, you would only be making the CM/WW build stronger, which i definitely do not want to see happen. However, you can't have diversity without options, which is why the idea was suggested in the first place.

So with that in mind, what would you suggest?

02/05/2013 08:11 AMPosted by TheEnzVolta
Furthermore, I think one of the problems with lack of skill progression is that you end up having to choose 1 aspect of a skill that might have been tight where you able to level it up all the way.


That would definitely give us some very interesting character building options, but i think the developers have all but given up on the idea of skill points by now... I can see a version of your idea working, however, if they would allow us to put two different runes of the same skill on our hotbar. However, i can also see that getting abused and being a bit of a balance nightmare!

Still, would be fun, and i think you bring up a good point that a lot of the current balance nightmare is because we are stuck with simple choices like +20% more damage vs make the snare you can cast without any cooldown and is overridden by permafrost last 3 seconds longer.

Actually i was using Miasma in my build recently, it was kinda fun... it did make Electrified and Mortar a bit tricky to deal with, though, especially in team games, which is where the +20% damage rune shines funnily enough. Sigh!
Shunn. there is no reason you should be getting this upset. this is just a discussion.

I just meant to say for example if you decided to put more points into slow time, then that skill would of course be more powerful and you would have to sacrifice elsewhere. I just think choosing one aspect of slow time rune over time warp is pretty tough at this point.

I think using the ATK speed buff rune by time slow, sounds pretty awesome...but i don't think I have ever used it because it just doesn't fit anywhere. maybe CM where you are already spamming anyways and your atk speed going up would be advantageous.

***I COULD BE WRONG I AM NOT ALL KNOWING***
02/05/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Dragonfly
Argument: Offer viable alternative to spamming Frost Nova or Explosive Blast.


First you said you did not 'hid' CM buffs in this, now you admit it and provide it as nothing special.
This 'discussion' is over. Ill wait for someone with opposing argument to comment, but not you, you are just senseless.

02/05/2013 06:14 PMPosted by TheEnzVolta
Shunn. there is no reason you should be getting this upset. this is just a discussion.

02/05/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Dragonfly
Emotion is not the path out of ignorance.


There is no reason you should try to denounce me. Its clearly obvious that's the only reason you are saying this. Very despicable and well known forum tactics. It only shows me that your intent is dark. Keep ayes on TOPIC.

02/05/2013 06:14 PMPosted by TheEnzVolta
I just meant to say for example if you decided to put more points into slow time, then that skill would of course be more powerful and you would have to sacrifice elsewhere. I just think choosing one aspect of slow time rune over time warp is pretty tough at this point.


The thing with this is that the 'sacrifice elsewhere' would be to obvious and common. Everyone will just pick skills that do most damage, provide most utility and put points there and 'sacrifice' stuff that they dont really need much besides some small mechanic. Its not really a build. Everyone will 'sacrifice' the same things and put points in the same things.
First you said you did not 'hid' CM buffs in this, now you admit it and provide it as nothing special.
This 'discussion' is over. Ill wait for someone with opposing argument to comment, but not you, you are just senseless.


Hm? Maybe you misunderstood. I said:

02/05/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Dragonfly
there would have to be some reason not do to that or yes, you would only be making the CM/WW build stronger, which i definitely do not want to see happen.


You haven't answered my question :P What suggestions would you make to a) make Arcane Orbit viable in some way and/or b) offer a viable alternative to Frost Nova and/or Explosive Blast in a CM/WW build?

There was actually a massive thread on the PTR Feedback forum about Arcane Orb ideas, for the record, incase you didn't read that yet:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7709281553?page=1

As for my own thoughts... What about if Arcane Orbit persisted around your character for a set amount of time, say 5 seconds, doing damage to anything that came into the radius... and maybe every time it explodes, enemies within 10 yards are sucked in, Vortex style. So combine that with Temporal Flux and you've got a pretty good method of keeping mobs on you, which could work as an alternative to Frost Nova. Or maybe the explosions knock enemies back instead, for use in a kiting build.

About arcane orbit having no cool-downs, you provide no argument as of why would a damage spell have no cool-down AND no cast time, and as far as i can see you are bluntly lying and playing dumb.


What are you even talking about? Do you even play a Wizard? Have you even tried the rune "Arcane Orbit"?

Instead of throwing accusations around, specifically at me trying to buff a build I no longer play, actually make logical arguments.

Arcane Orbit has a 30AP cost, so I see no problems with no cooldown and no cast time. Not to mention that recasting the skill before all 4 orbs explode decreases the damage/AP spent considerably. This is not the same as Explosive Blast, which in the hypothetical that it has no cooldown, you could trigger it multiple times in a row for extreme amounts of damage. If you attempt the same with Arcane Orbit, it just keeps refreshing, deleting all 4 orbs each time, until you stop wasting AP and let them explode. The more you attempt to argue with me on this rune, the more I'm convinced that you haven't even tried Arcane Orbit or even CM/WW builds. If you did, you would understand why Explosive Blast is still the obvious choice.

One stacks. One does not. Any more questions? If not, then I'm done with you. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

02/06/2013 03:48 AMPosted by Dragonfly
As for my own thoughts... What about if Arcane Orbit persisted around your character for a set amount of time, say 5 seconds, doing damage to anything that came into the radius... and maybe every time it explodes, enemies within 10 yards are sucked in, Vortex style. So combine that with Temporal Flux and you've got a pretty good method of keeping mobs on you, which could work as an alternative to Frost Nova. Or maybe the explosions knock enemies back instead, for use in a kiting build.


That's a very interesting idea. But if the orbs are to stay, there would have to be a timer mechanism so that it cannot trigger in like... let's say... 1 second of each other. So boom, 1 second timer, boom, 1 second timer, boom, etc (assuming there are monsters in the hitbox).

But I'm not so sure about the Vortex part, because it would severely limit the viable builds for this rune. If you're not a full-tank, vortex on yourself could be bad. I know that Arcane Orbit is a close range skill, but I'm sure some builds would use it as a last line of defense. I would much prefer the knockback.

So something like...

Arcane Orbit:
No cast time. 7 yard radius hitbox. Summons 4 orbs that circle around you for 8 seconds. When triggered, they explode but do not disappear, and deal 120% weapon damage as Arcane to enemies within 10 yards, with a 40% chance of knock back. When an orb explodes, there is a 1 second delay before another orb can explode.

Sound good? If so, I'll replace my current idea with this one and give u credit for it?
bump
You are playing dumb again.

1. Tell me the REASONING why would you decide to make arcane orbit have no cooldown and cast time? Reason! Where is it? Thin air? And the most important part that you have ignored for great amounts of posts - SHOW ME WHERE IS THE BUILD WHERE YOU THINK PEOPLE/YOU WILL USE IT.

In your imaginary fantasy would you want them to first buff arcane orb, without any reasoning behind damage increases whatsoever. Then - remove cast time of arcane orbit?? In next patch - complain that arcane orbs refresh on recast and argue that "Why they have no cast time, but disappear when you cast them! Blizz you useless!! Make them not disapear!" or "Omg blizz, CRY CRY, i accidentally pushed button 2 times and arcane orbits disappear, make dem not disappear ok ktxnx"

again

HERE READ THIS (You have avoided this question for whole thread so ill make it very visible for your blind aye) ====>>>
Tell me the REASONING why would you decide to make arcane orbit have no cooldown and cast time? Reason! Where is it? Thin air? And the most important part that you have ignored for great amounts of posts - SHOW ME WHERE IS THE BUILD WHERE YOU THINK PEOPLE/YOU WILL USE IT. <<<====
Excellent thread. I fully support this, in my opinion we are the second-worst class at the moment (the worst one being monk). Monks need a complete overhaul, we need a partial overhaul and need it bad.
What Blizzard does not seem to understand about Wizards is that people are looking for one of two things, control or efficient kiting. Currently, trying to kite with Wizard is not very effective. It is slow and other classes do this way better, especially WW barbs. Wizards are not mobile enough and does not nuke as hard as WD or DH, thus making kiting slow and painful. Sorry but running around in circles casting Blizzard or Arcane Orb is not fun. It is stupid and no amount of small buffs will change this.

CM builds allow for us to spam spells more which can be used for effective kiting on lower MP levels. The fact that D3 has a cooldown on damn near everything is a philosophical flaw in itself. This is not a gawddamn MMORPG for crying out loud. CM Freeze builds allow us CONTROL which allows us to better control the situations around us. Currently, with Blizzard's money grabbing decision of making this game online only with server side hit detection, kiting puts players in a lot of situations beyond their control. With CM Freeze builds, our destiny is more of ours to control so to speak.
I think there should be a way to use disintegration more often. They should reduce the arcane cost or at least give some new legendaries special ability to use disintegration. Maybe allow Disintegration to proc more critical hit, so it can be used more often.
01/31/2013 02:45 AMPosted by DomonKassui
disintegrate should be changed to fire damage so wizards have one more source of conflagration


Yes. Like this:
http://magiccards.info/query?q=Disintegrate&v=card&s=cname

See? RED. FIRE DAMAGE.


LOL , I was thinking the same thing!, Disintegrate, the favorite cards of the Fire Deck build ^o^
HERE READ THIS (You have avoided this question for whole thread so ill make it very visible for your blind aye) ====>>>
Tell me the REASONING why would you decide to make arcane orbit have no cooldown and cast time? Reason! Where is it? Thin air? And the most important part that you have ignored for great amounts of posts - SHOW ME WHERE IS THE BUILD WHERE YOU THINK PEOPLE/YOU WILL USE IT. <<<====


Once again, Shuun, i highly recommend you try communicating without the emotion. Seriously, it's a much better experience.

I would also recommend you have a second re-read of the thread discussion. I have in fact already answered your question twice:

02/04/2013 05:43 PMPosted by Dragonfly
As for what i would do with the new Arcane Orbit, now that arcane damage can snare at 60% due to the new Temporal Flux i'd probably try replacing Frost Nova in CM/WW and see what happens.


Argument: Offer viable alternative to spamming Frost Nova or Explosive Blast.
Reasoning: I'm sick of them and they're overpowered, give me some other options.


The resulting build would of course look something like either this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#VcYQXT!gbW!YZ...c

or this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#VhcQXT!gbU!YcZ..c

This is of course one very simple and unfinished idea of what to do with Arcane Orbit if it had no cast time that may or may not offer some variety in the standard CM/WW build.

I realise that such a change on its own may not make much sense and i can understand why you would be critical if the idea were offered without context. However, the context is there, and again i recommend you have a second read of the discussion before jumping to criticism.

Furthermore, the point of any suggestion in such a discussion is for the most part intended to inspire further discussion and ideas; there is little chance that one idea is going to be complete and without flaw straight away - hence the discussion.

Finally, criticism is only one part of constructive discussion; i ask you again: What change would you make to Arcane Orbit?

02/06/2013 08:59 AMPosted by Shuun
In your imaginary fantasy would you want them to first buff arcane orb, without any reasoning behind damage increases whatsoever.


Arcane Orb is already receiving a damage buff in 1.07. If you checked that PTR thread i linked:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7709281553?page=1

you would find 8 pages of people agreeing it isn't enough and offering various constructive ideas of how to make it better. Hence the discussion.

Arcane Orbit:
No cast time. 7 yard radius hitbox. Summons 4 orbs that circle around you for 8 seconds. When triggered, they explode but do not disappear, and deal 120% weapon damage as Arcane to enemies within 10 yards, with a 40% chance of knock back. When an orb explodes, there is a 1 second delay before another orb can explode.

Sound good? If so, I'll replace my current idea with this one and give u credit for it?


Me the credit? Lol. That was at least half your idea :P But yeah, i like it. Gives you a sort of half defense half damage mechanism for keeping things away from you in a dps/kite build. I can't see any major reason why it would be overpowered, especially considering you need to put yourself in danger to do the damage. At that point i'm not even sure you would need to remove the cast time, since you only need to refresh it every now and then anyway.

Apparently one of the main issues with Arcane Orbit at the moment is the orbs only explode when they hit something directly in front of you. Simply changing it to damage monsters in any direction from you would go a long way towards making the spell viable. Beyond that i feel like it needs to either persist over time, or be spammable in some way.

In fact, you could even add to the above idea - each time you recast the spell, all 4 orbs explode immediately and anything nearby is knocked back (and from there, the knockback/damage only occurs at most once per second when something is near you). Considering it has knockback, it definitely won't work well in a CM/WW build, so there shouldn't be too many issues with being able to spam the recast, especially considering the cost and coefficient. However, that might be stealing the thunder from Wave of Force...

Oh well, food for thought.

Me the credit? Lol. That was at least half your idea :P But yeah, i like it. Gives you a sort of half defense half damage mechanism for keeping things away from you in a dps/kite build. I can't see any major reason why it would be overpowered, especially considering you need to put yourself in danger to do the damage. At that point i'm not even sure you would need to remove the cast time, since you only need to refresh it every now and then anyway.

Apparently one of the main issues with Arcane Orbit at the moment is the orbs only explode when they hit something directly in front of you. Simply changing it to damage monsters in any direction from you would go a long way towards making the spell viable. Beyond that i feel like it needs to either persist over time, or be spammable in some way.

In fact, you could even add to the above idea - each time you recast the spell, all 4 orbs explode immediately and anything nearby is knocked back (and from there, the knockback/damage only occurs at most once per second when something is near you). Considering it has knockback, it definitely won't work well in a CM/WW build, so there shouldn't be too many issues with being able to spam the recast, especially considering the cost and coefficient. However, that might be stealing the thunder from Wave of Force...

Oh well, food for thought.


The original idea was yours XD I merely attempted to balance it out to account for the changing mechanisms.

And I don't really like the recasting effect you suggest. It would indeed overlap with Wave of Force, and it also creates some problems in terms of damage scaling (I scaled it to 120% per explosive because it cannot explode simultaneously [1 second gap])

As for the hitbox issues, that's something for Blizzard to work out.

@Shuun

Arcane Orbit is not usable. I'm suggesting changes to make it usable. The reason why Arcane Orbit is not usable is not because of the damage, but because of how hard it is to get it to trigger. It has no cooldown right now. If it has cast time, it breaks channels and causes a ton of issues with a ton of builds.

Anyway, just leave. You're not contributing to anything. I agree to disagree, k?

02/06/2013 11:56 AMPosted by Ricstar
I think there should be a way to use disintegration more often. They should reduce the arcane cost or at least give some new legendaries special ability to use disintegration. Maybe allow Disintegration to proc more critical hit, so it can be used more often.


There are items with -AP cost to Disintegrate, so I think that's fine. There just needs to be better defensive distraction skills to let you channel without getting run over.

01/31/2013 02:42 AMPosted by minkywhale
disintegrate should be changed to fire damage so wizards have one more source of conflagration


Missed this post early on page one =P I'll add this, thx =)
02/06/2013 04:31 PMPosted by necropuddi
There are items with -AP cost to Disintegrate, so I think that's fine. There just needs to be better defensive distraction skills to let you channel without getting run over.


Good point, and i have actually been seeing a few Disintegrate builds around, in particular the high MP "Chaos Nexus" setup. If you could just maintain the channel for a bit longer against the more difficult oponents, it would be a lot more viable.


01/31/2013 02:42 AMPosted by minkywhale
disintegrate should be changed to fire damage so wizards have one more source of conflagration

Missed this post early on page one =P I'll add this, thx =)


Maybe as a rune effect (or the other way around) incase someone wants to use it with Temporal Flux :P

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