Why barbs are OP (after leveling all classes to 60)

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And to keep a ranged distance(and thus take less damage), you have to kite.

And that's why the ranged characters have kiting skills or other skills to keep monsters away from them:
DH: vault, caltrops...
Wiz: freeze, teleport...
WD: pets, horrify, spirit walk...

I haven't seen any skills like that on the barb.

02/07/2013 12:59 AMPosted by Atomize
However, kiting makes your dps !@#$ since you can't move and kill very well at the same time.

There are skills where you can. Strafe is a classic, maybe. Plus, you can leave caltrops or spike traps on ground, and while you kite away, demons take damage, same with sentry. There are many skills to slow monsters down, or completely disable them (Wiz and WD have a good variety of them).

02/07/2013 12:59 AMPosted by Atomize
Therefore, shouldn't ranged be able to achieve higher dps of offset this?

And they do!

First barb with highest DPS in world appears on rank 68 (in softcore, and 62 in hardcore), after any other class.

As it is, barbs are the ones with by far the most dps... which makes zero sense.

Obviously, they are not. The whole opposite: the are the ones with the least dps.
And, as I mentioned before, they are not even the best survivers, actually the worst (in hardcore); WD is:
However, a barb can tank well. That is what they were made for.

02/07/2013 12:59 AMPosted by Atomize
0 need to kite, cc immunity, highest dps, extra availability of lifesteal(belts, passives, abilities, and viable dual wielding/2h)and bonus defences.

Well, it's a barb, right? Why should a barb kite? Maybe only if he is not prepared for the mp level he chose. CC immunity is necessary since he has to tank. He can not kite away and do damage from distance because he is not ranged. It makes sense to me.

That he can have "eternal" cc immunity, however, requires some really good gear and skills. It's not that easy to keep WoTB up all time (particularly after the nerf). Plus it doesn't make immune against arcane beams etc. And also monks, who are melees, have certain skills to get immune or can heal.

As for lifesteal, DHs can get even more LS:
3% on weapons (6% if dual wielding) + 25% on Gloom-Blood Moon + 3% Nether Tentacles = 33%
Whereas Barbs:
3% on weapons (6% if dual wielding) + 3% belt + 3% Bloodthirst + 9% Rend-Bloodlust = 21%
(Dread Spear with 60% LS isn't really used. Maybe because of the cooldown and low damage in short time. Maybe someone can explain better.)
Here, procrate must be considered (I don't have the insight on that, sorry), and the DPS, which LS is based on. Naturally, DHs have much higher DPS than barbs so that DH benefit much more from LS than barbs do.
They really just need to nerf WotB so barbs cant keep it up for an entire act or halve all the stat bonuses from it. No other class has any skill that even comes close to it. Also cut the armor bonus barbs get from STR.

It is extremely unfair that a 50 mil geared barb can farm faster then my 1 bil geared demon hunter

hey there! You know who can keep up WotB all the time? People that have spend several 100 milions of gold on gear. Why should they not get a reward for that? Now I dont say my gear rocks, but it isnt THAT bad either. And even I cant keep it up all the time. Its A LOT more difficult compared to the situation before the nerf. Not to mention its not like Barbs have really some alternative ... which other skills allows them to get around CC effects? leap? Furious Charge? There is no other skill for example which allows you to get out from frozen, but both DHs and Whitchdoctors have at least one skill as far as I know. And they dont have some 2 min cooldown time. If you realyl want to keep up WotB all the time then you have to sacrifice some DPS for it. So its not just ALL gree here.

But I do agree that playing a barbarian is A LOT easier compared to other classes. Well maybe a well geared CM wiz is easier, no clue.
Well guys I don't know much about the other classes, but I can say what I've experienced comparing a barbarian with a monk. As you can see I have no barbarian, what I can say comes from the fact that my brother mains a barbarian. His Battle Tag is BorisButcher#2354 and we both play on the EU server FYI.

Now, the thing is we've always played D3 together. I can even say that our incomes so far were around the same, around 50-60M as of now. But, as you can see, his DPS is 137k unbuffed. He can easily farm MP7 and even kill Elites on MP10, albeit not fast enough.

My monk with the same amount of money spent had around 80k DPS unbuffed, with a lot less armor than his barbarian, and half his Life Steal. Since we always play together, there was a point where I had to use the RMAH, since I couldn't keep up with him. He could gear his barbarian for a lot less to be a lot stronger than my monk. That is because on higher MPs the most effective way of healing is Life Steal. You can point at some people who has 3AS and 3000LoH, but that kind of gear is not always so easy to achieve. Some people even suggest that monks have those damn heals. Now I tell you: in a game where your lifebar goes up and down circa 10k a second (even more on top MPs) what do you think a mere 7k every 15s means? It's a burst heal, not any kind of sustained heal that could keep you alive for long. With Serenity and Blinding Flash, you can keep it up with only a few seconds of taking damage (except for area effects, since BF won't protect you then) but in contrast to a WW barbarian holding right click and turning away from the screen, you have to time those skills well, or you miserably die.

But let's get back to the topic. To keep myself alive, I need Life Steal on weapons. Given the current stance of the game, I also need Crit Damage and Socket on the weapon. Given these circumstances, let's find a Skorn (since I'm DW it's even harder to find a weapon, but since his barbarian uses a Skorn, let's just stick to it) with these attributes that also gives dex! That kind of weapon is extremely expensive. Then he just bought a mediocre belt with Life Steal for 1-2M (not sure of the price, but it wasn't too expensive) and a high damage Skorn without Life Steal for a few millions. With these kind of bonuses, Barbarians can easily go for damage while sustaining their LS, and actually having more healing power than a monk. With the infinite WotB CC immunity, this leaves them tanky, but dealing tons of damage at the same time.

At the same time, monks are forced into extremes right now. You either go extremely tanky, which will leave you with maybe 1/2 of the damage of a normal monk, but maybe you will take half the damage.
Or, you go mainstream, getting mediocre defences, life steal and as high DPS as possible. This results in a seriously unstable build, given that you don't have 400k DPS - and as mentioned in this thread, that is a rare sight to see. Right now I'm experimenting with a high damage Az'Turasq and a 10% CC shield to see if I can survive better and still dish out a satisfying amount of damage.

I've tried all sort of things to get up to my brother's Barbarian's level. I've currently spent around 3x the money he has on his barbarian. My paper doll damage is 92k + 24% hidden on my WKL, and I feel that even though my damage is fitting right now, he can outsustain me easily in large groups. As a barbarian, he has obviously higher armor, and my dodge, that should compensate, is seriously useless. My only real protection is OWE on higher MPs, since the elites, that pose the real threat, are literally immune to dodge, thanks to them always having a modifier that bypasses it, be it desecrator, molten, fire chains, arcane sentry, plague, reflect damage... These do not bypass armor and all resist, but the certainly bypass dodge.

I've also tried playing a Demon Hunter. Given a good weapon and armor, a DH is quite strong, but too fragile for higher MP levels. Your vault and Shadow Power is kinda useless when an Elite with Mortar or Vortex instakills you, and you lack any kind of bonus sustain like OWE that would protect you, so you have both low armor and resists, not to talk about the base 30% mitigation monks and barbarians have. With enough AS, you can keep up your life thanks to your extremely high LS and damage, but DHs are powerless against monsters with burst damage.

What I can say is that monks are a lot weaker for solo than barbarians, but maybe towards the damage cap the difference becomes less visible. In a party, I think the difference is slowly reversed. In a party of 4, the Overawe aura practically increases the damage of the monk's presence to around 1.5 of the entire team's damage, and with that even sword and board monks are highly viable. But people prefer farming solo, and let's face the fact: barbarians are superior in terms of solo play.

PS: My brother can keep up his WotB. You only need high CC, that is all.

Barb is OP coz it's cheaper to build and we want other classes to be OP as much as them since it's fun to overkill.

cheaper to build? Maybe

Cheaper to gear up? Not really

Search for this on gloves:

CC 9.5
CD 35%
IAS 8%

Now the same item with 100 inteligence or Dex and the other one with 100 in str. Str on equipment is somehow a lot more expensive, a lot of people play barbs either for farming or fun. This means barb equipment on high end gear is VERY expensive compared to other equipment. A skorn with LL and lots of dps and str. can be a lot more worth then inteligence or dex. Guess why.
thanks for this thread, im rolling a barb right now. personally ive become a tad annoyed at my wizard so im taking a break and so far barbs are hell of a lot more fun, more survivability in tight situations. im only lvl 6 or something but yea, made some good points on how the gear is cheap etc
Here the (current) price list of similar gear OP has (cheapest in buyout):
helm (IK Triumph, 175str, 6cc): 1.2m
shoulder (195str, 55vit, 72ar, 9%life): 8m
amulet (45ad, 80str, 200vit, 70ar): 18m
chest (100str, 95vit, 60ar, 3sockets): 5.5m
glove (IK Iron, 95str, 95vit): 900k
bracer (70str, 120vit, 70ar, 4cc): 1m
belt (IK Tribal Binding, 170str, 70ar): 100k
pants (90str0, 70vit, 70ar, 2 sockets): 250k
boots (Fire Walkers, 200str, 60vit): 450k
ring1 (25str, 60ar, 3cc, 30cd): 2m
ring2 (50str, 5cc, 25cd): 200k
weapon (Skorn, 300str, 130cd, 1200dps): 200k

All together, his barb would cost like 37.8m (gems not considered).
Well, he might have found some gear in game and got good deals in AH (bidding)... But just wanted to do this to see how much his gear would cost in AH.
yeah but everyone knows you can gear up a barb with just 900 000 gold to face roll MP10 ...

maybe people do the mistake to play MP10 on normal and not Inferno?
02/07/2013 01:34 AMPosted by Birddance
You mix real damage with synthetic dps, that you see at character sheet. We have very limited ways to calculate real dps. Single-target dps: kill mp2 azmodan, divide hp by time. Multi-target dps: do Alkhaizer run. We dont know the sum mobs hp, so we use time to compare real dps: less time you need - more real dps you have.

DPS is the most recognized stat for damage comparison. As you said, there are limited ways to calculate real DPS. I don't know one, and I can't vouch for your formula. So you refute the most recognized stat for a formula that does not provide sufficient real world comparison. Now, that's just QQ...
02/04/2013 10:02 PMPosted by bearr
and it cost so little gold to gear.

I must disagree with you. Just take a look as Vile Ward,Echoing Fury,Witching Hour, etc.
The gears for Barb should be more expensive than other classes. :)
Here the (current) price list of similar gear OP has (cheapest in buyout):
helm (IK Triumph, 175str, 6cc): 1.2m
shoulder (195str, 55vit, 72ar, 9%life): 8m
amulet (45ad, 80str, 200vit, 70ar): 18m
chest (100str, 95vit, 60ar, 3sockets): 5.5m
glove (IK Iron, 95str, 95vit): 900k
bracer (70str, 120vit, 70ar, 4cc): 1m
belt (IK Tribal Binding, 170str, 70ar): 100k
pants (90str0, 70vit, 70ar, 2 sockets): 250k
boots (Fire Walkers, 200str, 60vit): 450k
ring1 (25str, 60ar, 3cc, 30cd): 2m
ring2 (50str, 5cc, 25cd): 200k
weapon (Skorn, 300str, 130cd, 1200dps): 200k

All together, his barb would cost like 37.8m (gems not considered).
Well, he might have found some gear in game and got good deals in AH (bidding)... But just wanted to do this to see how much his gear would cost in AH.

Wow, thanks for that! But I would say that my shoulders cost me less than a million. I bought them when I was leveling, and never changed them (about level 50 I would say). They were really cheap. For the amulet, I'm pretty sure I found it, cause I never paid that much for it for sure.

I couldn't say for sure how much I paid, but I really didn't have money. I have the feeling the most expensive thing was a ring, the gems and the helmet maybe, which are pretty cheap. I'd say less than 10mil, but it's possible it goes up to 15mil, I don't know.
Why are barb gear expensive?
Because of high demand
Because many play barb
Because barbs are OP

That's why.
If Barbs are OP, play Barb.
If you came too far of a way with other char, stick with it or quit.
I am sure not all non-Barb players think Barbs are OP.
Am I wrong?

I do agree that regular belts should come with life leech - That's for sure.
Barbs are not op. The rest of the classes need to be brought up to his level..Actually after playing pvp Hes REALLY not op..
@ Forelle The barb has kiting skills just like everyone else..
I'm slowly switching from barb to monk as my monk runs faster with no timer involved. :D
Barbs are OP because:
- They have a kiting build that is able to maintain WotB
- They are the ONLY class that has lifesteal on belts
- They are the ONLY class that does not have another class to share gear with
- They have a build that scales the best through different MP levels

For any other class to get to the same level as a barb, they have to spend SUBSTANTIALLY more gold.
And just as i said there NOT op everyone else needs brought up to the barbs level..Besides the barb fails in lots of areas,,lower dps, pvp. The lifesteal belt is needed they have to be up close to the enemy.Just about every othe class kites better so thats not even valid..sharing gear is a plus not a minus.And i agree everyone else has to spend more but everyone else does more dps..Besides the barb is most popular so gears bound to be cheap..
02/07/2013 09:51 AMPosted by DarkAngel
And just as i said there NOT op everyone else needs brought up to the barbs level..

Barbs are OP. There is no denying that unless you are a barb in denial. When a class is clearly head and shoulders above any other class and in so many facets, they are OP. The fact that all the other classes need to be BUFFED TO THE SAME level is the very definition of being overpowered.

Barbarians crying for other players to not call for their nerfing needs to understand this one very important thing: the current dev team cannot buff classes for !@#$. Their clueless idea of buffing is to buff a useless skill to the point where it is still... wait for it... USELESS! Given that they do not how to buff for crap, I would rather see barbarians nerfed hard than to continue receiving theses useless "buffs."
I updated my first post if you guys want to check that out. I changed my point of view a bit!

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