Is it possible to play CM with just 10 APoC

Wizard
01/31/2013 02:06 PMPosted by Succubus
pick up astral presence and


A little off topic but Astral Presence is horrible for CM. With 20 APoC at 2.5 or 2.73 APS you should be gaining some 60-80 AP per second from APoC. 2 extra AP/s from astral pres is nothing compared to those. You're much better off with Evocation, cold blooded, or blur even in terms of better passives for CMWW wizards.
01/31/2013 01:14 PMPosted by Boozor
Use the Shag build, runs off 10+ APOC I believe.


You can do any of the prodigy builds with zero APoC (they get WAY better with at least 10APoC or more, but you can do efficient MP1 and decent higher MP farming with any reasonable combo)

This is the one I use, and it's not that bad with 10 apoc, but I run 19... it doesn't break at lower APoC levels like SNS does, but it does get slower.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#PQbXhf!cTg!aZcccZ

I did this one as a zero apoc SNS just to see how close to stunlock I could get, and was able to make it through MP7 seigebreaker only getting picked up once:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#VTbXhY!cbg!YccccZ
3 skills that use attack turns is pretty tough to pay for, I was at 3.0+ aps and still felt too slow.
Tekk,

How did you calculate your AP/sec? I am at 2.51 and 46%, with 20 APOC, and I find that I get the out of arcane power message very infrequently, but get the skill not ready message a lot. I'm just curious about the math behind the bare minimum APOC needed.
Sure, it's a pretty simple formula: WW AP regeneration / second = (WW Ticks / Second) * WW Proc-Coefficient * Critical Chance * APoC. So we get for you: WW AP regeneration = 5.5*.125*0.46*20 = 6.325. I was talking with Loroesse the other day and we kinda thought 6.5 is kinda a good minimum; however, I think you'd find more of a consensus that 7.5 is the ideal. Boosting your CC up to 50% would get you 6.875, which is a bit better than the equivalent of someone running 2.73aps/50%cc/18APoC. Ultimately, I think the best way to test for yourself is to try a Ghom Test or something similar. The goal would be to see how you tank a single enemy at full windup. My personal definition of functional is one that you don't get the "out of arcane power" message at full windup. I hope that helps! :)
Perhaps but it's irresponsible IMO to advise conditions that

"Is it easy not at all"
"I don't much care about single targets for this build and avoid them for the most part. This isn't an ubers build and would be insanely sily to try and run this type of build for that purpose."

especially when 2 sources of apoc are easy to get. not billions required u can get a chants apoc sources pretty cheap and storm crows even cheaper.

I get called an elitist like ur doing sometimes. meh whateves I only want ppl to enjoy themselves so my advices are with that in mind and u wont do so with 10 apoc period.

simple
<2.73 needs 3 sources
>2.73 can get by with 2


If you get called an elitist and it happens on more than one occasion you should probably reconsider how you are speaking to people.

Other than that, I'm not promoting or giving "advice" for anything, I'm simply answering a question that another person is not familiar with... Can you run CM build with 10Apoc = Yes. Are there reason why you may not want to run it, possibly. Too many variable to answer questions that arent asked or bring up things that have nothing to do with the point at hand.

Answers like yours stray away from the whole point of the OP's question in the first place. Gives the, "I know more than you" tone and leads only to battles between people trying to show others they know more than another forum user. That is a complete waste of time.

Again, with your other comment, you remove the premise and use it out of context. When I mention billions for gear I'm talking about fine tuning overall for tip top efficiency, not simply on an extra piece that has apoc on it. Again, why must people do that. Its a pointless argumentative tactic.

01/31/2013 02:26 PMPosted by Loroese
pick up astral presence and


A little off topic but Astral Presence is horrible for CM. With 20 APoC at 2.5 or 2.73 APS you should be gaining some 60-80 AP per second from APoC. 2 extra AP/s from astral pres is nothing compared to those. You're much better off with Evocation, cold blooded, or blur even in terms of better passives for CMWW wizards.


Yes it is off topic, but to continue that line of thinking. Have you ever casted 3 nados at a distance and then try to TP into a mob to then freeze them so you can start your rotations/cycles. that extra 20 arcane power actually does wonders before you start to get into your rotations/cycles. Beyond that, with higher max arcane when you run builds like meteor it can be quite a help in many situations but its mainly used for instances before your cycles are giving you more arcane power than you need.
@Succubus: The problem is that you're saying it's functional based on skipping enemies. This is not going to make the cut of what defines functional for most people. Hell you don't even need to chase attack speed if you're only fighting large mobs, so even noobs with a decent amount of damage mitigation can run a ridiculous cheap CM/WW wizard.

I'm really sympathetic to your situation, as I have a Meteor-variant of SNS that functions pretty similar in the way you describe (ie I can do anything but singles). And yes Astral Presence is a god-send when you're working in the regime that you're at, but I'd be reluctant to recommend that build to anyone unless they are willing to have a hard time on singles. Personally, I'd much rather see you run Storm Crow and dip below the 2.73aps breakpoint. The 2.51aps breakpoint is actually quite functional for farming, especially if you add in runes like Cold Snap.
Dude u said once could "easily farm and play with 10apoc," it wasnt until ppl started questioning that did you come clean that you wernt even doing games content let alone easy. I may have strayed which I didnt i told him what he needed for 10 apoc to work which was question but you mislead imo.
@Succubus: The problem is that you're saying it's functional based on skipping enemies. This is not going to make the cut of what defines functional for most people. Hell you don't even need to chase attack speed if you're only fighting large mobs, so even noobs with a decent amount of damage mitigation can run a ridiculous cheap CM/WW wizard.

I'm really sympathetic to your situation, as I have a Meteor-variant of SNS that functions pretty similar in the way you describe (ie I can do anything but singles). And yes Astral Presence is a god-send when you're working in the regime that you're at, but I'd be reluctant to recommend that build to anyone unless they are willing to have a hard time on singles. Personally, I'd much rather see you run Storm Crow and dip below the 2.73aps breakpoint. The 2.51aps breakpoint is actually quite functional for farming, especially if you add in runes like Cold Snap.


I don't skip any packs at all, I do entire clears at the places that I mention previously... but boss fights, (Ghom, Siege, Cydea, Azmo... or Ubers) I run a completely different build, the 10apoc build just happened to be the last one I was running a week ago when I logged in and made a run or two last, hence the casual response to this post.

Maybe I was unclear with that statement I made, however my point is single targets for me only happen with few elite golds in which their adds die... of course that is going to happen, but for the most part, it is very few and far between on Act 3 or any Act for that matter you are going to fight singles unless you are fighting the bosses and I stopped running Boss loots patch 3. Simply not worth the time with the HP they have and the crap loots they drop, that is my meaning by skipping "single" targets, hopefully it makes more sense. All that on top of me opting to mp6-8 when monsters have much less health and you can melt them much quicker than running MP10 and things like shielding and reflects at the current state of the game making fights much different. Other than that, I sold all the gold I had a little over a month ago and the two pieces that were worth anything of real money simply because I don't play anymore and I only kept enough to run what I'm running now switching to cheap andy's & storm crow and 2.66 BP on occasion for differing builds... that is the reason I'm starved of APOC and CC.
I took some gear off my barb and some in my stash and put together a weird concoction of a CM wiz last night. I was confused as to why my stunlocking wasn't very clean despite having over 50% CC and 2.73 APS. This morning one of my friends looked at my profile and pointed out that I had only 9 APOC. I didn't realize that chant's force doesn't roll with it by default...shows how much I know...

Still had no trouble with any elite pack on MP7, even managed to kill a treasure goblin, <60K DPS, no shards, no shock. Obviously wouldn't recommend anyone to run like this...I just did it as a novelty.
01/31/2013 03:29 PMPosted by Aimless
Dude u said once could "easily farm and play with 10apoc," it wasnt until ppl started questioning that did you come clean that you wernt even doing games content let alone easy. I may have strayed which I didnt i told him what he needed for 10 apoc to work which was question but you mislead imo.


Come clean? Come clean with what? You should probably re-read my first post on this topic. I didn't say anything about running 10APOC and higher MPs is easy. Essentially when you start off with crap gear its hard, the better gear you get the easier the content gets. On the flipside once a person gets good gear, (speaking specifically toward CM wizziez) if you were to go from 60%cc at a 2.73 BP with 600k EHP and play a character with half the EHP and 2.5 BP even with the same percentage CC it would be harder, much harder until you get used to it again, so that part is relative and not something easily gauged. It all depends on the specific individuals play skills... its counterproductive to get into semantics, especially when one only does it to make themselves look better in which you tend to do much of.

Don't get me wrong, you have helped quite a bit of wizzies here on the forums, I have seen your name quite a bit on the forums the few times I choose to browse. But honestly, bringing up straw-man arguments and quoting people completely out of context for the benefit of making yourself look good does nothing but create an argument and sidetrack topics, to people that actually pay attention to what is being said and the OP my apologies for turning your thread into something you didn't intend for it to be.
I remember someone said he was using only 10 APOC, then the forum laughed at him and drove him away.
Every once in a while you'd find a treasure thread like this where ignorant people dropping by and trying to give their expert opinion.

A good read!
@Succubus: We should stop beating this dead horse alone. I'm glad it's "working" for you, but understand that you're probably not gonna much agreement from many players on this forum that 10APoC is close to sufficient. Though I'm VERY surprised you consider the 2.73aps with 10APoC superior to 2.51aps with 20APoC.
01/31/2013 04:32 PMPosted by TekkZero
@Succubus: We should stop beating this dead horse alone. I'm glad it's "working" for you, but understand that you're probably not gonna much agreement from many players on this forum that 10APoC is close to sufficient. Though I'm VERY surprised you consider the 2.73aps with 10APoC superior to 2.51aps with 20APoC.


When did I say one is superior to another? I don't recall that what-so-ever.

I'm not looking for a agreement, the bottom line is the question = Can you run 10apoc answer = yes. If you disagree, it only means you are adding your own epithets and conditions that the OP didn't mention any of or holding onto an idea of one cookie cutter CM build. Only thing I have stated in this thread is that it is possible to run with 10APoC for CM wiz.

I ran 2.66 BP with 20 APoC more of the time and consider it to be much better than a higher BP and lower APoC for higher mp levels, the only time it becomes a worthless trade off to even talk about or try to calculate is in lower MPs simply because the packs evaporate so quickly. It doesn't matter much at lower MPs because you are killing anything before you have to start avoiding beams/reflects/moltens or double crowd control packs or worrying about your EHP, your shell is still holding and your life recovery is good enough to tank.

In the end I'm in agreement with your thoughts I just don't know where you are coming up with things I didn't say and and I also don't know why people aren't willing to concede that you can run CM with 10APoC, can you run every CM build with only 10APoC obviously not... but that isn't what the question was in the first place.
I tried with 10 apoc, its quite playable but not in the sense of a true CM/WW build. I had insane WW crit with a 8ET Sloraks and 5ET Skull Grasp and also used Deep Freeze.

Your wind up time is a little longer(1-3secs) but once you start you don't really notice the difference until you get stuck on that 1 gold elite after all the adds are dead. Its very hard to freeze a solo target and then regain your APOC as he moves out of your WW.

So YES its possible, but not really viable or worth it.


This is pretty much exactly what I had in mind, since I already had the Slorak's. I was curious whether it would be worth it to try and save up for a Skull Grasp after getting my APoC force (75m saved up so far). I have the CC Mempo and was planning on running a chants set with APoC Force and Mempo and swapping the Inna's for BT, netting a gain in overall ehp and dps. Then the game dropped a crazy Slorak's so now I have the dilemma, stick with the original plan, or try to use the much higher dps wand the game gave me. In the latter case, it seems I'd be pretty much stuck with the Inna's unless the game drops an equally godly Lacuni.

Thanks to everybody for the input. I'm going to stick with 20 APoC, since I'd like to keep the utility of the set for ubers and keyruns as well as for high MP farming.
@Succubus: I did implicitly assume by you previously stating that you "comfortably farm mp8 without any problems 2.78 aps." Unless you're somehow being irrational and I have the sense you're a pretty bright guy, the 2.51aps/20APoC setup is vastly superior and you shouldn't be farming with the 2.78aps/10APoc setup. And yeah you can run CM/WW wizard with lower APoC and with lower attack speed, but most of would see that as a setup for beginners or those that can't yet afford the better stuff. And that's moreover not really what we call playable.
No Succubus, stop. And OP yah I been there

Trust me bro I've got that excitement and been exactly in your line of questioning as mentioned by others here, it's simply a bad idea. It's workable but what happens is you miss way way too many EB casts, like a retarded amount. That's the biggest thing, not really twisters much.

I rolled with 2.85 aps (2.73 breakpoint) and 82% ET CC (61% CC + 21% ET CC) , for some reason the CM goes absolutely spaztastic and you start refreshing waaaay more than apoc and even loh gains and waste a ton of EB casts, this is even the cast for single targets it simply refreshes too fast for your apoc to catch up.

As suggested in another thread, something is up with CM refreshes regarding WW..and when you put it to an obscene level using all ET CC gearing it goes absolutely crazy, no way for the arcane to catch up on single targetting. Thus you become ineffective while trying to become more effective.

Now provided I did not hit 3 aps with 82% ET CC (I however did with 74% ET CC), but I am actually thinking it would just be worse of a gap. Going to have to abandon that idea, if you still want to go heavy ET CC to reach those 70-80% ET CC numbers you'll have to settle for a storm crow. They're not bad, just lose a lot of EHP is all really the DPS pretty much equals itself out and besides mempo to get max or near max CC is simply too expensive.

It's not worth it. Just get 15+ apoc if going heavy ET CC gearing or super high base CC (16+ unless you go double nat's which is kinda meh). You save from having to get a 9-10 apoc chants source at least, not bad.

My 2 cents from my experimenting.
01/31/2013 03:59 PMPosted by Succubus
Essentially when you start off with crap gear its hard, the better gear you get the easier the content gets.


Starting with 18+ APOC is straightforward--cheap wiz hat and cheap Will does it.

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