Responses To "TheTias" and "Drothvadar"

General Discussion
Sorry guys, I wanted to write several responses to some of the things that both of you said on my D3 Salvation thread but it hit the post cap before I could get the chance. I don't want to get super detailed here but there were a couple things in particular that I wanted to respond to.

TheTias:
I don't see how paragon levels even fit into that particular statement (which is the first time I've disagreed with you so far here). All Paragon Levels are is a grind, pure and simple. You gain the ability to trade some MF on gear for more defensive or damage affixes, but aside from that, it's just a simple grind (the stat bonuses each level are negligible).

Also accomplishing a gear value of over 1 billion is both subjective and unobtainable for a great majority of players, and as such you sort of lumped those people into the "sorry, your view on the game isn't worth anything" category. I'm not saying that's necessarily your intent, but that's how it comes off. :/

I have only PL 35, coming on 36 and I wholeheartedly understand your reasoning. You don't necessarily have to be among the 1% to understand that if you have a firm grasp of how concepts such as those you've used for examples can work.

Don't fall into the same trap other players do by saying that just because you don't have high paragon HC characters that your opinions or experience are worthless. ^_^


I was afraid that statement might come off the wrong way. I thought that I worded it in such a way that made sense and wouldn't offend people but I suppose I can see why it wasn't perceived the way I intended.

First of all, I never said that if you haven't done those things then you don't belong in the discussion. I said that if you disagree with me, then perhaps you should attempt those things and you might be surprised with where your opinion stands after having completed them.

I included Paragon100 in the mix for the exact reason that you stated; it is a GRIND. Not only is it a grind, but it is THE grind. It doesn't take skill, it just takes a complete and utter subjugation of your person to the game in order to complete it in any reasonable amount of time. It requires long and consecutive hours of immersion into a very particular aspect of the game. It requires you to experience and achieve immense "efficiency" in order to succeed in a reasonable amount of time. I'm not saying that these things can't be accomplished elsewhere, I'm just saying that lvl'ing Paragon is a practice that will almost assuredly teach someone a very important lesson about the game. Again, it's not NECESSARY, it's just a great starting point.

There are lots of other grinds in D3, but none of them had the same effect on me as leveling to 100. You really come to understand just how inefficient and lackluster the majority of possible builds are in comparison to what you're accomplishing with your paragon lvl'ing build and methods. Paragon leveling can teach you a great deal about item drops, item quality, motivational factors and the results that can come from ignoring or applying them in many aspects of the game, build efficiency, item efficiency, etc. The list really goes on and on. When you spend that much time playing at, literally, maximum efficiency, you can learn a lot. So please remember that I was not trying to insinuate that players who had not completed those things don't belong here. I was simply saying that if you disagree with the things I've said, then perhaps you should subject yourself to those goals and see where you stand afterwards.

As for the 1 billion gold in gear thing, I absolutely stand by that. Again, I am not saying that players HAVE to have done ANY of these things in order to fully understand the reasoning behind my opinions, I'm simply saying that if they have NOT done these things and they disagree with me then perhaps they should attempt the things in my list then come back to me :) I don't think I'm better than anyone for having done these things, I just think that having done them has taught me certain things about the game that I may not have been as learned on had I not accomplished them.

I stand by the 1 billion gold thing because I believe that anyone who puts in enough time, educates themselves on the ins and outs of efficiency in both builds and items, attempts a wide variety of farming methods to discover the best ones, learns how to take advantage of the AH, gains a vast understanding of the value of items and applies all of these things to the game, will achieve 1 billion gold by the 500 hour mark. Of course there are going to be people who achieve less and people who achieve more. This opinion is more on what I see as a "likely average" than anything else. I am also applying it more so to the game as it has existed in the past few months as opposed to the earlier versions of the game.

Obtaining 1 billion gold is not an overly difficult effort if you do everything "right". It takes a TREMENDOUS amount of luck, an ENORMOUS understanding of the game or a combination of both in order to achieve this amount of gold. After the number of hours I've spent playing, I think that knowledge has a lot more to do with it than luck. No matter how unlucky you are, you are going to make a lot of gold very quickly if you know how and you put in the necessary hours. I know many people who achieved 1 billion gold in less than 100 hours and I know at least a few who took a great deal longer to succeed.

Drothvadar:
Not to mention it's a straw man argument...

Someone could have something completely valid to say, yet they're being completely dismissed because suddenly since they don't meet some stupid criteria, everything they say is worthless.

You know Gosu, there are those of us who are more than capable of being Paragon level 100 by now but simply have absolutely no motivation to do so.

Just because someone can grind their face against a cheese grater with great determination doesn't automatically make them more deserving than others. =(


Guys I'm not saying that these people don't have valid things to say. I responded to every single valid point I could find given the amount of time I had to do so. I would never dismiss someone's opinion because that hadn't met that list that I laid out. I'm really quite surprised by the level of misunderstanding that is going on here. Perhaps I wasn't entirely clear but I definitely didn't think it could be perceived in the exact opposite way I meant it to be. I'm so not an elitist in any sense of the word...lol

I don't think that someone who can, "grind their face against a cheese grater with great determination" makes them better than someone who doesn't. I think that a person who DOES this is likely to learn something important from doing it, not that they CANNOT learn that thing without doing it.
Oh hey another thread with Gosu.

Crazy awesome.

Anyways a quick tip is that you can actually quote the players and then copy paste them to your new thread making it a little nicer looking.

I'll just respond to your second response as you seem to enjoy writing long posts (which I sometimes do as well).

Looking over Drothvader's post and your response I would say that I agree that their should be more of an incentive to leveling up paragon rather then just having a better character portrait and tiny additional stat jumps.

I would almost welcome Blizzard to add challenge dungeons in which you have to be a certain mp level to gain access to. Once you hit that paragon level you unlock that challenge dungeon completely so you can switch to a lower plvl character. I say almost because then people might have bad responses when it comes to feeling left out because they just joined D3 and aren't high enough in their paragon levels to join a friend who is like paragon level 90 or something.

Anyways continuing on with my idea:

Challenge dungeons: Could start by having the lower plvl'ed ones in act 1 and then go from their (act 4 being the high paragon level challenge dungeons so that players frequent that act more). And as for the challenge dungeons themselves Blizzard could be super creative and also support the communities feedback when it comes to survival/horde mode or an "endless dungeon" in which these could be the kinds of challenges players would face in the dungeons.

Entering the Dungeons: I would say that specific items would need to be dropping in the rest of the game otherwise player's would just farm these challenge dungeons and the rest of the game would become useless.

Rewards: Two options. One would be adding exclusive items as a reward which would be neat but would exclude the players who can't access the dungeon which would create a feeling of resentment on the forums (which we already have plenty). Option number two would be simply having a completion chest which would yield really good rewards (like have a higher chance to drop legendary items -- RNG can still destroy this, or crafting materials, or tons of gold, or improved rare items with better quality). Monster Power would also effect the reward.

Difficulty: I think the lower paragon dungeons would have to be still challenging when it comes to the design but when it comes to increasing the monster power it wouldn't get as hard as say an act 4 challenge dungeon. Say for a plvl 10 dungeon in act 1, you might be farming mp 1 but the dungeon's mp base would be something like +2 mp. So while being on mp 1 you'd be in an mp 3 dungeon (mp 0 it would be mp 2 -- mp 10 it would be mp 12). Just an idea to make these kind's of dungeons a lot harder. Perhaps having mp levels beyond 10 would increase the quantity of monster rather then adding boring health.

Failure to Complete Dungeon: I think their should be a limit of 3 entries into the dungeon so if you fail three times the dungeon is lost forever until you find the same item in order to access it. This way it won't be an unlimited thing and people would need to take it seriously. People won't feel like they lost too much because the item needed to gain access is randomly dropped so they can just farm anything and hope to get another item (they could also level a different character and get the item because it's drop chance would be unlocked for all characters when your other character reached that paragon level).

So yea just one simple idea that I quickly came up with. Their should be a better incentive in playing this game that doesn't destroy the whole"farm wherever you want" idea (which ubers did as well as demonic essence).

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