Okay then you are saying that in HC that vitality is so much keen that the players do not have any main stat on their gear at all. Virtually zero IAS, CC, CD on their gear as well. Where they have nothing but all defensive stats stacked to the stars.

Look the gearing is different in HC, I fully understand it. But in reality the cut offs are different. But they still exist. If you have a piece of gear that boost life by 5k but decreases damage by 15k would you put on that piece of gear? If yes then I guess I would see in HC players that have around 750k life, but only 20k dps right.

When I say cut offs I am talking about from a mathematical stand point. There would have to be a limit to how much of one stat you would need in order to survive. It is there that the cut off exists.

There will always be a cut off point in any system of stats. Where that cut off is and how much will be different when consider both SC and HC, classes, and specs.

There cannot be a cutoff from a mathematical standpoint, because that implies objectivity in the requirement of a stat to survive. A mathematical cutoff is an objective threshold. However, how much survivability a person needs in order to live depends on their play style, their build, and how comfortable the individual is. In HC, unlike in SC, you will see different people needing different amounts of survivability for their own comfort. My DH has survived just fine with ~700k EHP, yet you will find people who claim that you require at least 1M EHP on a DH in order to be safe.

In HC, both DPS and EHP are unbounded in their necessity. Just because a person would gladly trade a little bit of life for a lot of DPS, that doesn't mean they're still not constantly seeking to upgrade their life. They would make the trade, but seek an option where both EHP and DPS can take a bump. The necessity for each thing is unbounded, yet the limited resource provided by gear is what forces hand to a difficult choice.

There has to be a mathematical cut off in all areas of stats. A point where your build has more than enough survivability to survive whatever the game throws at them. But at the same time your need for more dps would go up. Since SC has cut offs, then the same is true for HC. The only difference is that the cut offs are different.

Where on SC you can go all out with dps and be a glass cannon and not worry about death. Where as HC you are forced to be more tank like. And have a higher than normal defensive stats. But still your dps has to be good, or the mobs would whittle down your life till you are dead. That death would be due to having such a low dps that you are tickling the mobs.

I wish I knew theorycrafting math so I could show you the difference in raw numbers what I mean. But alas I cannot because I do not know the math. I think I would have to learn calculus and that would take a really long time to learn it.

Just like there is a mathematical best build and gear choice in SC, the same is true for HC. The only thing that changes is you have to be more defensive in HC than SC.

Now the problem here is does each player use the most optimal approach to gearing their character? The answer here is no they do not. Some go all out in SC and are a glass cannon. Then come here and complain about getting killed. When all they have to do is add in a little survivability to their gear and they would be good to go. Then you have the other side of the coin where you have ones that have built a tank and hit like a wet noodle. They will survive, but even they will complain because it takes such a long time to kill the mobs.

There has to be a mathematical cut off in all areas of stats. A point where your build has more than enough survivability to survive whatever the game throws at them. But at the same time your need for more dps would go up. Since SC has cut offs, then the same is true for HC. The only difference is that the cut offs are different.

Where on SC you can go all out with dps and be a glass cannon and not worry about death. Where as HC you are forced to be more tank like. And have a higher than normal defensive stats. But still your dps has to be good, or the mobs would whittle down your life till you are dead. That death would be due to having such a low dps that you are tickling the mobs.

I wish I knew theorycrafting math so I could show you the difference in raw numbers what I mean. But alas I cannot because I do not know the math. I think I would have to learn calculus and that would take a really long time to learn it.

Just like there is a mathematical best build and gear choice in SC, the same is true for HC. The only thing that changes is you have to be more defensive in HC than SC.

Now the problem here is does each player use the most optimal approach to gearing their character? The answer here is no they do not. Some go all out in SC and are a glass cannon. Then come here and complain about getting killed. When all they have to do is add in a little survivability to their gear and they would be good to go. Then you have the other side of the coin where you have ones that have built a tank and hit like a wet noodle. They will survive, but even they will complain because it takes such a long time to kill the mobs.

It's not a matter of knowing the math. My job requires me to understand calculus like it's child's play, and my mathematics understanding is probably beyond advanced for your standards, yet I can't conjure up this argument you're trying to make, because there is none.

That there would be an upper bound in the survivability requirement would imply that there's an upper bound to the damage the game can inflict upon you under any circumstance, but that's simply not the case. It doesn't matter how rare high damage situations are, the more you are prepared for it, the better off you are. There may be diminishing returns in the benefit for EHP survivability, but there is no upper bound.

You claim there's an upper bound for EHP in SC, but not one for DPS. I agree with that. But take a moment to think why that is. (Actually, there technically is a DPS upper bound; once you can one-shot Diablo in MP10 Inferno you have reached it, but that will obviously never happen.) The reason there's no damage upper bound is because there comes no point where your farming efficiency will go down if you continue to make compromises for more DPS. On the other hand, with EHP, there is some threshold (not trivial to demonstrate) where, if you go above it, the reduction in frequency of deaths no longer makes up for the lack of clearing speed, and that is where your upper bound is reached.

But such logic is not present in HC. There is no such upper bound because there is no limit to what the game can throw at you. The more EHP you have, the more likely you are to survive rare hazards. But you have to make their frequency so low that it's even not likely to appear over the span of hundreds of games. A technical upper bound would require something as scarce as a negligible chance in over a thousand games, and such a thing is as unreasonable and unreachable as the DPS upper bound in SC. So for our sake (in HC) we can treat it as unbounded, as is DPS, which is why there's always a conflict of compromise between the two (unlike in SC).

There has to be a mathematical cut off in all areas of stats. A point where your build has more than enough survivability to survive whatever the game throws at them. But at the same time your need for more dps would go up. Since SC has cut offs, then the same is true for HC. The only difference is that the cut offs are different.

Where on SC you can go all out with dps and be a glass cannon and not worry about death. Where as HC you are forced to be more tank like. And have a higher than normal defensive stats. But still your dps has to be good, or the mobs would whittle down your life till you are dead. That death would be due to having such a low dps that you are tickling the mobs.

I wish I knew theorycrafting math so I could show you the difference in raw numbers what I mean. But alas I cannot because I do not know the math. I think I would have to learn calculus and that would take a really long time to learn it.

Just like there is a mathematical best build and gear choice in SC, the same is true for HC. The only thing that changes is you have to be more defensive in HC than SC.

Now the problem here is does each player use the most optimal approach to gearing their character? The answer here is no they do not. Some go all out in SC and are a glass cannon. Then come here and complain about getting killed. When all they have to do is add in a little survivability to their gear and they would be good to go. Then you have the other side of the coin where you have ones that have built a tank and hit like a wet noodle. They will survive, but even they will complain because it takes such a long time to kill the mobs.

It's not a matter of knowing the math. My job requires me to understand calculus like it's child's play, and my mathematics understanding is probably beyond advanced for your standards, yet I can't conjure up this argument you're trying to make, because there is none.

That there would be an upper bound in the survivability requirement would imply that there's an upper bound to the damage the game can inflict upon you under any circumstance, but that's simply not the case. It doesn't matter how rare high damage situations are, the more you are prepared for it, the better off you are. There may be diminishing returns in the benefit for EHP survivability, but there is no upper bound.

You claim there's an upper bound for EHP in SC, but not one for DPS. I agree with that. But take a moment to think why that is. (Actually, there technically is a DPS upper bound; once you can one-shot Diablo in MP10 Inferno you have reached it, but that will obviously never happen.) The reason there's no damage upper bound is because there comes no point where your farming efficiency will go down if you continue to make compromises for more DPS. On the other hand, with EHP, there is some threshold (not trivial to demonstrate) where, if you go above it, the reduction in frequency of deaths no longer makes up for the lack of clearing speed, and that is where your upper bound is reached.

But such logic is not present in HC. There is no such upper bound because there is no limit to what the game can throw at you. The more EHP you have, the more likely you are to survive rare hazards. But you have to make their frequency so low that it's even not likely to appear over the span of hundreds of games. A technical upper bound would require something as scarce as a negligible chance in over a thousand games, and such a thing is as unreasonable and unreachable as the DPS upper bound in SC. So for our sake (in HC) we can treat it as unbounded, as is DPS, which is why there's always a conflict of compromise between the two (unlike in SC).

Look if there is truly zero limit as far as how much damage the monsters can do. Then it would be impossible to survive in HC. That is right, because one day they might one shot you by doing a billion damage in one hit. Sure when you factor in your resist and other mitigation. But that mitigation could not survive a billion damage. Then the next day they would only be putting out 100 dps per strike. It might even take huge swings. Where you would have the following dps totals ; 1, 100k, 100, 1 billion, etc.. All in a single fight. So there has to be an upper limit (threshold) where your build has more than enough survivability in HC and you need to get your dps up in order to increase your kill speed so you are not allowing the mobs to stay alive long enough to kill you in HC.

And since the game is the same in SC the dps totals above would be for us SC players as well. Where there would be fights where you would be doing fine for a while. But then all of a sudden you are one shotted for an insanely high dps. Sure there are mechanics that are hidden and can cause dps spikes. But those spikes can be planned for an most players will know roughly how much EHP you will need to survive in HC.

I do not think you will ever see a player where they would say keep getting more EHP over dps. Where their dps in HC would be 20k or less.

If there are no cut offs in numbers concerning any stat. Then it would be impossible for there to be a best build, one that is absolutely the best build in the game. Also it would be impossible for their to be BiS gear as well, if cut offs did not exists. Sure it might be impossible or next to impossible to hit a super high dps and a super high EHP.

*technically*bounded in its usefulness, we can treat it as unbounded.

The same can be said of EHP. When you disconnect, sometimes it takes up to a minute for the server to recognize that and drop you. So let's say that there's an EHP limit. One where you disconnect vs a horde arcane fast pack of Mallet Lords in MP10 Inferno, alongside the key warden and an arcane succubus pack draining your armor, and stand in that punishment for a minute. The amount of EHP needed to survive that can be considered as an upper bound which is probably just as unrealistic as the DPS upper bound defined earlier. So, like with DPS, we can treat them as unbounded.

You're mistaking my argument. You think I'm saying that EHP is always a thing we can always sacrifice DPS for in HC just because it is unbounded. You're already assuming that, within my argument, there always exists some unambiguous optimal choice, but this is what I'm contesting. The need for both DPS and EHP are (effectively) unbounded in HC, and thus, it is a constant struggle in gearing between the two. Some people prefer one ratio over another depending on their play style and willingness to risk. And most people are constantly conflicted over how to make trades for them in gearing choices. And there's no right answer.

You want everything to be objective, and a simple math problem with a correct answer such as those we often see in a math class. But as soon as they give us two different stats that serve transverse goals, all objectivity is gone, and all that remains are choices of preference.

technicallybounded in its usefulness, we can treat it as unbounded.

The same can be said of EHP. When you disconnect, sometimes it takes up to a minute for the server to recognize that and drop you. So let's say that there's an EHP limit. One where you disconnect vs a horde arcane fast pack of Mallet Lords in MP10 Inferno, alongside the key warden and an arcane succubus pack draining your armor, and stand in that punishment for a minute. The amount of EHP needed to survive that can be considered as an upper bound which is probably just as unrealistic as the DPS upper bound defined earlier. So, like with DPS, we can treat them as unbounded.

You're mistaking my argument. You think I'm saying that EHP is always a thing we can always sacrifice DPS for in HC just because it is unbounded. You're already assuming that, within my argument, there always exists some unambiguous optimal choice, but this is what I'm contesting. The need for both DPS and EHP are (effectively) unbounded in HC, and thus, it is a constant struggle in gearing between the two. Some people prefer one ratio over another depending on their play style and willingness to risk. And most people are constantly conflicted over how to make trades for them in gearing choices. And there's no right answer.

You want everything to be objective, and a simple math problem with a correct answer such as those we often see in a math class. But as soon as they give us two different stats that serve transverse goals, all objectivity is gone, and all that remains are choices of preference.

I am talking about the difference in optimal and non optimal. I am talking about the differences in players that will use one or the other. The optimal approach will definitely not consider the extreme situation you described. Because to do so the player would have to forgo dps and solely build EHP to the stars. Where his dps would be around 20k or less. He would have a fine time chipping away at the mobs health on MP10.

The optimal approach can be mathed out. When you have enough data to do the math. When you know about how much dps an enemy mob puts out. Then you can account for that and still survive the battle. Sure disconnects will kill any hardcore player regardless of how well prepared they are.

Not everyone uses the optimal approach in gearing in either SC or HC.

03/01/2013 09:58 PMPosted by KCGJerIf the D3 team used Attack/Defense/Precision/Vitality as stats, then most items would be equally transferable between characters. In my opinion, it seems kind of bland but I haven't had the chance to play with it. The system in place now is set up so that not everybody is fighting for, essentially, the same gear.

The only difference between gear for different classes is the primary stat...other than that everyone goes for the same gear. (No matter the build)