Demon Hunter / mp6-mp10 = worthless

Demon Hunter
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hatred generation alone won't address chak/EA/RF/FoV/RoV being terrible at mp10

even with hatred resource expanded considerably many skills are painfully underpowered either in output &/or AoE for higher MP

good hatred will only yield to LfB and Custom Engi + echos being optimal; not exactly where I want the class to be forced

Yeah that is one of the bigger issues and I'm unsure f it can be addressed with a patch, although they did increase Bola radius with 1.0.5 so who knows. Our skills needed wider AOE and more damage, I think I'd rather see that over an increase in hatred regeneration but an increase in all 3 (damage, AOE and Hatred regen) would not be unwelcome.
I agree that regen isnt so bad where it is now.
like others have mentioned, I think the solution is to buff the damage on our spenders.

currently our best nuker for the cost is EB, but it should be something arrow related like LFB/cluster bombs. I dont mind the cost if the dmg% goes up by a ton.
like double

also add items that do +dmg to skills, not just + cc /- cost
EB is the only choice to nuke right now because you cant get 2m dmg crits with any other skill

o/
I got to lvl 100 paragon with DH and finally gave other classes a try .. DH is on the shelf.. I love DH and it is still my favorite class to play. BUT it is terrible mp6 and up compared to other classes. Granted I believe the other classes are able to bypass alot of unintended game mechanics ( BARB- berzerker is suppose to be 15 seconds long but it can last forever and Wiz has zero cool down .. just some examples).

This is what the other classes feel like :

Imagine strafe that generates hatred and rain of vengance cost 5 hatred and zero cool down.

Shadow power gloom = 35% defensive buff and 15% LS that lasts 5 seconds and consumes all DISC ( legacy NATs don't count unless every DH has 2 bil gold for a 200 k dps Legacy NAT set) .. When I say consumes all DISC is because we really can't use it for anytihing else or we won't have DISC to gloom... ( My suggestion is shadow power should last 120 seconds minimum)

versus

Barbs berzerker buffs / monks mantra buffs / wiz zero cool down eliminations plus unlimitted arcane ( CM wiz don't evven think about resources because it's always full no matter what 3 skills they cast every second )... DH's buffs are not even in the same league..

As for gear costs... remember a 1mil BARB can clear MP10 easily.. .may take longer but they won't die and they can play and clear mp10 head on full boar into the fray ... all offensive... no kiting bull!@#$..

The biggest defensive help will be Larger DISC pool and 120 seconds minimum shadow power..

Offense needs less hatred cost and zero cool down. 50 hatred and cool down.. WTF.. A DH's cool down is simple . when we run out of Hatred ..

Effective damage??? on a DH it's mostly one or two attacks at a time and there is usally a cost.. MONKS/barbs/wiz can use 3 to 5 attacks skills all at the same time.. So a 100k dps barb/wiz does way more Effecitive damage then a DH ..

If anyone thinks this will make a DH too powerful.. check this comparison...

Bola thunder stuns one mob and we spike trap ( okay .. good) versus Wiz freezes all surrounding mobs - explosive blast/wicked wind/ meteor / diamonds skin ( and 1/2 second later repeat unlimited - they get cool downs erased / max arcane/ and 3 attacks skills ) DH is not in the same league...

Thats my thoughts anyways..
I dislike the title as this is not true. As a few others stated here, I don't feel that hatred regeneration is the issue. The main reason most people experience issues with hatred regen is because they are slotting a manticore, which has no inherent hatred regeneration and is much slower than its counter parts. How many wizards do you see slotting a skorn and saying "omg i can't permafreeze!"

I also want to say that LFB does 704% weapon damage. Each bomb does an addition 100% AoE damage and there's 4 of them. The damage potential for this is really high, as each bomb can crit independently. Often when I launch LFB with all my buffs on, the initial impact does 1.1 mil, and each bomb crits for 350k on average. That's 2.5 mil damage.

2 runes for spike traps deal 825% weapon damage. Again with all my buffs applied + bonus from nats chest, each explosion crits for 900k on average. That's 2.7 mil damage. Both scenarios can be semi-spammed since I slotted a Calamity and even more so If i wanted to use bat.

With this stated, I can't agree that we don't have hard hitting spells. Often we like to compare how hard other classes are hitting using nearly ALL of their buffs, but yet we often don't even use half of our buffs. Even my hatred regenerators aren't that bad off, with shock collar putting out the mid 800k's including shock damage, but then again I'm running 4 DPS buffs so I can achieve these numbers.

I will say that its MUCH harder for us to achieve good EDPS in comparison to the other classes, and I personally feel this is the root of the aggravation and frustration when they see barbs wiping the floor in mp 10 while eating popcorn and browsing d3 forums, only having to tab in to pick up items. It reminds me of the old school Protoss death ball. This is understandable.

I do feel that its unfortunate that we are pigeon holed into these 2 hatred spenders for edps and would love to see other runes and spenders do more stuff, however it's like that with all classes at higher mp levels so its not just a DH problem. It would be interesting to see how blizzard will tackle such issue.
I dislike the title as this is not true. As a few others stated here, I don't feel that hatred regeneration is the issue. The main reason most people experience issues with hatred regen is because they are slotting a manticore, which has no inherent hatred regeneration and is much slower than its counter parts. How many wizards do you see slotting a skorn and saying "omg i can't permafreeze!"

I also want to say that LFB does 704% weapon damage. Each bomb does an addition 100% AoE damage and there's 4 of them. The damage potential for this is really high, as each bomb can crit independently. Often when I launch LFB with all my buffs on, the initial impact does 1.1 mil, and each bomb crits for 350k on average. That's 2.5 mil damage.

2 runes for spike traps deal 825% weapon damage. Again with all my buffs applied + bonus from nats chest, each explosion crits for 900k on average. That's 2.7 mil damage. Both scenarios can be semi-spammed since I slotted a Calamity and even more so If i wanted to use bat.

With this stated, I can't agree that we don't have hard hitting spells. Often we like to compare how hard other classes are hitting using nearly ALL of their buffs, but yet we often don't even use half of our buffs. Even my hatred regenerators aren't that bad off, with shock collar putting out the mid 800k's including shock damage, but then again I'm running 4 DPS buffs so I can achieve these numbers.

I will say that its MUCH harder for us to achieve good EDPS in comparison to the other classes, and I personally feel this is the root of the aggravation and frustration when they see barbs wiping the floor in mp 10 while eating popcorn and browsing d3 forums, only having to tab in to pick up items. It reminds me of the old school Protoss death ball. This is understandable.

I do feel that its unfortunate that we are pigeon holed into these 2 hatred spenders for edps and would love to see other runes and spenders do more stuff, however it's like that with all classes at higher mp levels so its not just a DH problem. It would be interesting to see how blizzard will tackle such issue.


It has nothing to do with the weapon, calamity only gives you an additional ~1.3 hatred per sec, thats nothing when a CA costs 50 hatred a pop. As for higher attack speeds, yea its faster but the avg dmg of a top end calamity is far lower than a top end manticore, you generate hatred faster with a calamity but your spenders also do far less dmg.

It has everything to do with resource generation and resource efficiency, DHs have poor EDPs because they cannot recover resources instantly like barbs or wizards and skills cost far too much hatred for too little dmg.
If you really want to get down to the brass tacks of it all, the issue is the combination of poor resource regeneration across a relatively poor selection of damage skills.

The irony of our class is that we were provided some of the BEST defensive skills, making us one of the tankiest classes in the game... yet we "supposed" to be the dps range class.

Go figure.
It has nothing to do with the weapon, calamity only gives you an additional ~1.3 hatred per sec, thats nothing when a CA costs 50 hatred a pop.


Yes it does. The faster you attack, the more hatred you regen. The 1.3 hatred regen is a bonus.


As for higher attack speeds, yea its faster but the avg dmg of a top end calamity is far lower than a top end manticore, you generate hatred faster with a calamity but your spenders also do far less dmg.


Paper damage, yes. EDPS no. It depends on how you gear around each weapon. Calamity also allows you to fire off more hatred spenders which in turn will be more efficient depending on the buffs you run.


It has everything to do with resource generation and resource efficiency, DHs have poor EDPs because they cannot recover resources instantly like barbs or wizards and skills cost far too much hatred for too little dmg.


So the numbers I gave you above is terrible? Ok. With bat and calamity, I can churn out LFB at a rate of roughly 0.9 times a second. This is without using equipment to reduce its cost or the passive. That is slightly faster than bell spam WITH equipment geared for it. Like I said, hatred regeneration is not the issue, you simply chose it to be by using a manticore. The biggest difference in resource regeneration/management in comparison is that we have to work harder for ours to be effective. This does NOT mean that ours is bad. I'm all for wanting to help out the DH cause, but this area isn't where its needed.

Also, you can stop mentioning barbs. No class even comes close to what they can achieve. This is an overall design issue.
03/13/2013 12:54 PMPosted by Tropicalypso
tankiest classes in the game... yet we "supposed" to be the dps range class.


Took the words right out of my mouth. I could not agree more.

The only time I feel mobile is when using strafe or evasive fire...

Does no one else notice the bypass or work around that other classes get that we do not??

I would love for DH strafe to have 10 hatred start up cost / 3 hatred to maintain strafe/regen hatred and have zero cool down on all DH skills. Plus extend shadow power to 120 seconds. This is not too much to ask because other classes have that plus tones more damage buffs to boot.

As an example:

CM wiz( roughly 10 mil gold)
1.73 APS / 400 LoH/300 all res/30k hp and 30k dps will out perform/out tank most 70 mil DH with 150k dps DH all day in an Ueber run/key farm/ mp5 loot farm ... .. This is because are able to bypass ALL restrictions originally placed on them ( Cool down/arcane regen/life regen - is tens times the starting pool per second ) .... BARBs does this too ..
yes we need better hatred spender and regeneration. maybe if the lame delay on EB is removed and it cost as much as ballightning, but i'd still like other things buffed, so ppl dont feel like they r forced to use such skill in high mp to be efficient
dream passive :

Nightstalker - 2 Disc regen/3 hatred regen and when in shadow power gain 35% additional resource regen.( this includes DISC/HATRED/life regen on gear) Plus extend shadow power to 7 minutes...

Look up monk passives and mantra... if you think i am asking for too much ...
The problem is that you're using the wrong build for high MP. Here's the build that I use for soloing MP10. No need to kite, just sit there and blow stuff up.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#UQkgXR!Xfe!ZacYZZ

If you have 300AR, 3500 armor and 60k life, you can facetank the world. (I'd also recommend having at least a discipline pool of at least 50, any less and you can get in some sticky situations that are hard to get out of)

Clustergrenades proc nightstalker so well that you can keep shadow power up 100% and use occasional smoke screes as long as you have at least 50% CC and 1.80 attacks persecond or so (obviously the higher the attack speed and crit chance the better, but I found that a calamity gave me more disc regeneration than was strictly necissary, and that about 2.0 aps with a manti is plenty). With the turret and shadow power gloom, you get a constant 50% damage reduction in addition to your armor and all resists. The rest of the skills are there for damage.

The one thing I agree with most in this thread is that DH have too low of effective DPS. You can totally use this build with as low as 200k dps, but it'll be pretty slow, and I wouldnt call MP10 remotely efferent until at least 500k dps. Which is nearly impossible to achieve.

I'm not the first person to use this build, but I saw some similar builds and tuned it to my liking.
Great looking DH you've got.. very cool ..

As someone stated earlier we are a face tank class. This limits us to small build window with low mobility. As a RANGED /DMG class this sucks.

Also look at your minimum DPS recommendation - at 200k dps it's still poor Effective DPS. 200 k dps is tons of play time and gold. We invest 100 times more gold/time into our DH when other classes invest 1/1000 time / effort/gold to surpass us.

The amount of gear quality /stat on a 200k dps DH should equal more ( 10 times more) eDPS... Can we all agree to that ?


Yes it does. The faster you attack, the more hatred you regen. The 1.3 hatred regen is a bonus.


The faster you attack, the more hatred you expend too, its a wash in the end. With calamity both your generators and spenders will deal less dmg than a manticore.


Paper damage, yes. EDPS no. It depends on how you gear around each weapon. Calamity also allows you to fire off more hatred spenders which in turn will be more efficient depending on the buffs you run.


What does the other pieces of your setup matter? Assuming you have all trifectas/quadfectas in all slots, a manticore would still do more dmg in the end because its more resource efficient. Since you talked about paper dmg well yea you can technically have higher paper dps with a calamity but since most of it is in speed, its possible to end up with less EDPS in the end. Its like trying to play an arcane orb spec with a chantodos will instead of a skorn or black spear + trium. IAS falsely inflates dps unless you are not resource constrained (like how a cm wiz isnt).

Also buffs have nothing to do with this. Both a calamity and manticore user can run the same buffs.



So the numbers I gave you above is terrible? Ok. With bat and calamity, I can churn out LFB at a rate of roughly 0.9 times a second. This is without using equipment to reduce its cost or the passive. That is slightly faster than bell spam WITH equipment geared for it. Like I said, hatred regeneration is not the issue, you simply chose it to be by using a manticore. The biggest difference in resource regeneration/management in comparison is that we have to work harder for ours to be effective. This does NOT mean that ours is bad. I'm all for wanting to help out the DH cause, but this area isn't where its needed.

Also, you can stop mentioning barbs. No class even comes close to what they can achieve. This is an overall design issue.


0.9 times per sec isnt possible. Base hatred generation is 4 per sec, with bat, DML and calamity you get +6.51, so 10.51 hatred per sec. At your aps (2.7) you can get off 2 shots before you fire a LFB so you gain another 8 hatred, so in total you only gain 18.51 hatred per sec. CA costs 50 hatred so there is a 31.49 hatred deficit per sec. Sorry but you are not firing off 0.9x LFB per sec, its not even close.

Its not just barbs that are capable of recovering resources quickly, wizards and to a lesser extent, monks can do this very well too.

Clearly DHs have a resource generation problem, using a faster weapon will not ameliorate the situation, it will only mask it (and probably make it worse).
As someone stated earlier we are a face tank class. This limits us to small build window with low mobility . As a RANGED /DMG class this sucks.


http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8196601313

The limit is one's imagination and effort.

Also look at your minimum DPS recommendation - at 200k dps it's still poor Effective DPS. 200 k dps is tons of play time and gold. We invest 100 times more gold/time into our DH when other classes invest 1/1000 time / effort/gold to surpass us.

The amount of gear quality /stat on a 200k dps DH should equal more ( 10 times more) eDPS... Can we all agree to that ?


Tanking is highly inefficient per gold cost in comparison to playing a ranged DH. That is why you feel that way. I do think that no melee class should ever come close to range classes in terms of EDPS (ahem, barbs!). This would require pretty much a rework in which we would most likely never see :(
The limit is one's imagination.


I am always open to new ideas. So i will definitely give your build/play style a try. Thanks in advance. I will try it out ..
DH works awesome as a ranged/dps class on low mp and in groups on high mp, but mobs have so much HP on high mp that you either have to kite for years or just resort to facetanking. But yeah, I feel like DH does need an eDPS buff to keep up with the other classes.

I feel like monk, DH and WD are all lacking the god mode that barb and wiz have (wiz actually has two with archon and CM / freeze lock). Some combination of shadow power and or rain of vengeance or maybe strafe turning into godmode skills would be pretty rad. Maybe if shadow power acted more like how archon or barb's WotB would be ideal. Or have some kind of mechanic to reduce CD on rain of vengeance and buff it's acuracy and eDPS.

Or it could be cool if there was some way of making strafe as powerful as WW barb while still making it feel like a distinct play style and build rather than making DH just barb 2.0.

Another option that I would personally enjoy would be to make DH a super glass cannon DPS powerhouse that was impossible to solo high mp with, but was highly desired in a party. Maybe make the Steady Aim passive say something like "reduces all armor and resists by 20%, but increases damage of all skills by 200% as long as there are no enemies withing 15 yards" something that's actually powerful and has a draw back, rather than a paltry 20% that's of questionable usefulness when compared to tactical advantage or nighstalker.

Basically I really like DH, but when push comes to shove, it's really terrible and nearly unplayable when compared to barb or wiz, and neither of those classes really have any incentive to party with DH's because their effective dps is so high that they out dps the dps class -_-
03/13/2013 02:34 PMPosted by DiEoxidE
As someone stated earlier we are a face tank class. This limits us to small build window with low mobility . As a RANGED /DMG class this sucks.


http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8196601313

The limit is one's imagination and effort.

Also look at your minimum DPS recommendation - at 200k dps it's still poor Effective DPS. 200 k dps is tons of play time and gold. We invest 100 times more gold/time into our DH when other classes invest 1/1000 time / effort/gold to surpass us.

The amount of gear quality /stat on a 200k dps DH should equal more ( 10 times more) eDPS... Can we all agree to that ?


Tanking is highly inefficient per gold cost in comparison to playing a ranged DH. That is why you feel that way. I do think that no melee class should ever come close to range classes in terms of EDPS (ahem, barbs!). This would require pretty much a rework in which we would most likely never see :(


That's all well and good, and I'm totally capable of playing the fast kiting glass cannon play style. I'm not saying that it's impossible, it's just that it gets super tiring super fast. It's just too much physical effort compared to just sitting there and holding one button like a CM wiz.

My point is that the facetank style is the only way to solo mp10 without your arms falling off after a couple hours. The ranged/glasscannon/highdps build works best in a party because you dont have to run around like a chicken with your head cut off. And I also think that those builds dont have enough extra dps to be worth the extra effort over a face tank build.
Both resource management and hitting hard are actually in tandem with each other. WD zombie bears aside, most other classes overwhelm enemies with sheer number of attacks. CM wiz's kill by spamming multiple spells, all of them doing minor damage on their own, but all combined to output a sheer amount of damage. If I were to classify a DH build that would work in a similar way, it would be the old school Tank Hunter, with no damage/attack limit on Jagged Spikes on Caltrops (and theres no cast animation to drop Caltrops, so Caltrops and Spike Traps can be dropped at the same time), plus the current state of Spiked Trap- Echoing Blast, combined with some sort of ability to feed enough hatred and discipline that these two abilities can be chain casted.

I don't have much experience with barbs unfortunately, but the double tornado build could be likened to the strafe build, this time again, with the ability to drop Sentries and Jagged Spikes Caltrops and unlimited resource regeneration.

Can't say much about WDs, I think their zombie bear build comes close to our Spike Trap spam, but we beat them in terms of sustainability.

Tempest Rush monks aside, its the same issue. A monk running bells and FoThunder - Quickening can be likened to old school Belial kills with a Nether Tentacle and M4D-Mortal Enemy build, hard hitting spells combined with a massive resource generation.
WD have zero cooldown zombie dogs that do INSANE AOE damage. You have to build and gear for it but its devestating just like a CMWIZ is. They basically summon zombie dogs and have them explode suicide style and have zero cooldown on them due to gear and just spam them. Z Dog build as its called lol. Zombie bears went out of style and is an old build.

The problem with DH is a combination of things, its the cooldown on so many skills, its the terribad AOE on certain skills, its a low DPS multiplier on tons of skills and the high cost of many of these skills and the inability to have a super charged resource regeneration rate to spam skills..

All these things together create a much lower effective DPS for DH's than the other classes even though were considered the ranged Nuke class. Too much glass not enough cannon lol
The faster you attack, the more hatred you expend too, its a wash in the end. With calamity both your generators and spenders will deal less dmg than a manticore.


You ignored the numbers I gave you.

What does the other pieces of your setup matter? Assuming you have all trifectas/quadfectas in all slots, a manticore would still do more dmg in the end because its more resource efficient. Since you talked about paper dmg well yea you can technically have higher paper dps with a calamity but since most of it is in speed, its possible to end up with less EDPS in the end. Its like trying to play an arcane orb spec with a chantodos will instead of a skorn or black spear + trium. IAS falsely inflates dps unless you are not resource constrained (like how a cm wiz isnt).

Also buffs have nothing to do with this. Both a calamity and manticore user can run the same buffs.


It matters quite a bit. For one, manticore is not a black weapon. Two, unless you have 10 bil sitting around, how you gear for your weapon is crucial to edps (not just paper dps). Also no you can't run the exact same buffs because you can never step nearly well enough with a manticore to take advantage of certain passives like you can a calamity, so yes, buffs does matter.

0.9 times per sec isnt possible. Base hatred generation is 4 per sec, with bat, DML and calamity you get +6.51, so 10.51 hatred per sec. At your aps (2.7) you can get off 2 shots before you fire a LFB so you gain another 8 hatred, so in total you only gain 18.51 hatred per sec. CA costs 50 hatred so there is a 31.49 hatred deficit per sec. Sorry but you are not firing off 0.9x LFB per sec, its not even close.

Its not just barbs that are capable of recovering resources quickly, wizards and to a lesser extent, monks can do this very well too.


Good catch. I had the wrong number listed next to this hatred spender on my lengthy index. Got it fixed now and its actually 1.79 for me. This is however, still not terrible for the most expensive hatred spender and the damage I'm doing when I launch it (in which you conveniently did not comment on).

I'm well aware that its not just barbs that can recover resources very quickly, they just happen to be the class that completely outshines all other classes. It doesn't matter if wiz/monks can do the same, they are not nearly as efficient as barbs and they don't "outperform" us per gold spent unless you play a Tank DH. They are simply easier to play. DH's don't need a buff in this category, though I know you're going to continue to feel different because of how you play your DH. This is fine, I have no issues agreeing to disagree.

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