Bring back the Skill Tree please

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To people who like the system currently: would you be happy with the game if Blizzard streamlined the item system the same way they did the skill system? Just give you a menu of items to choose from freely with a budget based on your current level of progression?

No, that sounds like utter garbage you say? If you understand why that would feel so lacking, can you at least relate to why some of us find the D3 skill system so lacking?
Are there cookie cutter builds? Of course. Are some builds going to be better than others? Absolutely. The point is that with such a vast array of options, the margin for error per point spent is decreased. Whereas three points wasted in Diablo 2 warranted a reroll, ten points wasted in PoE will probably not impact your character very much.

I would like to add to your post by saying that PoE may have cookie cutter, but with the implementation of new skills constantly and small passive tree adjustments those cookie cutter builds are effectively destroyed and have to be rediscovered again. They don't take months introducing such skills either, and as they implement more there are a vast more amount of options for "optimal"
To people who like the system currently: would you be happy with the game if Blizzard streamlined the item system the same way they did the skill system? Just give you a menu of items to choose from freely with a budget based on your current level of progression?

No, that sounds like utter garbage you say? If you understand why that would feel so lacking, can you at least relate to why some of us find the D3 skill system so lacking?

It's simply over your head, move on.
03/28/2013 11:02 AMPosted by KradisZ
Are there cookie cutter builds? Of course. Are some builds going to be better than others? Absolutely. The point is that with such a vast array of options, the margin for error per point spent is decreased. Whereas three points wasted in Diablo 2 warranted a reroll, ten points wasted in PoE will probably not impact your character very much.

I would like to add to your post by saying that PoE may have cookie cutter, but with the implementation of new skills constantly and small passive tree adjustments those cookie cutter builds are effectively destroyed and have to be rediscovered again. They don't take months introducing such skills either, and as they implement more there are a vast more amount of options for "optimal"


And I'll add to this that whether or not people like PoE they certainly do exponentially better addressing bugs and providing fresh content all while being an indie developer funded by cosmetic micro-transactions. D3 still has serious core problems, laughable PvP that didn't even get a queue system, and all the while it is developed by a Triple A company that rakes in hundreds of millions to billions each year.
03/28/2013 10:15 AMPosted by Ryu
actually, leveling a new toon to respec isn't really an issue here. recently, i re-installed D2 and found out there was an option to reset all skill points by talking to Akara.


Umm you get to do that 3 times. Then as much as you want after that with a token.

It's simply over your head, move on.


Sweet jumpin' Jesus it isn't over anyone's head, it's stick dumb simple. Nothing really wrong with that in principle, simple and intuitive can be good qualities in a game system.
Q: After some while, all superior builds will be created, players will just copy from the Internet, if the tree and decisions will finally become redundant, why should there be a tree?

A: What you eat will finally become poops, then why do you eat tasty foods? Because even eating for nutrition can be entertaining, not to mention we are playing a game. To be realistic, Diablo 3 is not a subscription based game that is meant to be expanded and played forever. It will go to an end like every other game, what really matters is whether the players quit with smiles on their faces and whether they will pre-order your next title for the good old experiences and respect, like what we had in other Blizzard games.


More smiles will come from people who can freely choose these "superior builds" whenever they want, not by making a character predestined to have them. All of the complaining about skill trees will go away if Blizzard will just make other builds more viable. In 2013, players should not be permanently penalized for bad choices they make, especially if they don't know better. Skill trees are just something D2 fanboys feel that they cannot live without. That being said there does need to be more customization in this game, but a skill tree is not the way to do it.
03/28/2013 10:11 AMPosted by IloveJesus
To make every skill on a skill tree viable, you need to make each ability a percentage instead of a static value, so you can balance and scale perfectly from early game to end game.


But making it a percentage will make the game horribly gear dependent like it is now which is what I hate about the current skill system.

At least in D2 with a static system the skill damage was largely independent of gear save for item effects such as +2 to all skills. They could adjust the static values so that a few skill points could handle the earlier difficulties but when you get closer to the skill cap you can do Inferno and then the higher MPs. Alternatively they could make the skills scale with your stats but since we can't do stat allocations either, the stats would come from gear again making our skill damage gear dependent.

Are you talking to me or other people? You know people just read your posts just to laugh right? Why are you trying to diss me in 3rd person LOL. Your points are only valid because all you do is talk about D2 vs D3, like i said after 10-11 years its easy to innovate upon such ideas. Other than WW and to a lesser extent throw barb, what other builds do barbarians have that are MP5+ viable? There maybe 1 or 2 more, but I doubt they are atleast as 80% efficient. Look at all the people on this thread that keep saying D3 has more choice etc etc, they all have the same cookie cutter builds as everyone else. You even used to be WW and got bored and now trying out throw barb.

I never said I was bored I wanted to try a throwing barb an expected to lose some dps. I'm still working on him. I will look to other builds. I know that there are full melee Barb builds that work, I wanted to try the thrower. Once again you try to put words in my mouth.

I'm not sure what you mean by choice, but if you look across classes most of the skills are kind of the same and have similar mechanics, and I don't consider changing 1 rune on 1 skill as choice. And really I don't think you played TL2 or PoE because simply you are a hater and every closed minded, you wouldn't want to hurt your Blizzard Blind fanboy reputation so you just don't even try those games out. Many people have and even outlined in these thread there are numerous people who agree that those games have atleast attempted to find some middle ground in this debate. You however seem to prefer being simple and simple things, unfortunately in real life there are consequences for decisions, so I don't see why there shouldn't be some sort of consequence for switching your build on the fly. Losing NV stacks is barely a consequence.

I had a Poe beta key before it went open beta. I did not care for the game. I did not like the stick figure animation. I did not like plodding around with less than lackluster combat. Nothing about the game impressed me. Why would I play it. middle ground, who wants middle ground. Put lipstick on a pig it is still a pig, in the case of poe maybe a swine.They went to another game copied it's basic system dressed it up and put lipstick on it. D3 took a brand new direction.

What is this dynamic structure, by dynamic are you referring to that fact you can change builds on the fly or whenever? Because if you are, do you not realize people don't really change their builds? Look at some profiles some of these days, and I bet 90% of the people have the same build in each class. You keep mentioning you are making a throw barb like it matters, its the only other barbs have to have "fun" with, but thats the only example you have, and I understand you are trying to milk to crap out of it like its valid in this argument LOL.


I play wow started mop with 10 85's I think I have 3 90's now working on the rest. I play several D3 characters. I mention the thrower because he was my example of how you could change a build in D3 if you wanted to do so. Atm i am on my monk. I don't care it 90% of people have the same build, that is they're choice it does not have to be that way. How can you make a blanket statement like"people don't really change their builds" Maybe that is how it is in the circles you travel in But regardless of build I am always trying different things. I like going to D3up and working with the skills an then coming back to the game to try the changes. I never swap skills on the fly while questing or such. I log out log back in and make the changes. So dynamic to me means I can change the skills as I see fit without having to change characters.


Anyways like I said go look at TL2 and PoE and see how they are doing things. Go look at GrindingGearGames youtube channel and look at all the viable builds they have on there. Freedom is always better than restriction, but I think that you grab your ankles and just take whatever Blizzard throws your way and convince yourself that whatever Blizzard does is best, thats the True Blind fanboy in you. You even said you played D2 for 8 years or something like that, and I'm sure you bought this game because of it as well, but now you turn your back on it, seems like the person you are.
Like i said I saw Poe did not care for it.I have seen over a dozen of the build of the week presented by the developers. As for Tl2 I have no interest in it
. I have stated many times that I enjoyed D2, but never overlooked the fact that it was riddled with bots,dupes,hacks, exploits an 3rd party vendors. It is what it is, and i worked with that. Now to say because I feel the d3 skill system is better than the max skill, max it's synergies is turning my back on it you are wrong. It is my opinion and I think it is right. I bought D3 because I wanted to try it. I was pleased that it had a fresh feel to it and was not lipstick on D2. I bought hots because I like Sc2 although I don't get to play it much. I have Wow for pvp.

Now even when I played D2 I was outspoken against bots ect. I'd make free drop games to give gear out because in all those years I never sold to a third party site. I let hundreds of high level ladder characters and their runwords go to the round filer.

D3 skill system doesn't have to be EXACTLY like D2, it can be better. You say there is freedom and choice right now, but looking at people profiles and their builds truly contradicts anything you are trying to say. Sorry buddy.


What a simplistic view. Games out less than a year with a new skill system and many other changes. Just because people chose to use cookie cutter builds does not mean that is all there is. Apparently you You haven't reached the mental age of reason. you jump to conclusions with nothing to back them up, Take things out of context. Can barely grasp the simplest examples and look at them objectively. Your last statement illustrates this.
Btw D3 is better than D2. It will go no to eclipse D2.
Your Engrish is awrfur

It's simply over your head, move on.


Sweet jumpin' Jesus it isn't over anyone's head, it's stick dumb simple. Nothing really wrong with that in principle, simple and intuitive can be good qualities in a game system.


lol well your example was really pathetic. I read it and thought Does this guy actually understand what is happening here. Can he grasp that all the skills, runes and passives do offer a lot of possibilities. Then to compare this to some ridiculous example What was I supposed to think.
To people who like the system currently: would you be happy with the game if Blizzard streamlined the item system the same way they did the skill system? Just give you a menu of items to choose from freely with a budget based on your current level of progression?

No, that sounds like utter garbage you say? If you understand why that would feel so lacking, can you at least relate to why some of us find the D3 skill system so lacking?


Sadly i believe many would love that BTw.
lol well your example was really pathetic. I read it and thought Does this guy actually understand what is happening here. Can he grasp that all the skills, runes and passives do offer a lot of possibilities. Then to compare this to some ridiculous example What was I supposed to think.


Yes they offer a lot of possibilities. Just as selecting all your items from a menu could offer a lot of possibilities.

But you build a set of items over time, not pick them from a menu, that's part of the appeal of an RPG.

I'd like to build a set of skills and runes over time, and not simply pick them from a menu. Not a D2 skill tree of permanent choices, but a flexible system you earn just as you earn gear.
My last statement was "Sorry Buddy" unless you are talking about the people's profile thing, because that statement is true. D3 is an illusion of customization, remember JW saying there will be billions of builds? I've seen maybe 10-15 at most unique viable builds(all difficulties) spread among 5 classes. Which to me is pretty damn sad.

I remember that statement, I was like WOW! at the time. After release and after playing it, "what the f.... *kicks a trash can over*"

and also when discovered
"WHY THE FK WASNT THIS TURNED ON BY DEFAULT omg. it's like WELL hidden away in the options menu -_-"
*cough* elective mode *cough*
03/28/2013 01:03 PMPosted by tequila1024
lol well your example was really pathetic. I read it and thought Does this guy actually understand what is happening here. Can he grasp that all the skills, runes and passives do offer a lot of possibilities. Then to compare this to some ridiculous example What was I supposed to think.


Yes they offer a lot of possibilities. Just as selecting all your items from a menu could offer a lot of possibilities.

But you build a set of items over time, not pick them from a menu, that's part of the appeal of an RPG.

I'd like to build a set of skills and runes over time, and not simply pick them from a menu. Not a D2 skill tree of permanent choices, but a flexible system you earn just as you earn gear.

Ok i understand this. But you are not channeled to a single skill. 20-24 skills, 5 runes each then 3 passive skills. In effect you can build a skill. how would your system work realistically?

In d3 the barb(he is what loaded) has
Tactics rage primary secondary defensive and might
4 skills 3 skills 3 skills 4 skills 4 skills 4 skills
5 runes 5 runes 5 runes 5 runes 5 runes 5 runes

3 passives
This is how the skills are structured. You do not get all the skills an runes at one the passives I believe are at 10, 20, and 30. Might are at 9, 13 21 26. rage is 19, 23 ,30. the other vary.

So we do not get to chose out of a bag of skills upfront. The runes work pretty much the same way.

In D2 we had tiers to allocate skills. We chose a skill like bash then maybe a mastery then a shout. After that we worked toward the top skill of choice filled in the prereques and synergies as indicated by the skill lable.

How would your flexible system work. You would have to have a preset group of skills to begin What would trigger learning a skill and how would it be allocated.
Ummm,
So let me get this straight? you are asking and begging like a dog to the Grandmaster Blizzard to tell his Minion's the D3 Dev team to give us back the skills tree like D2?. So in D2 for example with a Amazon, you can make a Bowazon, Xbowazon, Javazon, Melee Zon, Melee with a Shield Zon, Pikezon, and other combination Zon, while in D3 you can make a Dh Bow ,Dh Xbowzon,and DH Bow and Dh Xbow and than aother Dh Bow , Dh Xbow. oh sorry Forgot in D3 there's only 2 way a Dh... go figure?
Ummm,
So let me get this straight? you are asking and begging like a dog to the Grandmaster Blizzard to tell his Minion's the D3 Dev team to give us back the skills tree like D2?. So in D2 for example with a Amazon, you can make a Bowazon, Xbowazon, Javazon, Melee Zon, Melee with a Shield Zon, Pikezon, and other combination Zon, while in D3 you can make a Dh Bow ,Dh Xbowzon,and DH Bow and Dh Xbow and than aother Dh Bow , Dh Xbow. oh sorry Forgot in D3 there's only 2 way a Dh... go figure?


Your post is super confusing, not sure what you are trying to say LOL

I think D2 he means you have a bunch of builds one can be.
D3 the DH for example has only 2 build types it can be, one that uses a bow, or a crossbow. end of story.
I WANT SKILL TREES

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