Can't decide between DW or Skorn

Barbarian
04/02/2013 08:41 AMPosted by acrimonious
There's a problem with your gear if you need to swap out weapons / armour to handle different densities, attacks, damage.


Finally, someone who makes sense :)
04/02/2013 08:41 AMPosted by acrimonious
There's a problem with your gear if you need to swap out weapons / armour to handle different densities, attacks, damage.


For most of us with limited budgets, this is the path we have to take. If gold were unlimited, of course we could all faceroll every different type of farm available with 1 set of weapons.
04/01/2013 11:54 PMPosted by PhatPhoEater
I have not been able to face tank mp10 elites in act2 without using rend when using hota. how do you do it without rend?

1M EHP + 9% LS
04/02/2013 08:41 AMPosted by acrimonious
There's a problem with your gear if you need to swap out weapons / armour to handle different densities, attacks, damage.

Hey acrimony, I totally agree with this statement and it's exactly how I always try to gear. If there's even one elite that my build and gear struggle with, it bothers me enough to figure out how to deal with it. (Which most of the time means getting more defense)

I think this mentality, however, is also what caused you to get into so many conflicts with others. You were always a proponent of gearing better for the sake of gearing better. Unfortunately, the game doesn't reward this style very well. Even MP10 elites aren't very demanding in terms of gearing requirements, and there's plenty of hard proof that bothering to kill elites at all on high MP's is worthless from an efficiency standpoint. Even if you are killing elites, it's almost always more efficient to skip any of them that give you trouble.

The game is currently tuned in such a way that the less challenging the content is, the more rewarding it is.
04/02/2013 08:48 AMPosted by PhatPhoEater
There's a problem with your gear if you need to swap out weapons / armour to handle different densities, attacks, damage.


For most of us with limited budgets, this is the path we have to take. If gold were unlimited, of course we could all faceroll every different type of farm available with 1 set of weapons.


I'm sorry, but until I blew 300m on Hero Flash, perhaps the greatest non-Echoing Fury offhand in the history of Diablo, I spent very little. And this was before the market completely tanked.


For most of us with limited budgets, this is the path we have to take. If gold were unlimited, of course we could all faceroll every different type of farm available with 1 set of weapons.


I am suprrised to hear you say something like that. Budget will only determine how much dps you have. You can still make a gear set that will perform well in all situtations, and your damage output will depend on how much you spend.
There's a problem with your gear if you need to swap out weapons / armour to handle different densities, attacks, damage.

Hey acrimony, I totally agree with this statement and it's exactly how I always try to gear. If there's even one elite that my build and gear struggle with, it bothers me enough to figure out how to deal with it. (Which most of the time means getting more defense)

I think this mentality, however, is also what caused you to get into so many conflicts with others. You were always a proponent of gearing better for the sake of gearing better. Unfortunately, the game doesn't reward this style very well. Even MP10 elites aren't very demanding in terms of gearing requirements, and there's plenty of hard proof that bothering to kill elites at all on high MP's is worthless from an efficiency standpoint. Even if you are killing elites, it's almost always more efficient to skip any of them that give you trouble.

The game is currently tuned in such a way that the less challenging the content is, the more rewarding it is.


My problem with others is that they think damage at the expense of defenses correlates with efficiency. I wish CaptAmerica, Vincecomen, and others I have played with still posted because they would tell everyone that I was always the last person standing and doing the most consistent damage. Even Google would admit to this; and he spent a lot of money on his gear.

I never understood why people want to be 'efficient' in Softcore. I can understand it in Hardcore because the meta-game is vastly different, but in Softcore, you're supposed to be gearing as well as you can so you can play any style you want. Hiding behind defensive buffs just limits your options (although I do think the passives could stand to be more diverse).

I'm not kidding when I say that if they rebuffed the Monster Power to its original state, the entire game changes for the better. People will recognize that it's not always about the damage you can give, but the consistency of it.

Just look at my Hardcore streams. I was killing everything at MP3 with records of 179 elite kills with anywhere between 60-75,000,000 experience per hour.


I'm sorry, but until I blew 300m on Hero Flash, perhaps the greatest non-Echoing Fury offhand in the history of Diablo, I spent very little. And this was before the market completely tanked.


I remember that sword and about the same time I was rocking about 120k dps with my WW build but I still used DW. I had my time with a skorn that I snipped during AH maintenance near the end of 1.03 and I remember you telling me that it would not work for WW. With the addition of monster power, it became more viable on higher mp's but I still got rid of it after I realized DW was the best option.


I'm sorry, but until I blew 300m on Hero Flash, perhaps the greatest non-Echoing Fury offhand in the history of Diablo, I spent very little. And this was before the market completely tanked.


I remember that sword and about the same time I was rocking about 120k dps with my WW build but I still used DW. I had my time with a skorn that I snipped during AH maintenance near the end of 1.03 and I remember you telling me that it would not work for WW. With the addition of monster power, it became more viable on higher mp's but I still got rid of it after I realized DW was the best option.


ThunderGod proved that it would work with Whirlwind and Keik, Lorenze, and I backed off when we saw it. But at the same time, it wasn't about whether it would work but whether there was enough gear in the market to support it.
I think we are arguing about different things. I don't suggest that people go out and buy specific armor/weapons to deal with specific elite packs. I'm talking about different types of farming.

MP10 Keeps2 no elite farm can be done for very cheap. However, that same gearset/weapon (probably skorn if talking about cheapest option) wont necessarily get it done for mp10 VOTA/KW act2 farm. Alkaizer runs are fastest with a different weapon combo.

As I mentioned above, if gold were unlimited, you could probably make a single set and do any kind of farm you want relatively quickly. The vast majority of users don't have that luxury.
I think we are arguing about different things. I don't suggest that people go out and buy specific armor/weapons to deal with specific elite packs. I'm talking about different types of farming.

MP10 Keeps2 no elite farm can be done for very cheap. However, that same gearset/weapon (probably skorn if talking about cheapest option) wont necessarily get it done for mp10 VOTA/KW act2 farm. Alkaizer runs are fastest with a different weapon combo.

As I mentioned above, if gold were unlimited, you could probably make a single set and do any kind of farm you want relatively quickly. The vast majority of users don't have that luxury.


I don't follow. People are skipping elites now?
I have been chasing DPS for since I started playing my barb again and now, even with 750k EHP I don't feel that is enough. I was happy in my act 3 world doing the same thing over and over until I started doing VOTA runs and starting dying. Those elites that are heavy with elemental damage are deadly. Now I am gearing back the other way I would like to get closer to 900k or so without dropping too much dps.
I think we are arguing about different things. I don't suggest that people go out and buy specific armor/weapons to deal with specific elite packs. I'm talking about different types of farming.

MP10 Keeps2 no elite farm can be done for very cheap. However, that same gearset/weapon (probably skorn if talking about cheapest option) wont necessarily get it done for mp10 VOTA/KW act2 farm. Alkaizer runs are fastest with a different weapon combo.

As I mentioned above, if gold were unlimited, you could probably make a single set and do any kind of farm you want relatively quickly. The vast majority of users don't have that luxury.


I don't follow. People are skipping elites now?


welcome to 1.0.7

I don't follow. People are skipping elites now?


You can do crater level 2 runs and kill only scorpions and earn 4m+ exp in two minutes or less on mp 10. As well it is supposed to be decent for legendaries.
I tried it for a few hours and was absolutely amazed by the amount of experience, loot and gold that I was getting. I'm still not even halfway to 100 yet, but I suspect that the majority of my second half is going to be obtained this way unless blizz completely changes the rewards of trash mobs.

I think we are arguing about different things. I don't suggest that people go out and buy specific armor/weapons to deal with specific elite packs. I'm talking about different types of farming.

MP10 Keeps2 no elite farm can be done for very cheap. However, that same gearset/weapon (probably skorn if talking about cheapest option) wont necessarily get it done for mp10 VOTA/KW act2 farm. Alkaizer runs are fastest with a different weapon combo.

As I mentioned above, if gold were unlimited, you could probably make a single set and do any kind of farm you want relatively quickly. The vast majority of users don't have that luxury.

There are different tools for different jobs. There is no single "best" gearset, even on an unlimited budget. Dual wield has its place, Skorn has its place, shield has its place.
I think we are arguing about different things. I don't suggest that people go out and buy specific armor/weapons to deal with specific elite packs. I'm talking about different types of farming.

MP10 Keeps2 no elite farm can be done for very cheap. However, that same gearset/weapon (probably skorn if talking about cheapest option) wont necessarily get it done for mp10 VOTA/KW act2 farm. Alkaizer runs are fastest with a different weapon combo.

As I mentioned above, if gold were unlimited, you could probably make a single set and do any kind of farm you want relatively quickly. The vast majority of users don't have that luxury.


I think we were arguing about different things. I put together 3 barb sets to multibox for 100m each. They all have DW using WW+RLTW and each had approx 5.5k armor, 550AR, 2.2 APS(fully buffed with WOTB), 5.5% LS(using bloodthirst) 50% CC with passives, and 45k health. I ran all three of them together from character creation to paragon 29. I fast levelled them in crater 2 mp 10 for the last 15 paragon levels and it works fantastically. I have since done a few upgrades to them and the main barb now has 158k dps with roughly the same other stats but It cost me about 500m to do.

These were inexpensive sets that were ideal for WW. I could sell their weapons and get skorns for higher paper dps but the build would not be as effective. IMO. many who use WW have geared with skorns to get the highest paper dps without putting much thought into exactly how the build works. Before you guys get mad and flame me for saying that, I do realize there are many who have skorns for HOTA first and still many more who got a great deal that could not be passed up but I think there are just as many who saw paper dps and nothing else.


Hey acrimony, I totally agree with this statement and it's exactly how I always try to gear. If there's even one elite that my build and gear struggle with, it bothers me enough to figure out how to deal with it. (Which most of the time means getting more defense)

I think this mentality, however, is also what caused you to get into so many conflicts with others. You were always a proponent of gearing better for the sake of gearing better. Unfortunately, the game doesn't reward this style very well. Even MP10 elites aren't very demanding in terms of gearing requirements, and there's plenty of hard proof that bothering to kill elites at all on high MP's is worthless from an efficiency standpoint. Even if you are killing elites, it's almost always more efficient to skip any of them that give you trouble.

The game is currently tuned in such a way that the less challenging the content is, the more rewarding it is.


My problem with others is that they think damage at the expense of defenses correlates with efficiency. I wish CaptAmerica, Vincecomen, and others I have played with still posted because they would tell everyone that I was always the last person standing and doing the most consistent damage. Even Google would admit to this; and he spent a lot of money on his gear.

I never understood why people want to be 'efficient' in Softcore. I can understand it in Hardcore because the meta-game is vastly different, but in Softcore, you're supposed to be gearing as well as you can so you can play any style you want. Hiding behind defensive buffs just limits your options (although I do think the passives could stand to be more diverse).

I'm not kidding when I say that if they rebuffed the Monster Power to its original state, the entire game changes for the better. People will recognize that it's not always about the damage you can give, but the consistency of it.

Just look at my Hardcore streams. I was killing everything at MP3 with records of 179 elite kills with anywhere between 60-75,000,000 experience per hour.

I share your preference that the "end-game" (whatever little of it there is) be being able to play the style I want and make it work on anything. That's much of the reason I went the Skorn route anyways, it's been a challenge to make it truly competitive with dual wield dtww on all fronts.

But for most people, the end-game is obtaining as much loot as possible, and to that end, efficiency is king.

04/02/2013 09:42 AMPosted by KillerElite
IMO. many who use WW have geared with skorns to get the highest paper dps without putting much thought into exactly how the build works. Before you guys get mad and flame me for saying that, I do realize there are many who have skorns for HOTA first and still many more who got a great deal that could not be passed up but I think there are just as many who saw paper dps and nothing else.

I agree with this completely. I see way too many newbies playing dtww with 1 APS Skorns and zero IAS on gear.
Well this is just further reinforcement to never come back to Softcore.
Great points in this thread overall. The short answer is 2H and DW have different strengths and there's not a best answer. It depends on how you play and what you do most as to which is better. You also should consider what is more 'fun' overall.

DW play involves a lot more key presses per second, since overpower refreshes very quickly and you need to spam battle rage to keep fury below cap. The play style is 'death by a thousand cuts.' You kill stuff with a flurry of blows and WotB can be maintained at lower MP than a Skorn setup of equal dps. You get so used to playing with WotB up that you base your survivability off of perma-wrath play. So when WotB falls, you usually will die very quickly - having lost the dps boost, dodge, and move speed.

2H is much slower overall and you do not spam skills as much. You also are forced into higher MP to maintain WotB with WW and HotA builds. Perm-WotB is not so easy to maintain with low IAS, so you will make gear decisions based on surviving without the buff, since a fair amount of time at mid/lower MP can be spent with WotB down. But, rend only gains 10% cc from WotB, and as it does a lot of your AoE damage as a 2H barb, loss of WotB is not a big deal until you face elites with crowd control affixes. It's annoying when you lose WotB, but your dps and life stolen per second does not plummet like it does for a DW/WW barb.

If you love the rend skill and killing stuff in one hit, go 2H barb. If you love frantic action and killing stuff with a flurry of blows, go DW barb. I moved to Skorn not for efficiency, but for something different vs DW. It immediately felt less stressful and less 'spammy.' You can farm just as fast as a dual wield barb, but only if you are using rend in your build. However, it turns out 2H WW is the highest dps output for farming trash monsters at high MP.

The "tdps" stat of DW vs. Skorn will almost always favor the DW setup. But it is not a complete picture of dps for doing AOE damage to a pack of whites. If you are trying to WW down an elite pack, the tdps stat will give a fair representation of in game dps, simply because you are always on that elite target, hitting with ww/sprint. If your focus is elite kills with a Skorn, you will have better results against elites with HotA.

If you are looking to clear masses of trash monsters in single pass fashion, "tdps" is not a complete picture of what is happening, and rend damage needs to be included. If I WW through a monster, after casting rend, the damage that monster sees is usually 3 seconds of stumbling inside 1 tornado, 2 ticks of WW before I am out of range, and 5 seconds of rend damage --
At 1.82 aps (ias skorn + 41% ias), you get 18 hits with a tornado at 20% damage each, 2 hits at 48.3% from WW, and then 700% bleed over 5 seconds.
Tornado: 18 x 20% = 360% weapon damage over 3 seconds
WW: 145% x 2/3 = 97% weapon damage
Rend: 700% weapon damage over 5 seconds

Total: 1157% weapon damage dealt to monster

Say you are at 26/30 ticks breakpoint (EF mainhand and sword offhand stat stick). You may hit a monster 4x with WW, one tornado for 3 seconds and one rend. WW alternates hands, but assume the sword is a stat stick with 80% the average damage of the EF.
Tornado: (30+26 ticks)/2 x 20% = 560% EF weapon damage over 3 seconds
WW: 145%/3 x (2 hits with main hand, 2 hits with offhand) = 174% EF weapon damage
Rend: 700% weapon damage over 5 seconds
Total: 1434% weapon damage dealt.

So, in the comparison above, assuming identical critical hit damage, cc, and strength, a 1350 average damage Skorn (1485 dps, 1.10 aps) would do the same trash monster dps as a 1090 average damage EF mace (1570 dps at 1.44 aps). The offhand at 80% damage of the EF mainhand would have listed dps of 1221 at 1.4 aps...
04/01/2013 11:54 PMPosted by PhatPhoEater
I have not been able to face tank mp10 elites in act2 without using rend when using hota. how do you do it without rend?


Your AR is way too low to do that. I've seen barbs face tank molten, desecrate, plague,arcane as they HOTA away. You need 650+ AR to do that. That means AR on jewellery and/or gloves. If you're running around having to kite when doing a HOTA build then you are doing it wrong. Your DPS is inefficient

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