The purpose of an ARPG

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A map editor is just about the best idea ever for this game. Even if you changed nothing else that would be a massive game fixer. It would address the one major thing that this game is lacking. CONTENT
Why do people keep trying to add complexity that shouldn't be there in a hack&slash/ARPG?!
More skills, more strategy, balanced pvp... what all of you are looking for is a (MMO)RPG, not D3. You're just playing the wrong game.

The whole purpose of a hack&slash is - you guessed it - to hack&slash; to be able to semi-turn your brain off and faceroll hordes of mobs in search for loot. The excitement should come from the loot you find, not from added complexity. And that's where D3 has a problem - the loot just isn't exciting. But I have high hopes for the itemisation fixes in the future.

So please, PLEASE, stop trying to make this game something it shouldn't be and maybe consider playing a different genre, more suited to your desires.


WoW......

They made D3 for you guy. Just for you
this is a stupid response but i agree with almost 100% the OP's points.
The only aspects of this game that brings players back are the blind hopes that a patch might make the game feel less boring. when non diablo 3 player look on they often say "really, you only play in the same area you already beat in played through so many times?" and than i think to my self.. " wow this game really has zero depth, its just a lottery game where the heads of monsters are the dice" I just really hope an expansion comes out soon. I doubt blizzard will ever listen to the community in terms of skill points. they took out everything that would have made this game a timeless classic and replaced it with gameplay that makes me feel like im a zombie or what my idea of a botter is xD
based off of a lot of things i have read, im not the only one who feels this way.
But im clearly not the one who decides what is going to be fun for me -_____- thats blizzards job.
Thats alot of text but some good points. I wish blizz would read some of these posts that gamers actually put time and thought into writing.


Read or respond to? We read a lot, we just don't respond to everything. We also don't necessarily agree with everything players suggest, but the discussions in and of themselves are super meaningful. :)

Diablo 3 challenges me on all fronts:

1. The most popular builds do not account for position. Barb WW builds, monk TR builds, and DH strafe builds are unaffected by pathing, and there are no environmental effects to consider, anywhere.
2. The key builds do not significantly consider the placement of skills. There is typically only one skill utilized, and that skill typically does massive AOE damage centered on the path of the player.
3. Complexity and speed do not change. The game does not alter fundamental mechanics between Normal and Inferno. Speed does not change. There is ONLY the scaling of damage and health, with the exception of a few monster affixes, most of which are not particularly strategic, but instant and automatic.


All solid points, and we agree on most fronts. Popular builds don't account for position or placement of skills, and we could do more to scale difficulty better. The conclusions you came to in terms of how we might address those pain points are different than the solutions we've considered, but it's totally understandable to see how you arrived at them.

Either way, this is a great discussion. I'm curious to see what other players think and have them weigh in on two points: 1) whether or not they agree with your premises and b) how they'd personally like to see the game evolve to improve on those areas.

Interested to see where this dialogue goes from here, so I'll be keeping an eye on the thread. (May not post much, but I'll definitely be reading along.)

Edit: Typos :(


Cough* Cough*
The points may be solid Cough*
But still it didnt have any pull to get me play this game at all...
Why bother going online...
GTA 5 in on its way, there are a lots of games out there that gonna pound this game to the ground.

There is nothing special about D3.
And time already proof to you guys early fanboys that defend this game.
That D3 has nothing special that can be remembered on your memory(unlike D2)
Some people that defended this game on 2012 are now starting to take back their own words...
And some simply goes offline for months..
Everything is standard and too simple, itemization is plain straight boring.
The simplicity of this game is mindblowing.
I dont even need to read any guides. Doesnt need to go to arreat summit like site to calculate what builds do i need, what items, what stats, anything,
Maybe next time they need to reduce harvest moon game into whack a mole for the sake of simplicity.
Builds, why even bother building your character, they are all jack of all trades.
Why even play.
There is just no drive at all for me to even play this game.
Seriously, this game is waning fast.
Diablo series is already dead for a of Diablo oldboys fans.
Well, to you guys new fanboys, i hope good luck on you clinging on this bland game.
If you young guys think that stats, itemization and stacking all those things are fun.
Well, time sure change everything to became simple and too simple on anything...
Its just too simple.
nothing attracts me at all.

And i began to question myself to the OP.
This kinda game attracts you....
My Diablo 3 friends are now began to play sims 3 seasons.
its just not enough drive to play this game at all.
The whole purpose of a hack&slash is - you guessed it - to hack&slash; to be able to semi-turn your brain off and faceroll hordes of mobs in search for loot. The excitement should come from the loot you find, not from added complexity. And that's where D3 has a problem - the loot just isn't exciting. But I have high hopes for the itemisation fixes in the future.

So please, PLEASE, stop trying to make this game something it shouldn't be and maybe consider playing a different genre, more suited to your desires.


I actually agree to this, with one BIG exception:

Pre-launch Blizzard stated over and over again that Diablo 3 would be super challenging. So THEY actually changed player's impressions of the game, which is also one of the reasons some people picked up D3 in the first place. So players who desired challenging content picked up D3 because of what Blizzard said.

So technically, it's Blizzard who created the impression that the game was meant to be challenging.

-----

So while hack&slash games are meant to be more or less faceroll, D3 wasn't meant or advertised to simply be a "hack&slash" game.

I never played D2 or other action RPGs. I was a WoW player and StarCraft player, and figured D3 would be like the ultimate test of skill because of Blizzards' hype on difficulty pre-release. Turned out the game at launch took about as little skill as smurfing in Platinum league, and just went down to where it's more faceroll than smurfing in Bronze league.

I mean it turns out I still played more than 1000 hours of D3, and still play the game. However, it never was the advertised super challenging experience that they hyped pre-release. Basically I've still found the game to be fun in it's own way, even though it completely missed the hype on challenge - which is the reason I wanted to play D3 so much before launch in the first place.
The whole purpose of a hack&slash is - you guessed it - to hack&slash; to be able to semi-turn your brain off and faceroll hordes of mobs in search for loot. The excitement should come from the loot you find, not from added complexity. And that's where D3 has a problem - the loot just isn't exciting. But I have high hopes for the itemisation fixes in the future.

So please, PLEASE, stop trying to make this game something it shouldn't be and maybe consider playing a different genre, more suited to your desires.


I actually agree to this, with one BIG exception:

Pre-launch Blizzard stated over and over again that Diablo 3 would be super challenging. So THEY actually changed player's impressions of the game, which is also one of the reasons some people picked up D3 in the first place. So players who desired challenging content picked up D3 because of what Blizzard said.

So technically, it's Blizzard who created the impression that the game was meant to be challenging.

-----

So while hack&slash games are meant to be more or less faceroll, D3 wasn't meant or advertised to simply be a "hack&slash" game.

I never played D2 or other action RPGs. I was a WoW player and StarCraft player, and figured D3 would be like the ultimate test of skill because of Blizzards' hype on difficulty pre-release. Turned out the game at launch took about as little skill as smurfing in Platinum league, and just went down to where it's more faceroll than smurfing in Bronze league.

I mean it turns out I still played more than 1000 hours of D3, and still play the game. However, it never was the advertised super challenging experience that they hyped pre-release. Basically I've still found the game to be fun in it's own way, even though it completely missed the hype on challenge - which is the reason I wanted to play D3 so much before launch in the first place.


You should try play D2.
Your experience as a wow player helps you endure D3 because they are similar.
But if you are a Diablo series player (from D1 and D2 LoD) youll notice that D3 was boring.
For most D2 vets, this game is boring to death.
05/05/2013 07:25 AMPosted by WhiteBootz
Your experience as a wow player helps you endure D3 because they are similar.


I actually find WoW incredibly different, though I was a pretty competitive player in WoW. Mostly a PvP'er, though I did raiding in a top100 guild for about a year as well.

The thing with WoW is it's a team based game, completely opposite of D3 which turned out to be mainly solo stuff. WoW also gave us gearing options, where we get a main stat, and sort of choose between different off stats. Meanwhile D3 sort of lets us get all the good stats. WoW was also fairly PvP focused, where Blizzard wanted it to be an eSport, while D3 pretty much has no PvP. I actually feel the 2 games are about as different as it gets ~_~

I actually wish Blizzard had more WoW-like features. Things like gearing choices, transmog, reforging, and rated PvP are some of the things I really wish Blizzard could have implemented in D3.
Your experience as a wow player helps you endure D3 because they are similar.


I actually find WoW incredibly different, though I was a pretty competitive player in WoW. Mostly a PvP'er, though I did raiding in a top100 guild for about a year as well.

The thing with WoW is it's a team based game, completely opposite of D3 which turned out to be mainly solo stuff. WoW also gave us gearing options, where we get a main stat, and sort of choose between different off stats. Meanwhile D3 sort of lets us get all the good stats. WoW was also fairly PvP focused, where Blizzard wanted it to be an eSport, while D3 pretty much has no PvP. I actually feel the 2 games are about as different as it gets ~_~

I actually wish Blizzard had more WoW-like features. Things like gearing choices, transmog, reforging, and rated PvP are some of the things I really wish Blizzard could have implemented in D3.


Well if you play D2, youll find D3 was also incredibly different.
Diablo 3 are supposed to be different from WoW.
WoW stats and itemization are too simple, but the other aspect of WoW is very complex.
They are not projected isometricly, They have huge maps, huge dungeons, strange and weird things to do. fishing, anything, it felt like an open world that have many strange things to do.
Making the same simplification on stats points, skills points, builds swapping jack of all trades and itemization is a fatal mistake on D3.
And like you said, WoW has forging, rated PVP, and more.
This makes WoW simplification on stats and itemization are endurable because there is just a lot of things you can do on WoW.
Because it will just make Diablo too simple. Because Diablo was not WoW.
Diablo gameplay was not as diverse as WoW did, It cant go fishing, climb mountains, mine gold, riding airship, having pets battling each other, jumping from mountain peak, jumping from airship and even Diablo maps are linear.
We just cant treat Diablo like WoW.
This is not a WoW, thats why this game should not be treated like WoW.
In D2 People dont chase for max level, they played it soo much that they didnt even realized that they are already at level 95+.
i think it would be cool if monster density varies with monster power
Bit late to the party, just wanted to respond to this:

1. The most popular builds do not account for position. Barb WW builds, monk TR builds, and DH strafe builds are unaffected by pathing, and there are no environmental effects to consider, anywhere.
2. The key builds do not significantly consider the placement of skills. There is typically only one skill utilized, and that skill typically does massive AOE damage centered on the path of the player.
3. Complexity and speed do not change. The game does not alter fundamental mechanics between Normal and Inferno. Speed does not change. There is ONLY the scaling of damage and health, with the exception of a few monster affixes, most of which are not particularly strategic, but instant and automatic.


As a Demon Hunter, we have a lot of skills/runes (eg: Grenades, Chakram etc) which have deadzones and which need to take environmental factors into account. Grenades don't do very well near ledges/cliffs (they fall off = zero damage), or when thrown up/down elevation, (up stairs: reduced range due to gravity, down stairs: miss target by a mile). Chakram has a predetermined flight path (must reposition character to aim, horrible against moving targets), fares abysmally in tunnel areas (terminates at walls). Cluster Arrow's grenades have the same problems as the Grenades skill (Strafe + Demolition rune as well) and the small AOE radius mean they miss often. On the flip side some DH skills fare better in corners/doorways/tunnel areas or near walls (eg: Cluster Grenades, Spike Trap + Scatter).

Basically a lot of headache just to get attacks to connect. It makes for very annoying gameplay as many of your attacks miss; you waste more time trying to kill single mobs than you do large packs. I guess what I'm getting at is environment seems to be more an issue for ranged than melee (as it should be, I guess). Some elite affixes favor compact/tunnel areas (teleporter/ranged mobs (restricted flee paths)), most don't (zone denial effects (arcane/plagued/molten/frozen), waller, mortar (shots cluster at walls)). Example being the Act 3 keywarden; very annoying to target as he teleports constantly but lure him onto a staircase and he's fishfood.

I also wouldn't go around touting the DH Strafe build as an example of bad design, it doesn't do very well at mid-high MP and jailer/vortex ruins your day (WW Barbs are immune to vortex for some reason).
someone should just make a post called letter to the editor if they havint already lol i see why they changed inferno cause they wanted to make it so everyone could play on it and put monster power in its place cause i notice for those that dont wanna play inferno they cant progress with level ups and that makes people wanna quit more games now a days need to have a balance of fun and challenge and approach ability if you want a good challenging game that has all three try these lol

1. demonsouls
2. darksouls

cant wait for the sequal to darksouls saw it it looked epic

you even get some monsters that kill you in one shot if you arent careful and dont got the resistances in the first game one of the bosses actually drains your level you lose a level up lol


Yes I love Demon/dark Souls, I really didnt completely get those games at first but when I did I sunk in some major league hours into them. I also like D3 a lot, yeah there are some major improvements that I would like to see made but I still like the game. Its not an MMO so you cant necessarily 700 hours of enjoyable gameplay out of it. But completing inferno with a couple characters is surely worth the money you paid for it.
05/05/2013 08:55 PMPosted by 蘇冬冬
i think it would be cool if monster density varies with monster power


I also kind of agree with this. And I was wondering if Monster Density will only apply to Inferno? Or are all difficulties getting them.
i think now Diablo3 is not because build or skills problem, is the game problem.
It's boring when we upgrade, but HC is funny, system replace us too much things, such as skill points, why can not add points by ourself, i think guys really need to play Diablo2 again, you will found Diablo2 is more funny than Diablo3.
05/05/2013 10:02 PMPosted by Crawler
i think it would be cool if monster density varies with monster power


I also kind of agree with this. And I was wondering if Monster Density will only apply to Inferno? Or are all difficulties getting them.


Only applies to MP1+.
I think when people complain about the game, and talk about how it failed as an ARPG, they are talking about the depth and deep experimentation and long-term playability that good ARPGs provide.

A lot of the counter-arguments are based around the fact that the game is absolutely amazing for the 1st 1-300 hours. And for a lot of gamers, that makes the game a resounding success. The game also supports players who venture off to other games, and come back to D3, because everytime they pick up the game and play it for a few days/weeks, it provides an incredible experience.

The problem is, an ARPG should not only satisfy the occasional gamer, but also provide a massive amount of depth, customization, challenge, and long-term playability for those who want to only play it. The fact is, after the campaigns, and you start regularly farming Inferno, the game quickly dried up. Even making a 60 of every class does little to satisfy the long term itch for several reasons:

- There is zero incentive to make more than 5 characters.
- There is very little incentive to have more than 1 main which all characters feed, reducing the replayability on your other 4 characters.
- Once you have your 5 characters, the gameplay is not different between the 5, there are no options available to do anything but farm.
- Their are no tiered levels of content, other than MP level which is a very dry, boring way to increase the challenge.
- Their is a severe lack of complexity with skills and "builds" because once you have a class to 60, you have zero distinction between you and every other player out there. You can pick up someone elses character, and do exactly the same thing yours does, with a few modifications to gear which are trivial because of the AH.

The bottom line, there is no incentive to invest any significant amount of time into a character, other than to slowly gain money through the AH to make insignificant purchases on the AH for minor DPS gains. None of the legendaries, or improvements to gear as you invest time ever change your playstyle, or approach to the game.

You can choose to play a different build, but this only keeps people interested for so long, because the options are not meaningful when you don't have to committ to them, or put any effort into changing your character.

A good ARPG will allow players who want to dedicate a massive amount of time more options within the game than they can possibly achieve. This is done through interesting gear choices, meaningful choices related to skill selection and "builds", increasingly complex trade and craft systems, and content within the game that varies in both diversity of playstyle and challenge. Diablo 3 is devoid of these things. Which drives away a large portion of the playerbase. That playerbase is generally the ones who will keep the game fresh through streams, Clan websites, Fansites, and big name players being active in the community.

But Diablo3 is still a top 10 game, so Blizzard does not consider these types of players important, because there are enough casual players, and die-hard hardcore Diablo players that keep the business model going.

The best thing a "hardcore" ARPG fan can do, is pick up POE to satisfy your obsession with depth, complexity and challenges of an ARPG, but keep D3 installed so you can come back and experience the most fluid, mechanically sound, well-made ARPGs of all time. And accept the fact that after you get the raw, visceral gameplay out of your system, the game is empty, and your better off going back to POE.

Thats what I am doing, and I am having fun. Currently playing a DH as self-found hardcore. Once I get bored, I'll go back and remake my Freeze Pulse Witch who recently RIP'd at 62 to a flicker strike pack. The best of both worlds.....
I agree with the author. However, I play a DH and all I do with it is stand in one spot and shoot. My strategic skills are all about keeping my resources up so I can continue to stay alive and kill the mobs. Which isn't much fun but I have so much time invested....

For example, my primary attack I use for no other reason than to fuel my attack that can actually kill. 1-2 of my passives are for resource generation and 2 of my hotbar skills are resource generation as well. The other two hotbar skills are a passive dps bonus and my ONLY option for self healing being shadow power.

That said I originally played the DH because I wanted the toolbox of traps and maneuvers and got the exact opposite. Not to mention I felt like starting a new character would sacrifice my time and gold investment. I mean my dex mempo does not work as well for my barb as the old shako would have.

So in short, the two problems players are faced with is the lack of gear interchangeability and bad skill design / proc rates. I am sure the main stat stuff on gear will never change so lets focus on the second. Each class needs to be able to get its life and casting resource from multiple sources. If the players are given many options to achieve the same goal they will do so.

What is it the classes need? Life steal, casting resources, and damage control. Give us options and watch the diversity explode.
Regarding an editor, it sounds as if PS3 D3 is offline, implying the entirety of the server code is client side, which could maybe be used by some enterprising people to reverse engineer a server? Hopefully this opens up the potential for mods.

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