The purpose of an ARPG

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My view of this topic differs from Lylirra.
I think a good arpg teaches you a bit about yourself.

Magic the Gathering, years ago, I learned that I'm Blue-Green to a fault. I learned alot about what I prefer, & at the end of the day my highlander deck is me in a box & different from anyone else. Is it better? No. More powerful? No. Fun & customized? Yes.

Agreed. (my Warhammer 40,000 is slow, non meta, and stubborn as all hell. And i love it).
I agree the problem is blizzard completely missed the point of challenge in an ARPG. In the original inferno, the "challenge" was just make every monster 1 shot the player. That's not challenge. Unavoidable monster affixes are not challenge, they are frustration.

Monster affix Jailer, should have been like diablo's jail effect imo. Avoidable but punishing. Take a leaf from the encounter designers over at WoW, at least that's something they do very well.
04/30/2013 08:43 PMPosted by Noxifer
The purpose of a Hack and Slash RPG (please stop calling it ARPG, this is a BS made up term...) or any game in general is to be a time killer.

Please stop calling it a hack and slash RPG. This is a made up BS term. The correct term is, 'advanced modernized roguelike role playing game'.
It amazes me how many feel this way, & yet the blue's & dev's alike can't fathom it...
Truly regretable.

No game can please everyone. you pick a particular crowd and try to appeal to them. Warhammer itself is a testament to that mentality.
I agree with you 100% I loved blizzard games ever since I played Starcraft.

When I played the demo I was hooked. I never played the other Diablo games but that didnt matter.

I read these forums every single day and know every single thing that players want. The weird thing is many times its not what I want. When I beat normal and went to nightmare I was greatly disappointing. I thought I was going to see different enemies, or the same enemies but with different skills, or the same enemies and skills but smarter AI. All I noticed was increased numbers. Same with skills. I expected to build on the runes. Why cant I increase the radius of a skill? Why cant I increase the distance of a skill? Not numbers. I really wanted challenge. I thought Blizzard was going to make this game like chess, just like they do with all their other games. One skill maybe weak against one monster but strong against another, or others. I also thought there was going to be strategy in what monster I kill first second and third. I thought that my combination of skills against a screen full of enemies and their combination of skills would result in a chess match. Just like Starcraft, or Warcraft. Everything can be countered. But in this game nothing counters DPS. Everyone wants new gear or skills or classes or maps. Why? We already know exactly how to kill everything. What I want is a game, not a farm.

I have recently found some fun in Hardcore and the new mob density update is interesting. Besides that Im hoping something will be added to make me actually think while playing this game - I mean farm.
04/30/2013 09:00 PMPosted by Noxifer
Hack and Slash RPG was the term used to define games such Classic Diablo, Diablo2, Nox

by who?

You know these terms are all made up and subjective. When I played Diablo 1, the groups I interacted with called it a roguelike - only roguelikes were turn based, so it was more 'action' oriented.

Genres are rarely neat and tidy.
Diablo 3 challenges me on all fronts:

1. The most popular builds do not account for position. Barb WW builds, monk TR builds, and DH strafe builds are unaffected by pathing, and there are no environmental effects to consider, anywhere.
2. The key builds do not significantly consider the placement of skills. There is typically only one skill utilized, and that skill typically does massive AOE damage centered on the path of the player.
3. Complexity and speed do not change. The game does not alter fundamental mechanics between Normal and Inferno. Speed does not change. There is ONLY the scaling of damage and health, with the exception of a few monster affixes, most of which are not particularly strategic, but instant and automatic.

This is all really true once you reach a certain gear level. It's not true out of the gate or as you're gearing up; you need pretty good stuff to be able to do this, and especially if you want to do it on anything above mp2.

I think the bigger problem is that build diversity in general is really bad. This is tied into both the ease of acquiring gear that changes skills (e.g. -cost to disintegrate gear) and then some fundamental design problems with skills / runes.

If you want to use a lot of abilities then you have to have turbo gear, at which point it doesn't really matter what you use because you can just steamroll anyways.
Diablo 3 made a significant departure from Diablo 1&2. That departure was in the direction of significantly simplified gameplay. The explanation for that new direction (at least as I hear it) is to appeal to casual gamers.

Both previous titles were not as hard as others are making them out to be. In fact they were only a wee bit harder than this game. The only time they were hard to us is when we were new. But that is true for any game you play. It will be hard for you for a little while, that is until you get your feet wet and learn the ropes of the game. When you have enough game experience then the game becomes easy.
04/30/2013 09:04 PMPosted by Goodbrew
Hack and Slash RPG was the term used to define games such Classic Diablo, Diablo2, Nox

by who?

You know these terms are all made up and subjective. When I played Diablo 1, the groups I interacted with called it a roguelike - only roguelikes were turn based, so it was more 'action' oriented.

Genres are rarely neat and tidy.

+1. Most importantly, all the trade press called D1/D2 ARPG. And internally that's what most blizzard employees used.
04/29/2013 07:55 AMPosted by coodav
2. Take some of Droth's advice, and alter the cheapest monster affixes.

04/29/2013 07:55 AMPosted by coodav
5. Improve monster AI and complexity with level.

I vote for these two solutions to be implemented ASAP.
The main problem i have with the "challenge" of this game isn't a real challenge, its just poorly-designed mechanics:


Particularly Vortex. What a stupid mechanic.

And why does Knockback have a slow effect in addition to being a pain in the butt as it already is? I wouldn't have so much a problem with knockback as I do if the slow was removed.

My problem with these 3 mechanics is that they are unavoidable. They literally punish the player...for absolutely no reason at all.

Remove those 3 abilities from Elites, add abilities that require the player to think and act intelligently, and you've got a good start.
This is a pretty solid thread. Especially agree with the cheap meaningless mob affix part.

All i can say, is D2 did real well by making use of the elements each uniquely. D3, meh, not so much,.
Dearest Lylirra, please read my two responses to your above specified topics of discussion


I read his sentence over and over and over trying to form a discussion about the point he was making. the three example builds chosen are not the most popular. Strafe is so PAINFULLY under-utilized in sharp contrast to how cool it looks that it really is disheartening. Tempest Rush and WW Barb are comparable. they are fiercely efficient and “Farming” I hate that word...and I would agree that they are super popular. Then he continues; That typically one skill is utilized, in our example TR or WW then “buffed” with other skills and passives. From then on it is autopilot. Use the mouse button to coast through monsters and vacuum up rewards. When he says complexity and speed do not change the entire rant makes perfect sense. the issue is that these skills just plow through everything. they seem to take too little effort and too little time to be able to sustain indefinitely

I DISAGREE. in a particular way. but it is not about who is right or wrong it is about as you hint, promotion of thought and discussion.

My counter argument is that what I mentioned above ( the strongish feeling of WW and TR), that should be the goal, and the game must be created and stretched LOOOOOOOOOONG around that goal. Because it represents dominance over an adversary through hopefully a long and dedicated training process it occurs. in other words give that immense power after slogging through a long large journy with heaps of grace.

its up to the developers to creatively mask portions of the formulas and equations so that you the player wants to seek out the feeling of power, not the decimal number that equals power.

its also up to the developers to make this journey long. and daunting. as is the case with most semi advanced hardcore RPGs. It's a bit of a black art.

As much as I hate to use this game as a comparison yet again, Path of exile, I can visualize the entire span of my characters growth and how long and slow it will be to get to a very high level. more importantly i can feel the ULTRA slow creep up in strength.

I feel that yes TR and WW are simplistic and may grow old quickly. but the simplicity is accentuated if that gift of "easy killing speed" is given to fast, which I fear at the end of the day may have been. Strafe on the other hand is a complete joke. it is woefully underpowered and underused and needs to be overhauled 3 months ago. I tried DESPERATELY and repeatedly to make it work and use it, but I was only hampering my character build. Its damage was just to low. I have not tried it for many months.


At first glance I believe that the focus on something so specific (character positioning) is kind of wasteful. The first thing that comes to my mind is how does combat FEEL. As soon as you truly think this way you realize that their is no difference between a glitch in the environments or an AOE slowing/rooting effect. its not yet relevant. Try to stay with me on this point; IF you were really in a real fight, and a monster cast a giant root spell that tangled your footing while you were trying to run, the disadvantage would be much the same as if you tried to do some wild spinning move with your crossbow. you would not. Thats the point that must be made. it would boil down to your physical brain controlling your physical body. envision what you would ACTUALLY DO. please stay with me on this. Envision how fluid your body would be told to move through its space with your brain. walking running jumping, athletic ability aside, these moves require no thought. they just happen. your legs just move and you process those required movements without thinking about them.

-----------Well in a video game world this is the goal.

Does anyone think that the time a strafe animation starts up is the same time it takes to quickly lift your knee up? This amount of brain request to body response was the yardstick. even without knowing it was.

----erase the line between what you want the character to do and what the character does.----

Take Diablo 3 for instance. put a video of it in your mind. obviously the power and impact of the attacks are there. its not realistic. but the main point is that it feels natural. the strength feels natural
it starts at your brain move the mouse cursor which is responsive, track it with your eye, good refresh rate on the screen, good stop on the mouse cursor position, TINY finger press, which immediately gets registered on the tiny hard clicking mouse button, no delay the signal is sent, the code is altered the animation is altered and the animations and the code have been beautifully crafted, by your feels really quality. and that whole above sentence I just wrote happens MANY times over and over in quick succession during play. good job

thats the main goal. It comes before slowing effects and positioning and monster variety and item strength etc etc.

This is the very tip of the iceberg on how I feel to remedy the situation and calm the nerves of the countless forum banshees......

my wife is going to kill me soon. its 10:45. i have to go. thanks and good night

I really want to yap about this more and more each day...even though I am at times so pissed off at the game I want to just cry my 32 year old eyes right out of their sockets.....SO much gets lost in the translation from thought to text.....


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