The purpose of an ARPG

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My view of this topic differs from Lylirra.
I think a good arpg teaches you a bit about yourself.

Magic the Gathering, years ago, I learned that I'm Blue-Green to a fault. I learned alot about what I prefer, & at the end of the day my highlander deck is me in a box & different from anyone else. Is it better? No. More powerful? No. Fun & customized? Yes.

I love Diablo, & I have for many years, but...What does D3 teach me about myself?

How are my heros different(more me)?

What choices have I made that have been both rewarding & made me think, wow, I really do prefer (x) over more power?

This imho, is the most important way this Diablo has fallen short of the series. I still like this game, although I miss my old Diablo friends who've all given up on it.
gl hf
Pray Rob P hires a qualified director that's in tune w/ the fanbase.

Great post!
1. Give the community an editor.
2. Take some of Droth's advice, and alter the cheapest monster affixes.
3. Remove the ability to path through monsters.
4. Increase game speed.
5. Improve monster AI and complexity with level.

Fixes 5, 4 & 2, are the fixes I feel would have the greatest positive affect on the game that are not too unrealistic.
Improving monster AI, speed and complexity with level, would make progression feel much more worthwhile and give us a wonderful sense of achievement.

Fix #3 would likely render some skills less than useful. I feel that whirl-winding layers of monsters, instead of through a whole mob, would not be fun.

Fix #1... Well... I hate the fact that this game is online only. Giving the players an editor, would have the result of an offline mode. So while I'm all for it, (great fix, may save this decaying game), I know it won't happen. Far too many variables for my mediocre size brain to comprehend.

Thanks for the post, OP. I like where this discussion could eventually lead.
The purpose of a Hack and Slash RPG (please stop calling it ARPG, this is a BS made up term...) or any game in general is to be a time killer. And may be, just may be for the player to have some fun along the way :P
But in many cases it's up to the player to make the experience enjoyable.

I think we're all calling it an ARPG because people don't know what a hack-and-slash or beat-em-up role playing game is.. I do.. others do.. but lots just don't.. I bet some have never even heard that term until now.. not a lot but some..

You know these terms are all made up and subjective. When I played Diablo 1, the groups I interacted with called it a roguelike - only roguelikes were turn based, so it was more 'action' oriented.

Eh, I had heard of all these terms except rogue-like.. are you referring to fallout when you say that term? *confused*
If they brought back 45% more mp10 damage when it first dropped you have to pay attention to posotioning. Many things would 1-2 shot you so you had to be crafty approaching spearmen and such. Go do mp10 belial - some reason he escaped the nerf bat so you better watch poison bombs.

This is more or less what I was trying to illustrate in the "Challenge" section of my Salvation of Diablo 3 thread...

...though I have to say that you said certain things better than me. You made great points and I think you're absolutely right on just about all fronts.

The only place I disagree is in the removal of player ability to path through monsters. I believe that change would be nothing more than the easy way out to fix a problem that requires something much more creative in order to become effective.

One of the main problems with this game is not the fact that builds like WW/Sprint, TR, and Strafe exist, it's that they are only so powerful because of the design of the flow of combat and the fact that there are little to no competitive alternatives. What many people don't realize is that literally thousands of builds would be capable of reaching similar if not greater efficiency given some serious redesigning and buffing of skills and itemization.

These builds don't need to be frowned upon, they have actually assisted tremendously in setting the standard for efficiency in this game. Unfortunately, fixing these problems isn't as simple as fixing just one thing. In order to properly address the issues at hand, itemization, skills/runes, and monster design will all need serious redesigning.

Monsters in this game, for the most part, don't ever force players to change their behaviors. This is why these super efficient builds exist to begin with. Players have found ways to circumvent almost every single challenge the game can throw at you. Instead of figuring out ways to deal with an occurrence, players simply gear and build to avoid said occurrence. There are a few areas in the game that make utter circumvention impossible but I'm too tired to dive into it right now. All I'll say is that it IS possible and I don't even believe it to be that difficult of a fix.

By fixing the challenge issue, you are 20 steps closer to achieving ARPG greatness. Next comes itemization and class/skill design. See my Salvation of Diablo 3 thread for how to fix those problems.

@Lylirra Please give my thread a read if you haven't and give it another read if you've only read it once. I really don't understand why Blizzard couldn't increase the response maximum of the thread. It hit max pages in less than a week... You guys really need to give that thread and the ideas/suggestions in it some SERIOUS consideration. 99% of the responses where overwhelmingly in favor of my ideas and I can honestly say that I've never seen that happen before (or anything even close). Seriously, take my advice.
04/30/2013 09:16 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
Both previous titles were not as hard as others are making them out to be. In fact they were only a wee bit harder than this game. The only time they were hard to us is when we were new. But that is true for any game you play. It will be hard for you for a little while, that is until you get your feet wet and learn the ropes of the game. When you have enough game experience then the game becomes easy.

This is correct, but the previous two titles, especially after expansions or mods were made, had much more depths and not much but somewhat of an end game.. Diablo 3 has none of this and it has been a year and considering the failure its launch was and slow it has been to improve over this year.. it is high time for a major patch for free that lays the groundwork for an expansion to come soon thereafter.. and *if* this major patch actually looked good and like it laid such ground work.. I'd consider buying the expansion.. and lets be clear here.. marketing teams be damned.. I do not care if they want the expansion to be a surprise. Blizzard has lost trust with Diablo 3's launch and slow progress since then (poor pr/relations, still bugs, still lacking game, still no true or even basic pvp, just 'brawling')... So, they must do something to re-earn our trust as consumers. How? By giving us a glimpse of the Expansion through a major patch that lays the groundwork for it and discussion/videos etc showing us previews of it... this will
(a) show us that an expansion is being worked upon (or already has been)..
(b) show us whether or not the expansion is going to be good (and if so get us excited for it)..
(c) show us they actually give a damn about us fans..

I bought Diablo 3 sight unseen.. assuming from previous experience that it would be good or great.. I assumed wrong.. I won't be buying Diablo 3.5 or 4 without some sort of preview, groundwork laid or something to give me a sense of how good it will be and if it will make up for what is so lacking in current Diablo 3..

Do you think many others buy without some assurance of quality and fun after the mistake made so far on this game?

Heck, I think they should give us an expansion for free as an apology to be honest. But then, I understand this is not likely financially doable.. Still, they could give us a free mega patch that transitions to the expansion.. and if it gets me excited enough, I'd then buy the expansion to reward Blizzard for their hard work and because they would have regained enough of my trust for me to do this..

..and no, thus far, I don't consider any of these patches to have been significant enough improvements to count as what I'm talking about.. you'd think they would have been given they time they had for each patch, but no.. they were improvements, but not significant enough in my view.. and I believe the views of many others as well.. the Diablo 3 team, can and ought to do better (assuming Acti-Blizzard ever allows it).

I could keep going but I'm obviously rambling at this point and should stop for now.

Night all,

04/30/2013 05:58 PMPosted by Lylirra
The game does not alter fundamental mechanics between Normal and Inferno.

Since D3 borrowed so much from WoW (namely, itemization, albeit without the guaranteed stats on WoW named items) go one further, with bosses.

Namely, don't just up boss stats between difficulties, add to their AI and move-set as well, like the difference between heroic and non-heroic bosses in WoW. You've already done this for the Ubers, do something similar for the various difficulties. If 1.09 really is going to introduce the ability to actually farm for SPECIFIC legendaries, this can only increase the re-playability. The current difficulties are fine; add to the variability!

That being said, we need more variability in rare/champions as well. More affixes would be nice, and more distinction other than total number of affixes per difficulty levels; each difficulty level from normal up should have a larger pool of affixes to draw from.

Beyond that, random-quest bosses are pretty much okay but World Uniques are boring. Easy fights, rare/champion loot. Up the difficulty of them, and up the loot drop. IE Inferno World Uniques should be on par or harder than Inferno keymasters, with more loot. (Keymasters are okay as-is because their perk is that they CAN drop keys.)
04/30/2013 05:58 PMPosted by Lylirra
Interested to see where this dialogue goes from here

What is lacking is the RPG element in this game. As OP says its 'one size fits all', end the result we have now is the lack of freedom and choice. 9 skills active maximum with no ability to specialise on the build of your choice (stat/skill points ala D2) while having the ability to use any other skill should you want to.

e.g. I would like to use a weak version of Rain of Vengeance or a very powerful version of Fan of Knives (resource/Hatred permitting) so long as it doesn't take up a skill slot (D2 had infinite skill slots, unlocked only if you want to spend a skill point on it)

In D3, the fact 'Elective mode' is not the default setting, very much defines the whole game.


OP's point number 3 - "ONLY the scaling of damage and health, with the exception of a few monster affixes, most of which are not particularly strategic, but instant and automatic." cannot be more true - cooldowns, resurrection timers, reflect damage on/off, vortex, jailer, shielding on/off, nightmarish, movie cutescenes, it's become a waiting game. Strategy or any sort of thinking/planning involved is not present in D3.
Here is my number one point I would like to make here; This game alone "As of the end of 2012, it had sold more than 12 million copies.[5] As of March 2013, Blizzard stated that Diablo III had around 1 million daily players, with 3 million unique players each month."
These figures have obviously changed as of late, but lets look at THE picture here. Low market game developers, would KILL to have a fraction of these sales figures. This is not a labor of love, in fact, from the first day of sales, they could of used that ALONE to fund a full development team for over a decade and still come out with a nickle for their grandma. I don't want to seem like a troll, but compared to the majority of the worlds game developers, Blizzard is mathematically producing less content for revenue, by A LONG SHOT, and the process of their development seems painstakingly, and very unnecessarily long for what is actually being accomplished. A fraction of these sales, should of been enough to justify regular content updates. So what is there to point a finger at? The lack of love for working on Diablo? Has Blizzard's pockets started to weigh them down? Is there some big head haunch bottle necking good ideas? Who knows... All I know for sure, is if I had that kind of money, or if any game developer had that kind of money (the record breaking sales kind), and the future of this title was in my hands, I would not be wasting one second making this the best game I possibly could. Hell, I wouldn't even ask for money, the idea of working on this game is better than any vacation money could buy. Though, that is probably where this project fell short. This was not a labor of love, it was a labor of demand. Not only demand from us consumers, but the demand from a much scarier, higher up place. I have no further objections.
(...) the hope and want for an editor, but D1 and D2 didn't have one (...)

I must disagree on that. Search for "diablo 2 editor download" on google and you will see. Some work fine, some not that good. I used some in D2 for some skill corrections (sometimes is good to correct wrong developments, skill points were important), and what I can say, as far as I noticed, they were softwares developed elsewhere. Why they could work with that design ? Game was offline, no data stored on a server. So, on Blizzard developing and delivering an editor, as suggested, seems to me they only way now to make somethings you could do before with D2.
04/29/2013 07:55 AMPosted by coodav
2. Take some of Droth's advice, and alter the cheapest monster affixes

04/29/2013 07:55 AMPosted by coodav
5. Improve monster AI and complexity with level.

These ideas sound nice. I tend to disagree with almost everything else you said. imo there is nothing wrong with no clipping skills. If people want to run cheese builds like those that's fine. Choice is king. Change those monster affixes and remove CC immunity from Wrath = Problem solved. Oh yeah and remove or reduce cooldown of Leap.
04/29/2013 07:55 AMPosted by coodav
1. Give the community an editor.

This is the most important thing imo. More content. Blizzard is unable to put out content fast enough to keep the community happy. I feel like the speed with which we are seeing patches is out of character for Blizzard, and I would speculate that the lack of agility is due to console development. I imagine there is a lot of analysis they have to do to make sure something they change on the PC will be viable on the console.

To be clear, I do not mean to insult the developers' skill in any way by saying this; I am just not happy with the end result (slow development). I am sure that if the fans had a way of creating content on their own, we would be seeing many maps & mods.
04/30/2013 09:04 PMPosted by Goodbrew
Hack and Slash RPG was the term used to define games such Classic Diablo, Diablo2, Nox

by who?

You know these terms are all made up and subjective. When I played Diablo 1, the groups I interacted with called it a roguelike - only roguelikes were turn based, so it was more 'action' oriented.

Genres are rarely neat and tidy.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Also, as much as I love D3, I'd like the series to come back to its rogue-like roots. Less monsters, less drops, more random and all about using your wits to try to overcome the odds.
Perhaps the game needs some "soft" CC and some "hard" CC.

"Soft" CC would consist of unavoidable CC such as Nightmarish, Jailer, Knockback, etc.
"Hard" CC would consist of avoidable CC such as Frozen (Sadly, there isn't many).

Crowd Control immunity should grant you "immunity" against "soft" CC only. Whether WotB is on or not, Frozen will still freeze you unless you dodge it.

Reduce the damage of unavoidable attack and abilities (usually basic attack from the monster) but increase the damage of avoidable damage, depending on how easy it can be dodged. Slow projectile should hurt a lot while fast projectile should hurt less.

IMO, that would be a good start.

I like the idea, except your Soft and Hard CC's seem mixed up. Shouldn't Hard CC be unavoidable, not the Soft CC.
Also the terms Hard/Soft make no sense.
In game like Diablo Greater/Lesser seems more appropriate to the lore and genre; Like a Lesser Deity, or a Greater Deity. Or to be 100% lore friendly, Lesser/Prime CC would make sense, people may say this stuff doesn't matter, it changes how you view the game. It shows how much thought the dev's put into the game, and also makes it easier to leran/remember.

Also bring back Invulnerable minions please. I miss them, and cannot fathom why people didn't like fighting them... At this point it would be a nice return.
If the game has easy content as the standard, that's fine. However, I don't see why Blizzard is so against having OPTIONAL challenging content.

This was the initial premise of the MP levels: A system that allowed the player to determine his difficulty in order to keep people somewhat happy with the way difficulty was handled instead an unforgiving approach like the original inferno. Then people started crying about being too weak to tackle higher MP levels, so stuff got buffed out of control, specially gear, and now people are complaining again because they are bored with MP10. This is just amplified by the p2w approach this game has had, and the excessive power of the auction house that allows flippers to "win" without even playing the damn game. Go figure. Even with that, MP10 is nothing more than a dps check, because it's not even remotely as difficult as the original inferno was, most likely because everything got overbuffed. At best all they did was make DPS way more important than it should be by scaling healthpools beyond reasonable levels.
I'll have to disagree with Lylirra on her opinions about the following quote:
1. The most popular builds do not account for position. Barb WW builds, monk TR builds, and DH strafe builds are unaffected by pathing, and there are no environmental effects to consider, anywhere.
2. The key builds do not significantly consider the placement of skills. There is typically only one skill utilized, and that skill typically does massive AOE damage centered on the path of the player.
3. Complexity and speed do not change. The game does not alter fundamental mechanics between Normal and Inferno. Speed does not change. There is ONLY the scaling of damage and health, with the exception of a few monster affixes, most of which are not particularly strategic, but instant and automatic.

1. While those builds can pass through enemies they are still affected by environment pathing. That is, stairs, walls, elite affixes (ie jailer, waller, frozen), and general non-passable debris on the walkmesh.

2. My main WW barb relies on Leap/Death from Above and Cleave/Scattering Blast as much as he relies on WW. My Strafe DH uses Rain of Vengeance/Dark Cloud and Sentry/Aid Station whenever they become available.

3. Inferno difficulty enemies are significantly faster than normal.

(Not sure why the Community Manager agreed with you on any of those points.)


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