0dog: big bang evolution for 1.08

Witch Doctor
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If u can acquire the gear to do an accurate test like that it should show the time difference between the two builds and the one that kills faster is the higher edps build. But even if your low asp dps build wins it really needs to win by a significant factor over a high aps dps build in order for it to be worth ppl's time and gold.


that's the thing. i will likely never be able to make a vid like that since i have a hard enough time affording this build :D I doubt I'll ever be able to afford 2 0dog builds (arguably the most expensive build in D3) if i was a streamer and are getting paid, maybe that would be justified, but that's not something that's likely to happen in the near future :D as of right now, i'm neither dressed enough nor skilled enough to try ghom on my own. so i will ask my friend to make a vid on that. it wont break any world records since i've already explained why this build is at a disadvantage for that fight and in the grand scheme of things doesn't matter much when it comes to relevance towards a "group oriented" build.

this is simply to show that sub 2.0 APS is in fact mp10 viable and a practical build for those who may have found excellent gear along the way but doesn't fit into the traditional APS 0dog build.

PS. thx to your suggestion, I checked out the open broadcaster software and was able to make a very basic vid on this build

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ACJorr3yaA

I will make future video updates on the 3rd post of this thread whenever my friend has time to make some vids.


I dont know what your budget is but what I suggest is building a low budget high attack speed build as i stated around 100k dps give or take, then rebalance your current low attack speed build to be around or as close as possible to the same sheet dps. Then do your tests.

Was your first 0 Dog build a low attack speed build? I mean do you not have any gear from your original build to use for this test?
I know your pretty hellbent on trying to proove that an anti attack speed 0 Dog build is just as good or better but something I want to point out to u in regards to my guide. I clearly stated that I did not invent or design the 0 Dog build. I learned about it from watching other 0 Dog players as they too used high attack speed.

The whole purpose of having high attack speed does three things:

1. Helps keep you alive
2. Helps maintain Gruesome Feast
3. Helps speed up the dps process.

Going against the *traditional* high attack speed build for 0 Dog is pretty much breaking the build.

You have alrdy stated that most players will die a lot running this build, second they probably wont be able to do bosses, and they probably wont be able to handle reflect dmg packs.

What is the point in adopting a build such as what you are suggesting if it doesn't work for at least 90% or more of the game.

I think the target audience for this build is someone who has a very good 0 Dog build *and* has money to waste to buy and regear for your so called anti-attack speed build. I'm beginning to see why most ppl probably wont want you in their group. I know I wouldn't want to group with someone who gets high crit #'s that i will nvr see anyways but is always dying. Id rather group with someone who can stay alive.

"I guess i simply want to be the guy that brings the DPS but ALSO stay's Alive. instead of that guy who dies all the time and also provides some dps in between deaths."
well... 1st of all, I'd like to think of this as an evolutionary build. not simply an anti APS build :D in fact, if you take this build to its extreme theoretical end, you'd end up with a fairly high APS :)

I don't really know how many times I can to say this... but this build is targeted towards GROUP play which is one of the primary focus of 1.08. In a group, some of the environmental factors are different then solo play. this build focuses on synergy with other players in order to improve overall effectiveness of the entire group. it's unfortunate that our "lesser" contribution (health globes) has became the primary reason that other classes have sought us out. this build is aimed to change THAT opinion of the 0dog build. We are 1st and foremost DPS, we simply happen to provide health globes also.

As far as dying excessively, that is a relative term. I absolutely do NOT recommend this to anyone considering a HC character because there are limitations as to how much buffer this build can offer in terms of avoiding death. however that is not to say this build is as "ineffective" as I have made it sound like thus far :D yes I die quite abit using this build. however I'm also not a very good player. someone else who is better at playing D3 may have different results. I did emphasize this build depends on both equipment AND skill.

I do not try to hide anything about this build. if there are weaknesses, I point it out. This way people trying the build know what to look for and can form their own solutions to those weaknesses depending on their play style. skilled players can often adjust to those weakness w/o any changes. some may decide to go back to for the master if their gear isn't quite up to par or they are not a very good player or they can simply switch out to purple gems instead of yellow gems to boost some EHP. each player makes their own adjustment based on their preference.

I did my 1st 50 paragon levels using an APS of 1.3 so I can say with 100% confidence that sub 2.0 APS does work above MP8. these days I do about 90% MP10 and 10% MP9 depending on who i group with or if I'm solo. the irony to this build is that EVENTUALLY the evolution DOES bring you back to a high APS build. after you reach max int/crit chance/crit dmg on every slot, the only way to improve your DPS is to increase APS :D however I'm very far away from that point. and considering last night my computer dipped down to 5 FPS in a group with monk/wiz/0dog/0dog during a large pack + elites. I will not be seeking a great deal of haste items in the near future.

high APS only helps IF your computer is able to respond to that APS. as we all know, the explosion from dogs cause massive lag to the computer. this is less of an issue in solo play because the amount of stress put on the machine is lower, however this problem does become apparent during GROUP play which this build is specifically designed for. Due to this unfortunate fact, slower APS is also favored since the computer simply can not respond to the high APS anyway. this is part of the reason I called this an evolution build. it takes into consideration aspects of the game that is beyond our control and adapt to the environmental variables in order to maximize group effectiveness.
Those big numbers are cool to watch! You def crit harder and more often than my with doctor.

I dropped 9 percent attack speed for crit, and honestly I couldn't stand it. My doctor felt clunky. I also can't stand summoning dogs on the move and having to wait that extra little bit to get my char moving. I put the attack speed back on :)
I did my 1st 50 paragon levels using an APS of 1.3 so I can say with 100% confidence that sub 2.0 APS does work above MP8. these days I do about 90% MP10 and 10% MP9 depending on who i group with or if I'm solo. the irony to this build is that EVENTUALLY the evolution DOES bring you back to a high APS build. after you reach max int/crit chance/crit dmg on every slot, the only way to improve your DPS is to increase APS :D however I'm very far away from that point. and considering last night my computer dipped down to 5 FPS in a group with monk/wiz/0dog/0dog during a large pack + elites. I will not be seeking a great deal of haste items in the near future.


So once you reach the end point of this evolution build, only thing left would be to add AS? If that is the end, wouldn't the players that ran with this spec have to give up some affix/item slots on their build... which would bring them to what an APS spec now pretty much is? Imo, a Zero Dog with no AS is a broken Zero Dog, but that's me. I need AS. Just the difference in life steal as a whole is pretty significant. With that said, no matter how one goes about affix prioritization on their build, a ZD player will eventually have AS in their spec. I wouldn't call it an evolution of the build, but more a "you can try taking this route instead" build.
Those big numbers are cool to watch! You def crit harder and more often than my with doctor.

I dropped 9 percent attack speed for crit, and honestly I couldn't stand it. My doctor felt clunky. I also can't stand summoning dogs on the move and having to wait that extra little bit to get my char moving. I put the attack speed back on :)


Yeah, the slowmotion feeling? That irked me the wrong way as well.
Those big numbers are cool to watch! You def crit harder and more often than my with doctor.

I dropped 9 percent attack speed for crit, and honestly I couldn't stand it. My doctor felt clunky. I also can't stand summoning dogs on the move and having to wait that extra little bit to get my char moving. I put the attack speed back on :)


absolutely :D I specifically said ALOT of people will disagree with this build :D

this build will rub people the wrong way especially if they've gotten used to all that speed in the 1st place. all i'm saying is this build opens up the "possibility" of using that 3% life steal, 100% crit dmg, 50% weapon damage, 100int, 100vit, with open socket spear or hammer you happen to find somewhere along your upgrade path :)

don't think of this build as the "carved in stone" type build. but more of an "opening up possibilities" type of build. it focuses on efficiency and synergies in an group environment. if you find it difficult to deal with the reduced survivability of low APS, then you can always go back to using for the master. that alone should push you along till your next upgrade step. you may also find the more "challenging" gameplay required by this build to be.... refreshing? :D some of you out there are so well geared that it's damn near impossible to die :D having some threat of death can be refreshing from time to time :)

as always. I would say play with the build make it your own by adjusting it to your play style. keep in mind that IF your primary focus is going to be group play (as encouraged by 1.08) then some of what you've gotten used to may not be a "required" part of your build anymore. if your chance of death is the same with or without that requirement in a group, then why not seeing those bigger yellow numbers :)

truth is, with a 0dog and a perma freeze wiz in a full group, you are likely to see some pretty pathetic frame rates anyway :D so it's not like your computer can take advantage of all that APS you spent so much to acquire in the 1st place. there IS a diminishing returns when it comes to APS due to computer lag. However, there is NO diminishing returns with big yellow numbers :D

So once you reach the end point of this evolution build, only thing left would be to add AS? If that is the end, wouldn't the players that ran with this spec have to give up some affix/item slots on their build... which would bring them to what an APS spec now pretty much is? Imo, a Zero Dog with no AS is a broken Zero Dog, but that's me. I need AS. With that said, no matter how one goes about affix prioritization on their build, a ZD player will eventually have AS in their spec.


well that's entirely up to them. gear selection always comes down to tradeoff's. Do you "spend" that 100int, 2% crit chance, and 11% crit damage to acquire another 7% IAS? or do you feel that the gold cost associated with that tradeoff is not worth the upgrade? remember, at the very end game we are talking about, EVERYTHING is in billions of gold :D it's going to be up to the individual to determine what they feel is "better" for their play style.

all I can say is, the game in its current condition has some VERY large optimization problems involving the 0dog build in a GROUP environment. if you get a pack size of 20 mobs and above, you will likely see some single digit frame rates. this problem is compounded even further especially if you have 2 0dogger in the group :D 1.08 will encourage more grouping and this build is designed around the fact that there are synergies when you look into grouping.
I can see you're build being most effective in a group with another 0-dog so the combined health globe production isn't gimped and you can stay alive. However then you're dependent on his hg production instead of your own.

What is the definition "breakpoint"?

The breakpoints of aps for 0 dog should be defined if in between 2 attack speed there is no increase in the number of dog sacrifice explosion.

I give you an example here to make it clear.
when you say
"...1.9 APS break point, its benefit over the 1.6 break point..."

Do you mean that after you get over 1.6 aps,
there is no change in number of dog explosions till you get over 1.9?


you are absolutely correct. i suppose the term "break point" is not exactly accurate in describing the situation. it is DEFINITELY not meant the same way a wizard uses them in the critical mass build where it alters the fundamental tick values of the wicked wind.

it is used more as a soft guideline of the upper and lower limits of the build. it is NOT based on any hard math like how it is used in the critical mass discussion. below 1.6 APS, the summon/explosion animation cycle is simply "too slow" to offer half way decent mobility. above 1.9, diminishing returns starts to kick in due to the horrible graphics optimization in the 0dog explosion in a GROUP environment.

my frame rate dropped down to 5FPS during a large pack (roughly 25 mobs) in a group consist of 2 0dogger, implosion, and perma freeze. In situations like that, high APS does not help because your computer is lagging so badly it can barely render anything. so... upgrade my machine? well... I'm already using a 2500k + 7970 + 8gig ram + SATA3 SSD... and I play crysis/tomb raider just fine with it... I feel this is more of an optimization issue rather then a hardware issue so throwing more hardware at it won't really solve the problem.

given the CURRENT issues, (poor optimization of 0dog and encouraged group play of 1.08) going above 1.9 APS really only benefit solo play which is not the focus of this build.
05/03/2013 11:31 AMPosted by Ryman
I can see you're build being most effective in a group with another 0-dog so the combined health globe production isn't gimped and you can stay alive. However then you're dependent on his hg production instead of your own.


actually... :D I depend on the wizard the most :p I rarely group with 0dog cuz they cause too much lag :D implosion monks is the primary controller in kill speed however wizards keep me alive because they reduce the occurrence of reflect damage or any ground effect affixes. the only mob i have problems with going toe to toe in a group is actually siegebreaker because of the perma reflect dmg :D. the rest of the time it depends on who I'm grouped with. THE primary weakness of big crits IS big reflects :D
truth is, with a 0dog and a perma freeze wiz in a full group, you are likely to see some pretty pathetic frame rates anyway :D so it's not like your computer can take advantage of all that APS you spent so much to acquire in the 1st place. there IS a diminishing returns when it comes to APS due to computer lag. However, there is NO diminishing returns with big yellow numbers :D


There is a drawback on how fast these yellow numbers pop up. You only seem to mention raw numbers, but not say anything about how OFTEN these numbers pop up... which AS has everything to do with.

If you took one WD with 1.3 APS and let's just say 100k damage per cast of sacrifice to keep it simple. That means that WD will be dishing out 1.95m per 15 sec. Compare that to a WD that has 2.3 APS and ONLY 60k damage per cast and you get 2.07m per 15 sec.

Not to mention how low AS affects globe windup and ls. As I've said, higher numbers doesn't mean higher ls. Same with damage, higher numbers doesn't necessarily mean higher damage as how often/fast damage is dealt also has a lot to do with it.

If you took one WD wish 1.3 APS and let's just say 100k damage per cast of sacrifice to keep it simple. That means that WD will be dishing out 1.95m per 15 sec. Compare that to a WD that has 2.3 APS and ONLY 60k damage per cast and you get 2.07m per 15 sec.

Not to mention how low AS affects globe windup and ls. As I've said, higher numbers doesn't mean higher ls. Same with damage, higher numbers doesn't necessarily mean higher damage as how often damage is dealt also has a lot to do with it.


slight difference here. a 2.3 APS of only 60k dmg is actually more expensive then a 1.3 APS of 100k dmg. problem is the value of IAS has been jacked up so high that even trash gear with IAS tend to be expensive due to demand.

I agree completely in regards to the globe production, however, that is part of the reason that I included the 1.9APS discussion in my build. the advantage of globe production between 2.3 vs 1.9 is negligible due to overall game lag in group environments. IS there advantages of going above 1.9? yes. however, that is not part of my argument. my theory behind that is more about the tradeoffs you must make to achieve those higher APS as well as the diminishing returns of those high APS in a group environment. I see this as a matter of efficiency and effectiveness of the group. not an absolute yes or no issue regarding globe production.
IS there advantages of going above 1.9? yes. however, that is not part of my argument. my theory behind that is more about the tradeoffs you must make to achieve those higher APS as well as the diminishing returns of those high APS in a group environment.


If you're going to openly acknowledge that there are benefits to going above a higher AS and then say that it isn't part of your argument, then there's not much really to say. Hard to have a debate if you're going to ignore certain factors that are quite important to the fundamentals of the ZD core mechanics. As you said, it's all about the trade offs. So far it just seems like the tradeoff is not worth it to get higher numbers vs everything that AS brings to the table.

I guess I got confused then. The way this thread started out I thought it was about how this spec was supposed to be the next evolution of the build. I'm not really sure how a spec can be considered a next step if there are significant drawbacks/limitations on it. The benefits gained from this spec doesn't really make up for the loss of benefits of higher AS. As I have said, I wouldn't call it an evolution of the build, but more a "you can try taking this route instead" build.

"I guess i simply want to be the guy that brings the DPS but ALSO stay's Alive. instead of that guy who dies all the time and also provides some dps in between deaths."


this is rather difficult to measure against because the only vid I was able to locate from you was 5 months old. your performance can not be accurately measured relative to your current level of gear. most of the assumptions made regarding death of my build is mathematical. I concede the fact that my build results in more deaths due to the fact that I'm not a good player, and the math behind the 2 builds supports far superior survivability of the more traditional 0dog build. however, I will say, in the right hands, the big bang evolution build is every bit as survivable as the traditional build in a GROUP environment.

as I've said. this build does depend on the skill of the player, and punishes poor players quite harshly. as with any high tier builds. tolerance for mistakes tend to diminish quite drastically. however, it does reward well for the higher risks taken such is the nature of any glass cannon type builds.
slight difference here. a 2.3 APS of only 60k dmg is actually more expensive then a 1.3 APS of 100k dmg. problem is the value of IAS has been jacked up so high that even trash gear with IAS tend to be expensive due to demand.


I am also a little bit confused about this, I thought you said in one of the other threads that this spec is actually more expensive than the APS build? Which last time I checked, it actually is more expensive.
05/03/2013 12:45 PMPosted by LordAmsa
slight difference here. a 2.3 APS of only 60k dmg is actually more expensive then a 1.3 APS of 100k dmg. problem is the value of IAS has been jacked up so high that even trash gear with IAS tend to be expensive due to demand.


I am also a little bit confused about this, I thought you said in one of the other threads that this spec is actually more expensive than the APS build? Which last time I checked, it actually is more expensive.


more expensive in relative to a 4 piece or 5 piece set that beginners would use :D however if you are talking about numbers as low as 100k dmg... I can do that w/o ANY crits at all :D it's a matter of context.
05/03/2013 12:49 PMPosted by Psyclum


I am also a little bit confused about this, I thought you said in one of the other threads that this spec is actually more expensive than the APS build? Which last time I checked, it actually is more expensive.


more expensive in relative to a 4 piece or 5 piece set that beginners would use :D however if you are talking about numbers as low as 100k dmg... I can do that w/o ANY crits at all :D it's a matter of context.


...the 100k was just a number I threw out there to keep the math short and simple. Just to simplify my point regarding the actual EDPS that a player loses opting for a low APS spec.

...the 100k was just a number I threw out there to keep the math short and simple. Just to simplify my point regarding the actual EDPS that a player loses opting for a low APS spec.


oh I completely understand :D i was just responding to the "price" aspects of the discussion. the big bang evolutions has a VERY expensive "starting line" (somewhere in the 10 billion gold range). so for all intensive purposes, it's "expensive" hence not for beginners. however. when you are talking about "relative price", there is a premium for haste items due to high demand.
05/03/2013 12:09 PMPosted by LordAmsa
truth is, with a 0dog and a perma freeze wiz in a full group, you are likely to see some pretty pathetic frame rates anyway :D so it's not like your computer can take advantage of all that APS you spent so much to acquire in the 1st place. there IS a diminishing returns when it comes to APS due to computer lag. However, there is NO diminishing returns with big yellow numbers :D


There is a drawback on how fast these yellow numbers pop up. You only seem to mention raw numbers, but not say anything about how OFTEN these numbers pop up... which AS has everything to do with.

If you took one WD with 1.3 APS and let's just say 100k damage per cast of sacrifice to keep it simple. That means that WD will be dishing out 1.95m per 15 sec. Compare that to a WD that has 2.3 APS and ONLY 60k damage per cast and you get 2.07m per 15 sec.

Not to mention how low AS affects globe windup and ls. As I've said, higher numbers doesn't mean higher ls. Same with damage, higher numbers doesn't necessarily mean higher damage as how often/fast damage is dealt also has a lot to do with it.


Yep that is exactly my point as well besides the sacrifice of survivability with this build.

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