Pros outweigh the Cons for a D3 Ladder

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04/29/2013 11:35 AMPosted by Zaxxon23
People have different tastes. They want to see different things. When you have 12 million people buy a game, you are going to have a wide range of opinions and desires. And just like your complaints have a lot of support from the community, the ladder system does as well.


Ideas are all well and good, when they fit in with the franchise. And as much as you would like to believe that ladder resets are Diablo, they most definately are not. They were ONLY implemented as a result of out of control bots and dupes mixed with an aging game that was no longer going to get updated.

There's a reason there were no ladder resets in D2 for the first 4-5 years. That's because a Diablo game done right does NOT have ladder resets. The extensive rarity of top items is all that is needed for replayability until expansion or the next item refresh.

This is not rocket science, and is completely observable by a simple critical analysis of D2 or even D3 for that matter. There's a reason most people don't have crit mempos, or good dual socket manticores. Because that stuff is rare. That's the end game. And it's not close to done yet. Even if Blizzard wanted to do a ladder reset, it still wouldn't occur for a very long time because we as a collective playerbase are not even remotely close to the top end of gear yet.

Think people....think.
SO lets say theres no expac within one year from now. That will be 2 years of the game being out. You don't think that most peoiple will have "end game gear" by then? If theres no new items added to the game on a constant basis ytou will have a helluva time trying to sell/trade anything you find. People will find crit mempos over time, it will come to the point of you finding items with 0 value unless they roll perfect. And even then, you will have to compete with all the others selling the perfects.
04/29/2013 10:39 AMPosted by Zaxxon23
Its weird that people bored with the game already at lower levels would want something different in it.......


Then maybe they're playing the wrong game? D2 was no different. Diablo is a long-term farming and trading game. Ladder resets take away from that basic tenant of the game.

Maybe people should focus on the real reasons they are getting bored, which come down to horrible itemization, a horrible end-game, no pvp as an alternative activity, and greatly diminished replayability brought about by unlimited instantaneous respecs. Ladder resets won't fix squat and only serve to harm the players who have invested significant amounts of gametime in hopes that this game becomes playable in the future.


Ladder resets will ensure this game has long term replayability. If you have all plvl 100 characters right now 10/10 and the best items, whats left for you to do really? The game is lacking in MANY things but who is to say (besides the supposed 1.09 itemization patch) they'll keep adding in new gear? Theres no hint to it that its a part of any future patches.

Ladders worked well in d2, they can also in d3, after the game gets a facelift in the coming months.
"1. Gives those who like to compete a chance to with a ladder."

Really? Only if you play 24h a day.

Now i give you the "cons" that will be big enough to win all those 7 you presented to us:

1.(and only one) Its very hard to find games for every quest, for every act, for every MPlvl in a Multiplayer game.
Now, imagine all this divided by 2. Will be a very, i said... very lonely life.

NO to Ladder! this will only increase the necessity of the AH and making players play SP even more. And that exactly what Blizz dont want. They want people playing together.
Hardcore Ladder was where it was at, Trolling all those dungeons like an equation, finding people to run you through the hard stuff, easy enough to start over if you died, and then the feeling of having survived it all with your Godly character; or the crushing defeat and feeling of despair at death OH MAN KEYBOARD THROW. I remember getting all my pals together to play hardcore ladder all night long, Good Times, bring it back.
04/29/2013 12:16 PMPosted by Zaxxon23
SO lets say theres no expac within one year from now. That will be 2 years of the game being out. You don't think that most peoiple will have "end game gear" by then? If theres no new items added to the game on a constant basis ytou will have a helluva time trying to sell/trade anything you find. People will find crit mempos over time, it will come to the point of you finding items with 0 value unless they roll perfect. And even then, you will have to compete with all the others selling the perfects.


IF there's no expac a year from now, this might be a worthwhile conversation. But I'm not arguing maybes. I'm stating the simple fact that right now the vast majority of the playerbase is nowhere close to geared, and there is no legitimate reason to reset the game.


You can still take your sweet time finding the "uber perfect" gear in Non-Ladder. There's where all the "gear perfectionists" from D2 lurked.

The ones that seeked mostly competition / racing to highest levels (HC ladder anyone?) / Fresh economy, enjoyed ladder resets.

You have a point but I don't see how you cannot accomplish it in a "Non-Ladder league".
"1. Gives those who like to compete a chance to with a ladder."

Really? Only if you play 24h a day.

Now i give you the "cons" that will be big enough to win all those 7 you presented to us:

1.(and only one) Its very hard to find games for every quest, for every act, for every MPlvl in a Multiplayer game.
Now, imagine all this divided by 2. Will be a very, i said... very lonely life.

NO to Ladder! this will only increase the necessity of the AH and making players play SP even more. And that exactly what Blizz dont want. They want people playing together.


Don't you have friends to play with? Saying no to a ladder system just because it''ll "split the already decreasing people in Public games" it's not a valid reason. Also, consider that most people play solo, with their own MP or private parties.

Actually, a ladder reset will most likely drag all the people together back into public to games to get through the game partying up.

Have you ever played D2 the very first day of a ladder reset? I think that's the day where mostly people ever appear in public games, because you will most likely need a party to move up faster through the difficulties.

It's really that simple.
I'm confused. Why do idiots say "I don't want ladder, I don't want my character wiped". Do they not understand that D2 was available in Basic AND Ladder? If you don't ladder stay off it, simple.
04/29/2013 12:31 PMPosted by IllIllllIllI
I'm confused. Why do idiots say "I don't want ladder, I don't want my character wiped". Do they not understand that D2 was available in Basic AND Ladder? If you don't ladder stay off it, simple.
This, aside from the name calling part, is how I feel.

People are forgetting the basics here.

1. You do NOT lose any hard work as you can still play the game normally as you would before in a non ladder.

2. You would have to have more characters slots, not delete any current ones, as you can only have one account per cd key.

3 This will NOT happen in a patch but an expac. I'd like to see it in a patch but there is still a lot of core mechanics to come out yet.

3a. This ladder cannot happen UNTIL these changes to the game are made. Itemization, better multiplayer games (i.e. REAL lobbies and naming games) and so on.

4. The community will not be any more split then it all ready is. You have the opportunity right now to play SC or HC, I don't see much complaint in those being split.

5. I feel more players will have more of a reason to play the game they either quit or barely log into. More players, more community. This game is dormant, a fraction of the player base from those who purchased it.

6. There could be a ladder with NO GAH or RMAH. People will still use 3rd party places no matter what so you can actually have a ladder with or without it. ALSO if it came without either, that would definately appeal to lots of folks who don't like the RMAH/GAH.

7. People DO want to compete with eachother, officially, not just looking at 3rd party sites for a "gear score". A ladder ranking is not a 24/7 requirement to see your name on it. I've done it in d2 many times. It took effort and such but no where near an all day time frame.

8. Botters/Dupers will ALWAYS be around, ladder or not. Its just that ladder has a good way of taking out dupes and resetting the gold botters accounts. Yes they will find a way again to bot and dupe and obtain wealth but if theres no way to rid it right now, it only helps.
04/29/2013 12:40 PMPosted by Zaxxon23
Do they not understand that D2 was available in Basic AND Ladder?


Do you not understand that there was no resettable ladder for the first 4-5 years in D2? It doesn't take a genius to understand that resettable ladders were a direct response to out of control dupers and botters.


So, have you been playing this game lately? Do you not realize the wealth of gold botters, item botters, dupers...etc? Maybe because its not as prevalent as it was in the later years of d2 (d3 has been out only a year now ya know) but they are there. I could show you the botters and dupers now and how its only going to grow with time. A reset, ladder or not, would at least take out the current items and gold storages.

4. The community will not be any more split then it all ready is. You have the opportunity right now to play SC or HC, I don't see much complaint in those being split.


Ladder would simply be SC that resets. There is no difference in playstyle because unlike HC, you don't have to worry about permanent death, and every element plaguing SC will plague ladders. That, and actual SC play would be far more conducive to any changes like furthered endgame, or new areas, or new modes of play (like endless dungeons or whatever) than ladder is, simply because it gives people a chance.


5. I feel more players will have more of a reason to play the game they either quit or barely log into. More players, more community. This game is dormant, a fraction of the player base from those who purchased it.


Except that every element you list as being necessary for ladders would generate far more activity than ladders themselves, some of them individually so.


7. People DO want to compete with eachother, officially, not just looking at 3rd party sites for a "gear score". A ladder ranking is not a 24/7 requirement to see your name on it. I've done it in d2 many times. It took effort and such but no where near an all day time frame.


Ladders are not the only way to increase competition. They're also far from the best way, regardless of whether you're a scoreboard glory hound or a in the heat of battle bloodthirster.


8. Botters/Dupers will ALWAYS be around, ladder or not. Its just that ladder has a good way of taking out dupes and resetting the gold botters accounts. Yes they will find a way again to bot and dupe and obtain wealth but if theres no way to rid it right now, it only helps.


It doesn't take any dupes out, and it doesn't reset their accounts. It gives them an avenue to generate more valuable duped items, and a place to sell even more valuable gold, only making their problem more plain to see and more of a drag upon the game as a whole and individual modes of play as well. Particularly if you allow them to do it with ladder-only items.

You provide absolutely no solutions at all for them, while making the problem even worse by giving them free reign in a clean environment to instantly overwhelm legitimate players.
be nice to have no more plastic players sorry casual players.

1. You do NOT lose any hard work as you can still play the game normally as you would before in a non ladder.


For most of us who "played" the ladder in D2, once a character became non-ladder, they would be deleted or never to be used again.

2. You would have to have more characters slots, not delete any current ones, as you can only have one account per cd key.


I doubt they would increase the number of characters per account, to be honest. I wouldn't mind it, but I wouldn't bank on it.

3 This will NOT happen in a patch but an expac. I'd like to see it in a patch but there is still a lot of core mechanics to come out yet.


I'm not sure what's the obsession with the character wipe-out. The XP will bring better items --- making your current gear no longer BiS. You could have an Arena Ladder --- where people compete various challenge and have certain items be banned from it (Let's say "Legacy" gear are not allowed in there).

*People keep their characters.
*People keep their current gear.
*People have reasons to get new gear, even if it's slightly inferior to their current ones.
*A ladder where you don't have to participate --- and the playerbase is not fractionated.

3a. This ladder cannot happen UNTIL these changes to the game are made. Itemization, better multiplayer games (i.e. REAL lobbies and naming games) and so on.


Imagine if Blizzard said this: We're going to make a ladder reset --- wiping out every item and characters. How long would it take to be implemented? It took them nearly a year to implement chat channel in Sc2. D3 would become a wasteland.

My earlier suggestion for "ladder" is much better IMO.

4. The community will not be any more split then it all ready is. You have the opportunity right now to play SC or HC, I don't see much complaint in those being split.


Because they are different. You don't play the game the same way in HC compared to SC. Fractionating SC into two separate entities is only going to create problems. I can already see this here: "Oh you noob, you don't even play ladder". It's just bragging rights --- bragging about nothing at all --- the game plays exactly the same way in SC with or without the AH. The game remains the same. It's not the same as HC vs SC.

HC is about the thrill of knowing that you can die any moment in a dangerous battle.

5. I feel more players will have more of a reason to play the game they either quit or barely log into. More players, more community. This game is dormant, a fraction of the player base from those who purchased it.


*I don't deny that people will come back if there was a ladder reset. However, how many of them will stay for more than a week? A month? They left the game for a reason (or for many reasons). If the issues are not fixed, they are still going to leave the game, again, with out without a ladder. You bring back players by fixing the game, not by adding a cheap ladder

6. There could be a ladder with NO GAH or RMAH. People will still use 3rd party places no matter what so you can actually have a ladder with or without it. ALSO if it came without either, that would definately appeal to lots of folks who don't like the RMAH/GAH.


In the previous point, you speak of "more community". Now, you are proposing to separate that community.

*More community --- well, that depends. If you fractionate the community, you are not bringing them together, you are separating them. Some people may want the ladder without GAH and RMAH. Some want it without the RMAH only. Some may want both of them. How are you going to please them? No RMAH or GAH? That's fine, I'll use D2JSP and take advantage of the fact that you do not know what your item is worth. Keep both? Well, now you will have people complaining as well. We're not out of the wood.

What we have here is people wanting bragging rights. "Oh, I completed the game without using the RMAH or GAH". We can already do that. They just want to handicap others for their own selfish desires.

Are we going to have those ladders :
*Ladder with RMAH, GAH
*Ladder without RMAH, but with GAH
*Ladder without RMAH, GAH
?

You've just split the SC community into 4 factions.

Want to fix that? Have an achievement "This character has completed SC or HC without equipping or using any item coming from either the GAH or RMAH".

Voila. No need to separate the community.

7. People DO want to compete with eachother, officially, not just looking at 3rd party sites for a "gear score". A ladder ranking is not a 24/7 requirement to see your name on it. I've done it in d2 many times. It took effort and such but no where near an all day time frame.


See my Arena suggestion.

*Have a survive the longest against infinite monsters and beat your personal high-score challenge.
*If you are in a University --- have a high-score for that University so you can try to beat it.
*Other similar "ladder ranking*

8. Botters/Dupers will ALWAYS be around, ladder or not. Its just that ladder has a good way of taking out dupes and resetting the gold botters accounts. Yes they will find a way again to bot and dupe and obtain wealth but if theres no way to rid it right now, it only helps.


We're already suffering the consequences of bots.

*Shiny chest nerf.
*Purple monster nerf.
*Removal of certain guaranteed elites.
*XP nerf.
*Loot nerf.
*Destructible nerf.
*Chest nerf,
*Moving certain dungeons away.
*Goblin nerf.
*Etc.

Stop balancing the game around bots.
d3 totally different game than d2. In d3 there can not be d2-like ledder couse in d3 u can not run d2nt hammer bot and get dream gear in 4 weeks. d2 ledder had it's charm becouse of bots and gearing up (perf charms), pvp. AND blizzard was fine with it couse there was no ban for it.

In d2 u could get runnable char very fast, BUT in d3 u simply can not get 100kk 150 lvl ww barb in 2 weeks 3-5 h daily.

What's more d2 ladder was for some ppl about getting max lvl and it was hard without botting. In d3 u can get max lvl way too fast. i mean wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

d3 ledder could be sth cool, but MUST BE totally different from d2. PERIOD
You make no valid points thee end no ladder !@#$ off.
Ladder in d2 was the only reason to play softcore, for me at least. It would add to d3, but it would not fix the massive amounts of issues the game still has. RMAH was a horrible idea. Pay-to-win isn't in the spirit of diablo games. It's just a way for Blizz to get more money out of us...
Ok. IMHO:

- Making a Ladder avaible for play wouldn't change anything for those who don't want to play it. TRUE Consider the actual SC and HC realms as non-ladder (bc that's what they are) and just add a ladder for those who like to run throu the game like crazed lemmings. Sure as heck it wouldnt affect me in any way.

-Ladder resets are neccesary to clean up the item base and stop price of BIS items from getting absurdly higher from the rest of the gear. TRUE.. to an extent. With no ladder, what will happen is that the price from the not-so-godly stuff will begin to drop. Now tell me: How is that a bad thing? If all you care about is to be THE best then then you need psicological assistance, but for normal ppl who wan't to improve their toon within their own possibilities it's a GOOD thing.

- Ladder resets is the only way to give players a motivation to keep playing once they have endgame gear. FALSE. I believe this game and life in general have something in common: The fun is walking the path; it doesn't matter where it takes you to. If all you care about is having a particular gear, and power level-RMAH-rush-glitch-buy your way to it... the problem is not the game, it's your mindset.

Are you too powerfull and have nothing else to do? I doubt you are. And if you are part of that select minority, then play hardcore, or try a new char.

Have allready achieved BIS equipment for all classes and all possible builds both SC and HC? then go do the achievments, play duels, clean the maps naked, break your own best time for killing ubers in MP10, whatever...

If nothing amuses you then try going outside and living for a bit or play another game.

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