The Five Kingdoms: Barbarian Wing

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The Heaven's tremble

Good to have you on board again mate :)


What class are u going?
Just tested something that was worrying me for quite some time. There can only be one heh...basically Warcry and Inspiring Presence, even if you run different runes on the Barbs only the last cry is applied. Thankfully Rend "stacks" (separate damage for each Barb).

The biggest handicap we have compared to WDs, DHs and even Wizards if they know what they´re doing is channeling skills and snapshot mechanics. Basically the challenge is mainly stationary target practice, the short routes before a few bosses seem negligible.

If there´s people who don´t know what advanced snapshotting is...basically you take the following damage modifiers and utility effects:

1. weapon damage
2. total aps (breakpoint and/or damage modifier for certain skills)
3. primary stat
4. critical hit damage
5. average damage
6. adds x% to elemental damage
7. elite and demon damage bonus
8. "damage increased by skills" bonus (like Brawler & Berserker Rage)
9. gear skill bonus (e.g. WW crit chance on SoJ)
10. "elemental skills deal x% more damage" bonus
11. life steal

Basically everything except normal crit chance. What you do is you have the main set of gear without crit chance (arguably much cheaper), activate all damage bonuses and start channeling the skill (hold down the button) and gear swap to your full critical hit chance and defensive (vit, regen etc.) gear, ideally with affixes that help you with resource management.

A list of certain skills that come to mind with snapshotting mechanics:

- Whirlwind: impractical for the challenge and by itself doesn´t deal enough damage to go the snapshot way

Demon Hunter:
- Strafe: same boat as Whirlwind, impractical, not to mention low damage output
- Shuriken Cloud: 17%*aps weapon damage each 30 frames, high proc coefficient (disc regen through Nightstalker, LS from Shadow Power etc. this skill is incredible)
- Rapid Fire: you´ll surely see this optimized to deal insane damage, Bombardment to hit both ubers and Fire Support for the single bosses, arguably higher damage output than a Barb IMO in both situations

Witch Doctor:
- Firebats: CoB is the biggest nuke in this game, couple that with snapshot mechanics and great party buffs, the only downside is the initial reliance on globes but they have Final Gift for that, my money is personally on these guys to win

- Ray of Frost: optimized Sleet Storm is nothing to laugh at, 100% crit chance possible, arguably stronger than HotA with snapshot
- Archon Disintegration Wave: impractical for this challenge and in normal gameplay as well
- Disintegrate: lower damage output that Ray of Frost and its piercing effect doesn´t help much in this challenge
- Arcane Torrent: made a mechanics thread about this skill and would love to see it optimized but I think it won´t happen in this challenge

- don´t care at this point, honestly they have enough somewhat broken skills and buffs that crazily stack

Considering the above and seeing as certain classes have IAS party buffs, I wouldn´t say going DW is necessary. We should decide on the main (primary) Barb´s build first and then consider if the second Barb is a wise decision. I know Chaz´s experience tells me two Barbs could work but there are some sick damage output options in other classes.

Btw. anyone ever tested the exact HotA mechanics? This is another aspect I was thinking about last night when I couldn´t sleep because of theorycrafting thoughts not leaving me alone...

I mean whether the crit chance bonus is current Fury / 5 or (fury - HotA cost)/5. I know the actual difference is just 4% with a 15 fury SoJ but 23 vs 19 may make a difference with the trouble of fitting in OPKS and get 100% crit chance. Are the options for the slot Rend if 2H, OPKS if DW (?) because the primary has to have Warcry somewhere?

Ruthless, Weapons Master and Berserker Rage/Inspiring Presence?

I can pilot a SnS P100 wizard (~24k elite kills) character class with excellence and do have a wwHoTA P94 barb (~30k elite kills). Kindly just let me know if my services is required, please.
Going on what nubtro said:

Yep. CoB snapshotting is by FAR the most ridiculous DPS skill in the game at the moment. It's broken to the point that earlier I tried estimating what pieces on the NA AH I could use to make a snapshot set. The end result was with a ~1B budget 3-phase snapshot (0-zog, DPS, CrC) you could make a set that could deal around 10M+ sustained DPS BEFORE party buffs meaning 20M+ with each WD post party buff for a combined party eDPS of 40M+ that can be sustained almost indefinitely with 5.5% LS.

To give you an idea of how high the ceiling is. I made the perfect snapshot set in d3rawr using a skorn (doomhammer has a higher ceiling but I don't know the DPS limit on it), solo the eDPS can reach over 30M+ whereas insaniquake barbs top out probably around the 15M mark.

The thing is that my assumption is that no 3rd party software will be allowed during the competition. Since we have quite a bit of non boss events it becomes difficult for the WDs to channel it since a gear set designed around gearswapping does horribly without it.

If I were team WD, I would probably use the monk wiz and pestilence locusts to help gather up as many mobs as possible on the citidel around the purple or core of arreat so the WDs only need to set up once or twice.

Now that snapshotting is out in the open I guess subbing out one barb for a CoB snapshot could work...
New "Official Thread" created.
If going 2H route, wrath:insanity may be better for all challenges, except the ubers. Coordinating this with overawe, CM wiz buffs, and WD buff (or DH Marked for death) could put up some serious pain. Can you drop Belial/Azmo or last phase Diablo within the 15 sec on this budget?
Some more on snapshotting:

I've was testing out sleet storm snapshotting yesterday, and getting nearly 3 mil effective dps against Ghom using frostburns+arcane dynamo+SOJ at about 130k sheet dps (with SOJ and frostburns) swapping to nat's set, source and gloves for about 27% free crit chance. With an optimized build (using SS crit + native crit wizard hat, mara's and skullgrasp) you could bring the damage multiplier up even further, and of course my starting gear is not that good to begin with.

Witch doctors are super scary with snapshot gearswapping, the downside is the poor range of CoB which would rely on perfect positioning and CM wizard play to make it work. I tested out a Ghom kill on my WD using snapshotting and crappy gear (103k dps with SOJ and magefist, including PTV) and I was able to take out Ghom in 18 seconds, which is 7.7 mil effective DPS. WIth an optimized setup you can hit much better numbers, and right now it could be sustained for 3.5 minutes continuously.

Monks and wizards can still snapshot elite, beast, demons damage onto storm armour and SW. I don't think this is widely used but it can provide a bit of a boost to these classes as these are such common skills to use and the snapshotting gear is cheap.
What would be your preference for the composition of the team zylog?

I think we should disallow snapshotting.. since at the end of the day the gears will be given to the new and promising players who are under geared I guess. I don't think they would like to be snapshotting for their gameplay.

Just a thought.. for ur consideration pls.
How would you enforce such a rule? You have to distinguish between "snapshot" and "gear swap", they´re two different aspects. Snapshotting by itself can´t be forbidden because that´s a game mechanics, you can only forbid "inventory opening" as soon as you leave town. At least that´s how I would word it.

Participants have to record it so a gear swap would be visible.

I´m not sure if we should do this because getting the weird two sets of gear to optimize it, is part of the fun and theorycrafting and I´m not sure how well it will be taken by WDs and DHs who probably already work on this (I know PaulNG the WD optimizes CoB because he asked me about the snapshot the other day). I wanted to do a similar thing as Chaz with WD today and search for certain unusual gear for a DH RF snapshot, but I can live with gear swap being forbidden.

Anyway, this should have been decided before the challenge, adding rules when it has already begun will probably cause trouble. Morph knows what is more important and the purpose of his challenge. If it is theorycrafting and finding the best party combo within the boundaries of the game (even if bordering on exploiting), leave the option to gear swap. If it´s the 4B gear that will be given away afterwards and/or playing the game how we think the devs imagined it (no gear swapping), then forbid it.

No problems on my side with either option, I´ll adapt. It´s Morph´s call, but IMO it should be decided sooner than later.

EDIT: As for DHs, I´ve tested a few combinations last night, with just a weapon swap from Manticore to Calamity and Archery passive you gain 50% crit damage and 10% crit chance (Ruthless Weapons Master hahaha) and the thing is that the game still applies the Calamity MfD so you have a constant +24% damage on at least one target

I beat the 1 minute mark vs Ghom (not impressive when zylog posted 18 sec with his Wiz heh) but I only used a 973 dps Manticore and just swapped the weapon and one ring. In the actual challenge, as a DH I´d probably go Custom Engineering to prolong the MfD duration if we expect >30 sec battles and change the Caltrops rune to Jagged Spikes to increase damage output if standing on top of foes with a snaphsot Shuriken Cloud or simply Sentry for a party buff (damage reduction/regen) and a bit of damage. The JS sustain puts a bit of pressure on your Discipline pool and doesn´t really add much damage after the gear swap.

Another option is to go ranged with Steady Aim but in a party with all the buffs, I really think a Shuriken Cloud snapshot is too good to pass up, damage and resource management-wise. Now you may laugh at me for theorycrafting DHs who I don´t think were mentioned so far ;)

Btw. does everyone think CM Wiz is mandatory? Just asking.
Hi Light

Yes, I that is something that I considered. However, it is still within the mechanics of the game and so I am going to allow it.

@ Nubtro

Yes, I agree. And thanks for the research, you're a legend :)
Maybe I should have kept quiet lol...
@ Nubtro

My wizard wasn't that impressive, I think I managed to go sub 40 seconds with her using snapshotting, but in terms of this competition getting CC+ROF gear is quite rare and expensive. The witch doctor was the one that put up the nice 18 second result, and that was using random gear I had lying around my inventory, not an optimized set.

@ Morpheus

I think Wiz + Monk for sure. Their additive damage buffs are so valuable, as Chaz said they're cheap to gear in a supporting role. The freeze from the wizard should be able to hold both uber bosses in a stacked position so that the DPS players can hit both at once. Finally exploding palm + additive debuffs on mobs is a nice burst damage to finish off ZK/Siege and Ghom/Rakanoth.

For the DPS roles, I think it's between barbs and WDs. Barbs have a greater ease of play and should be more easily adapted to be effective in the non-uber runs in the challenged. WD with snapshot provides incredible DPS, but is a less flexible build when running around is involved. I also don't know if we have any good candidates to play the WD role from the barb forum.

We should also consider how fast each fight will take. If sufficiently quick, I wonder if going for insanity on barbs might be an option. I've been doing ubers solo or as carries for so long that I have no idea what kind of times a decently geared and well coordinated group puts up against them.

Other thoughts:

If we go the 2 barb route, would it be sufficient to cycle the group runes of ignore pain and serenity to facetank the Belial's explosions?
Here is an example of snapshotting w/ DH if you guys haven't seen it yet...

If you guys can out dps that, then clearly DH lost lol.

Death is captain, and I've already been drafted as the diplomat (or whatever term Morpheus had)

Would you be up for being a fighter?
Here is an example of snapshotting w/ DH if you guys haven't seen it yet...

If you guys can out dps that, then clearly DH lost lol.

And if you guys want to see a snapshot WD:
This is with 86k unbuffed DPS.
Yup thats some awesome dps :)
Guys we need a list of potential players to choose from ASAP. I know there´s a couple of names in the first post, but their potential class they can play should be mentioned as well. We also need to decide on a paragon criteria to not lose as many stat points on the non-barb players. This is especially important in case we have a snapshot member.

We know most people are focused on one class and there´s very few that actually played >100 hours on most classes. If I had more characters than my Barb on the US server I´d gladly help but then there´s also the latency issue (240-260), not sure how that would work out. I should probably try to find a europe team or something.

Anyway, are there people who have pals to do some test runs with? We need to gauge the weight of the individual challenges and rough estimates of kill-times. Main reason is if Insanity Quake is an option and then there´s buffs that are up for limited periods of time.

Also stuff like a freezing support Wiz seems suboptimal against Belial on paper, the battle where a snapshot DH could really shine with RF Fire Support. We need a bit of data how well the freeze works against the bosses.

Morph two additional questions:

1. Would you allow the 2 subs to be non main party members if we manage to squeeze in some gear for them within the budget, or is it just 4 characters and the subs would jump in and get the main character´s gear then?

2. Are the challenges to be done in one single run or do teams just go get the best "ubers" time, then change builds and gear to do one boss run a couple of times etc.? Because then we also have to account for the adjustment time.

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