Loot 2.0, discovering its true potential.

General Discussion
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07/24/2013 11:20 AMPosted by Monstrous
Should the BOA crafting materials be used to craft BOA weapons and armor though? If the resulting item wasn't BOA then we'd have bots farming for crafting mats and instead just selling the actual completed items.


That's why I said the resulting items need to be BoA. :) Vanilla crafted items or found items that are used could be traded, but once you enhance them with the new crafting materials, they would become BoA and not able to be traded, thus removing them from the economy. It becomes a choice players have to make for themselves: do they just use the item as-is and hope to trade/sell it when they find something better, or do they upgrade the item to its maximum potential (as far as the crafting will allow anyway) knowing that it's theirs for good and any money sunk into it is gone for good.

Any type of "re-roll" system would also need to result in BoA as well, or else players will simply re-roll items until the desired set of affixes shows up and sell it, further saturating the market.
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Waned to address something you did not really approach because you were more about skills and items. I still see a need for a huge gold sink in the game. With the Billions of gold that come into play every day and the lack of a true gold sink the economy will see an ever inflating cap with no end in sight. In just a year we have seen prices in the AH climb ever sky ward with no end in sight.

I know people have cried,yelled, screamed and begged for gambling . I for one miss it and think it needs a return. I think variable stakes item gamble could draw millions if not billions out of the economy every single day. You would have the people with ten's of millions to billions gambling . This would be a huge gold sink and help stem the flow of gold into an already saturated economy.

Also adding that items gambled were not bound but instead could ONLY be resold in the GAH could insure another 15% of gold used to purchase the items being removed from the game.

I know the idea is rough but something along those lines would help to stabilize the economy and help bring the amount of gold in play down .
Excellent Post.

OP knows Diablo. Don't 100% agree with everything, but some phenomenal ideas. Ideas Blizz should work with and improve upon.
07/24/2013 11:39 AMPosted by TheTias
Should the BOA crafting materials be used to craft BOA weapons and armor though? If the resulting item wasn't BOA then we'd have bots farming for crafting mats and instead just selling the actual completed items.


That's why I said the resulting items need to be BoA. :) Vanilla crafted items or found items that are used could be traded, but once you enhance them with the new crafting materials, they would become BoA and not able to be traded, thus removing them from the economy. It becomes a choice players have to make for themselves: do they just use the item as-is and hope to trade/sell it when they find something better, or do they upgrade the item to its maximum potential (as far as the crafting will allow anyway) knowing that it's theirs for good and any money sunk into it is gone for good.

Any type of "re-roll" system would also need to result in BoA as well, or else players will simply re-roll items until the desired set of affixes shows up and sell it, further saturating the market.
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thing is the market IS already pretty saturated, just look at what trifecta gloves and rings cost compared to 9 months ago. Now the items need vit, main stat and/or all res. So that doesnt really bother me anymore.

What has to be done, is to give people a realistic chance to get their hands on BiS gear without farming the AH or RMAH, their playerbase is runing away, because many of us dont see any reason anymore to play this game at some point for gear, because the odds are so small, that you might play for years and not even find one item to get you further, but on the other side selling items becomes more and more difficult while more and more people look out for BiS items. The game has to keep up with that evolution, or people will stop playing D3 at some point completely.
I know people have cried,yelled, screamed and begged for gambling . I for one miss it and think it needs a return. I think variable stakes item gamble could draw millions if not billions out of the economy every single day. You would have the people with ten's of millions to billions gambling . This would be a huge gold sink and help stem the flow of gold into an already saturated economy.

people can scream and cry for gambling as long as they want, as long as there is a conection between gold and real money, we will never get it, not in a clear "gambling" form, because Blizz could get in a lot of trouble with that. Its a gray area, but they will try to avoid it, and its better that they do ... as soon as this game started to get real money in to it ... it really hurted the game.

Anyway, if you REALLY want to gamble, you can. Buy unidientifed items from people. Ask in games you play if people would give you the items they collect or just go to some trade chanels etc.
These are great ideas!

Which people need to interpret as being rough drafts. The numbers related to any one change may need tweeking but that shouldn't take away from the value of the change itself. Not that obvious gold sinks like upgrading the stats on gear should ever be cheap, as crafting marquise gems aren't right now.

Don't want to pay however-many ten's of millions of gold for another +10% CD from your weapon or 4 more stat points per gem? You'll still do well enough in this game without it.

Don't want to pay 100mil for another 0.5% crit chance on your CC Mempo? Nobody said you have to and if you need to in order to win at this game, you're obviously doing something else very wrong.

In either case, you'll still have something obscure and (questionably) difficult to achieve which is infinitely better than having nothing left to achieve.
It is mildly disturbing how easily people are led to believe something is great when its greatest merit is presentation.

That being said, I appreciate the effort made and I enjoyed reading through the suggestions, which had good and bad points.

The actual content is not going to lead to major improvements as so many posters seem to believe. There were many good posts in this thread that assess the problems, but I'll point out a few again:

1. Sparkling beams add excitement to sparkling items but remove it from non sparkly legendaries. If the sparkly legendaries are very rare, this only makes loot hunting even a greater bore as you are disappointed by almost all drops. That is the opposite of what is needed. You need more excitement more often, not less.

Diablo 2 did the excitement right by having many drops that you knew were valuable before even identifying them while they were on the ground, or in the case of rings and amulets, had a fairly decent chance of being valuable. That made a drop exciting. Identifying was another thrill, because the base item was already good thanks to largely fixed stats and identifying could only make it better. So there was double excitement regarding drops. There's nothing of the sorts in D3, because the chance of a good legendary is so low and you only know after identifying, which is terrible for the loot hunt feel.

Adding super rare items doesn't help, because A: you never find them B: the one off excitement of finding one doesn't compensate for enduring the boredom before. Like in D2, you need a constant stream of rewards. That doesn't exclude very rare items, but they shouldn't be game changing. As far as I'm concerned D2 improved dramatically after rune drop rates were increased, since they were so central to the game in the end. Tyrael's Might, that wasn't, so it could be ultra rare. But keep the drop rates humane overall.

2. Rewards for finding items, other than just the finding of the item itself? I don't really see that as necessary. In any case it's just a small cosmetic improvement which could be thought of in the hundreds. Same goes for the journal idea, which I of course don't oppose. The core problem is that finding items isn't rewarding because the items suck and that should be addressed to much more satisfactory results.

3. Magic find has already been mangled in so many ways it makes one wonder why it has to exist at all when it causes more trouble than enjoyment. So therefore I do like the suggestion of removing mf from items and paragon. But by no means start rewarding hours long gaming sessions over shorter ones, which is what the suggested nephalem valor seems to do, anymore than they reward just through time spent. Many shorter sessions should be as lucrative over time as a longer session. More tediousness is not what this game needs.

4. Crafting is fundamentally boring compared to loot hunting. Loot hunting needs to be fixed because that is the heart of the prolonged gaming. Crafting can be a nice plus but it shouldn't be something players feel obliged to do constantly because that's where it's at. I can already imagine the endless dullness of farming blue monsters for crafting materials(!) and going to town to craft instead of killing stuff for proper item drops. As someone said, crafting is just glorified, complicated gambling and it should not be a central mechanic by any means in a Diablo game.

5. The mystic is a mystery but having her be a massive gold sink that adds mundane improvements to items isn't something I will drool over. I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad suggestion but I fail to see how it warrants this reaction of second coming of Jesus. It amounts to just more crafting.

6. The skill runes offered by items is an interesting suggestion but nothing about it guarantees “huge depth”. Blizzard can’t create great build diversity with 5 skill runes, nothing points to sixth being the answer. There’s a large likelihood that people will again find the best runes and items and the rest becomes obsolete. Nobody will even care to find some items if they don’t offer the best runes. To me this suggestion seems to unnecessarily complicate an already messy situation. The other legendary suggestions amount to just suggesting new stats, which again could be thought of in the millions and aren’t particularly exciting realistically. Adding new stuff like that doesn’t solve anything, it just changes the problems.

In conclusion I’m sorry if this post comes off as overly negative, but felt the need for balance after all this excitement.
07/24/2013 01:41 PMPosted by Bodhisattwa
Diablo 2 did the excitement right by having many drops that you knew were valuable before even identifying them while they were on the ground, or in the case of rings and amulets, had a fairly decent chance of being valuable. That made a drop exciting. Identifying was another thrill, because the base item was already good thanks to largely fixed stats and identifying could only make it better. So there was double excitement regarding drops. There's nothing of the sorts in D3, because the chance of a good legendary is so low and you only know after identifying, which is terrible for the loot hunt feel.

You couldn't be more spot on. A Shako, Occy, Skullders, and many more items were awesome to find simply because even if it rolled low armor or other stats it was still useful. Making the items have less random stats would be a good direction, but if they do this they should also create a larger range of values for each property. Items would be a bit easier to balance, but there would still be a good difference between a "perfect" and "not perfect" item. Removing random properties completely might not be exactly the right solution, as it would harm potential options if the item didn't even have a chance of rolling a property a specific build was looking for.

I miss the days of playing D2 and seeing an item drop that I knew was going to be good. Sometimes I'd even close my eyes while identifying it and slowly peak to see the stats I rolled. It was double the excitement, and it was hard to be disappointed no matte the turn out.


In conclusion I’m sorry if this post comes off as overly negative, but felt the need for balance after all this excitement.


You had very good constructive criticism, that's exactly what I want to see ;)
Great read and even better ideas OP!
heh, shako.

Seriously. As far as drops and loot quality goes, D2 was not much better then D3. D2 was just "easier" to gear up, for various reasons, as the content was not as demanding like in D3.

But at the end of the day, if you really wanted great items, they have been just as rare. And that meant if you played the game the "normal" way, you had almost no chance to get them.

Seriously, I love(d) D2 for what it was as well, but you really should not see the game trough nostaliga alone, it WAS awesome, back then. Today? I also remember the FRUSTRATION D2 could cause, because it was hard and difficult to get your hands on the great runewords for example. And if I am honest, I would neither want a system like D2 either. Today at least. As it doesnt really give you a progression, at least at some point. Thats why over time the developers of D2 made the drops of runes more and more common, although it still was very likely that most people never ever found a Zod rune ... so much to D2s "awesome" loot.

What D2 had, was some debth, and that is what D3 lacks as well. D2 had a lot of options for different chars and builds.

What D3 needs is a progression for players outside the AH/RMAH and RNG.
Blizzard!!!! This is a great mind! ±'
That was one of best posts I've ever read on any forum, ever. I read the whole thing. While I don't agree 100% with everything you've proposed, you're clearly much more fit to get things on track than anyone employed on the present Diablo team.

Like many, I'm an old school Diablo fan. Back to the SoJ currency in Diablo II, and before it. I remember when finding a Windforce could pay a month's rent if you sold it on eBay. Despite my fond memories of my past with Diablo, I havn't touched Diablo 3 in... hell, I can't even remember when, and the piss poor itemization and loot system is a gigantic part of why. It contributes to the massive looming problem in this game that is the complete and utter lack of anything that even hints at the notion of DEPTH.

What's interesting though is that, having read your post, I feel like you probably put more effort into your post and explaining your ideas behind things and supporting them than the entire team that worked on Diablo's itemization/loot systems, combined; and that's just pitiful on their part.

To make a longer praise short, I don't think I'd mind at all if Blizzard hired YOU specifically to lead the front in this area of the game.

It absolutely sucks that the "successor" to what might be my favorite game of all time is without question one of my most hated games ever. I cannot stand Diablo 3, and unlike many who are able to enjoy it, I just can't. Even the last few months I did play it were dedicated to finding items to make spare change to pay for liquor and bar runs. My memories of its endlessly better ancestor won't let me accept Diablo 3 as anything but a cruel joke in its current form. The only reason I even still give a damn about the series is PURELY the nostalgia I have for my past with the Diablo franchise, and that just ain't enough to make me continue to torture myself.

I really hope Blizzard reads this and takes it to heart, and I hope you find yourself with one fat paycheck to hopefully get financially reimbursed for your thoughts and efforts here.
Give this man the job he was destined for.
heh, shako.

Seriously. As far as drops and loot quality goes, D2 was not much better then D3. D2 was just "easier" to gear up, for various reasons, as the content was not as demanding like in D3.

But at the end of the day, if you really wanted great items, they have been just as rare. And that meant if you played the game the "normal" way, you had almost no chance to get them.

Seriously, I love(d) D2 for what it was as well, but you really should not see the game trough nostaliga alone, it WAS awesome, back then. Today? I also remember the FRUSTRATION D2 could cause, because it was hard and difficult to get your hands on the great runewords for example. And if I am honest, I would neither want a system like D2 either. Today at least. As it doesnt really give you a progression, at least at some point. Thats why over time the developers of D2 made the drops of runes more and more common, although it still was very likely that most people never ever found a Zod rune ... so much to D2s "awesome" loot.

What D2 had, was some debth, and that is what D3 lacks as well. D2 had a lot of options for different chars and builds.

What D3 needs is a progression for players outside the AH/RMAH and RNG.


Amen. Sick of people saying how D2 was different, when in reality is suffered from a lot of the same exact things. I often wonder how many of the people on the forums actually played D2 seriously.

D2 was so easy to walk through, there were builds that you could play naked.....no joke. I think you hit it perfectly on that D3 is more demanding and to be as efficient as people were in D2, you have to have much rarer gear than you needed in D2. Problem is, while the demand for elite gear is way stronger in D3, the supply is very low an unattainable for most people.
Bump....to keep this at the top...for all devs to see (if they even read the forums lol) heck this should be sticky'd....
So maybe you're rocking a Maximus and you find a Warmonger, wouldn't it be cool if by just finding a weapon of the same type you just increased your two-handed sword damage by 1%. Better yet, if the bonuses were account wide similar to achievements, you could find something on your Barbarian that could potentially give a small boost to another class.


Yes OMG yes. Devs should stop reading this post and start implementing this immediately. Get programming!
i don't read such wall of text.. I do read great suggestions and ideas.. so.. we all know how that went ;)

I agree on many aspects of what OP said.. most of it I believe.. the MF factor's ON DEATH reduction.. isn't something I really want at first.. but that WILL give DEATH a MEANING.. not like now in SC wherein.. "oh I died, hm. k."

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