Evidence proving 100% HotA bonus CHC

Barbarian
From a previous thread http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9659595871?page=2#26

d3rawr have just put in a text box where you can enter your fury level as a precursor to improving HotA calcs. However, they need to know if the cost of HotA is removed before or after the bonus is calculated. Any help appreciated.

Nubtro's recommendations for testing: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9661806145#5

abend's test data: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9661806145#11 and http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9661806145#12

Conclusion: HotA bonus CHC is calculated before the fury cost of HotA is removed. Therefore, the maximum CHC of HotA is 100%.

EDIT: How rude of me - thanks to Nubtro and Shaman for their advice/help.
OK, I've been trying to find different ways to test this.

I was hoping that I could but HotA on my skill bar and repeatedly activate it while holding my mouse over my fury globe so you could see what was happening there. Unfortunately, you need to target HotA so I had to find an alternative.

It turns out that once you press and hold the HotA skill key that you can then move your mouse wherever without disrupting HotA. So, in the video below, when you see me holding my mouse above my fury globe it means that I am only dealing my damage via HotA. When I move my mouse, it's usually to Bash and top up my fury globe. No other skills were used.

I ran a build with no innate fury regen other than BR:ITF.

Here is the gear and build I used: http://www.d3rawr.com/d-xHQ7z

My CHC fully buffed, including Anatomy buff from Scoundrel, is 88.5%. Therefore, in order to test 100% crit HotA I needed to ensure that my fury never dropped below 57.5, which is the minimum amount of fury needed to get me with the HotA CHC bonus to 100%.

I tried to test on Ghom but it became hard to regenerate enough fury to have sustained periods of HotA captured on video, so I went to Siegebreaker. The disadvantage is that the fury globe ticks you see per HotA also include the fury regenerated from sustaining damage from SB. Hence, it's not a very clear picture of fury costs/gain per HotA.

Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ItRBNujjrM&feature=youtu.be

As you can see, while my mouse is over my fury globe you see only yellow critical hit numbers. And since I kept my fury above 57.5, one can assume that this is a result of the HotA CHC bonus capping at 100%.

Seeing 100% of my HotA were critical hits, this can only mean that the HotA CHC bonus is applied before the game calculates and applies fury costs/gains.

I realise this is a simplistic test and rests on some assumptions that aren't observed. So, if anyone else has any info/feedback, it would be welcome.
Part of the reason I am doing this is to enhance the d3rawr HotA DPS calcs.

Just today they added a "Fury" field in the HotA box on the Skills tab after I made a feature request.

They had 2 questions:

1. Does the HotA CHC bonus go beyond the hard CHC caps or can it increase your CHC to 100%?

2. Is the HotA CHC bonus calculated before or after the fury cost of HotA is removed.

I think the video and other testing I've been doing this evening shows:

1. HotA CHC cap is 100% (the bonus applies after the hard caps described here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7708952515?page=1#18

2. Don't know, probably before.

Therefore, the way d3rawr is using the Fury field is as follows:

HotA CHC = CHC from gear and skills up to cap + (Fury/5)

If HotA CHC > 100, then HotA CHC = 100

This is the feedback I will be passing on unless someone else can provide better information.
Props for testing it. But he way you tested, imo doesnt give a good view on the matter.

I suggest you lowering your crit chance to 81-84 buffed without bonus and 100 fury, or less if you have more fury(110-114 fury, keep it between 79-82), so that the 25 fury cost from HOTA, makes the difference between 100% cc or less.

That's because the fury stays always capped, that way it will always be in the portion where the 25 cost makes a difference, if you get a white hit we know for sure that is is calculated after, if you don't, we have good evidence that it is calculated before.
I should probably train some people how to do tests.

The easiest way to test full fury globe HotA is Ghom and use Superstition, Animosity and IK 5 set bonus and/or Unforgiving. Equip a shield, use OPKS etc. whatever is needed to get to 80% crit chance (need Ruthless for this or WotB, Battle Rage won´t be enough) and smash with fully fury.

Activate damage and critical damage numbers and record. Slower aps is probably better so that the other fury generation tools will get you back to full before the next smash, otherwise just take a short break between smashes.

At 80% CC and 100 max fury you should always crit if the formula is actual fury/5. If the formula is (actual fury - HotA cost) / 5 then you should get a white number every 25 hits on average.

Sorry I don´t feel like doing this test myself today, maybe in the next couple of days if noone else does it.
^
Batman doesn't train people to fight crime. When the bat signal is lit, he comes to our aid and so does N00btro. :)
Anyways, great discussion going on. I hope they come up with an accurate calculation for hota dps. D3rawr is great, but it's been missing that IMO.
08/14/2013 09:58 AMPosted by Nubtro
I should probably train some people how to do tests.


08/14/2013 11:30 AMPosted by Llama
Batman doesn't train people to fight crime. When the bat signal is lit, he comes to our aid and so does N00btro. :)

Thanks for the feedback, otherwise Gotham would be filled with my derps :D

I agree it's not the best way to test this and I feel Shaman's method would give an accurate reflection of what's happening to our fury globes during this time, but I simply can't get the conditions right to test it that way - i.e. get fury to right level, ensure Scoundrel has monster frozen so no fury is generated from damage taken and then activate HotA.

But I think I come close enough to Nubtro's approach?

  • In that video I'm using a Stormshield with 10%CHC so that I'm at 88.5% CHC from buffs and gear.
  • Rather than using Animosity, Superstition and IK5 I used SB's RD to help regen fury and keep me topped up. Nubtro: I'm assuming you recommended these skills/items to keep fury at 100% for ~100% of the time?
  • I keep my mouse over the fury globe while doing HotA so you can see what's happening there. That is, it provides proof that I am staying above the necessary fury level to have 100% HotA CHC after bonus = (100-88.5)*5 = 57.5 fury.

The aim of my test, was to get enough HotA attacks captured on video while my mouse was over the fury globe so that others could see my HotA damage numbers while above the fury threshold for 100% HotA CHC. So, really the only "data" in that video is when I have my mouse over the fury globe - at other times in the video I may be doing Bash strikes to replenish fury, but I'm not doing anything else.

The other thing I did was to ignore the small white and yellow numbers - these were my scoundrel.

I don't have IK helm and boots in my stash, but I'm happy to get these after work tonight if I'm on (forgive me for being so out of sync with you guys but I am in the southern hemisphere). I'm going to be away from the game until Tuesday next week, so if I can't do it tonight and no-one else tries in the meantime, I'll try it again next week.
I can only offer myself in this test since I'd like to know the outcome as well. I have always maintained the IK5 set whilst keeping at enough fury and CHC to be at the 100% crit for HotA. Currently I am at 100.5%.

I have always been interested in the fury return factor without a negative factor like offered in the SoJ to HotA. There are many a times I can solo hit a monster without a fury generator and maintain a full globe, yet other times it seems to drain excessively fast (like health link monsters). I do have to question the return when adding a minus factor to HotA since I have always tried to maintain the capability...I say always, probably for about a year now to be more accurate.

Of course I am not a mathematician but certain things seem to be a no brainer to me. Depending on where I farm I change my 3rd passive from Beserker Rage to Unforgiving (Unforgiving gives me an edge for speed farming). Of course that is simply a modest "feels good" versus a proven fact.

Let's test this and get the data out there for everyone.
08/14/2013 09:58 AMPosted by Nubtro
The easiest way to test full fury globe HotA is Ghom and use Superstition, Animosity and IK 5 set bonus and/or Unforgiving. Equip a shield, use OPKS etc. whatever is needed to get to 80% crit chance (need Ruthless for this or WotB, Battle Rage won´t be enough) and smash with fully fury.

Before we go testing this, I think we need to clarify something about the requirements here: if you have IK5, then your max fury is always going to be > 100. For example, your IK belt might have +15 max fury and IK5 set bonus is +5 max fury = 120 max fury. Therefore, when testing with an IK5 set you need to take into account your additional max fury when calculating the CHC you need to have from gear and skills.

Using the example above:
Max fury = 15 from IK belt + 5 from IK5 set bonus + 100 innate max fury = 120 max fury
CHC from gear/skills required for testing = 100 - (120/5) = exactly 76% CHC

If I'm right in how I've interpreted Nubtro's recommendations, you simply need to apply the logic above based on your own max fury levels.

On another note, if I'm not mistaken, the idea behind Nubtro's suggestion is that the build and gear are designed to allow as close to 100% of all HotA attacks under test conditions to take place at max fury. For this reason, I would use the build recommended by Nubtro against SB because the RD will help to ensure you keep fury topped off.

Any thoughts? I'm at work right now, but will try to test later tonight if I can.
Also, when recording the test, I think it would be best to do as I did: press and hold HotA attack, then move mouse to fury globe to capture what is happening there. I did this because sometimes when you are 1 or 2 fury below your max it is not easily discernible. And under these test conditions, being 1 under max fury your HotA crit chance will be < 100%. So it's important, I think, to have video evidence that your fury globe was at max the whole time.
I've done some testing...

RUN 1

Gear and build as per Nubtro's recommendations: http://www.d3rawr.com/d-6vQHG

Full data collected from video analysis: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkEn_GPdtsNydFEtQ09MM1ZmYXZldkNNSjYyTWxXOWc&usp=sharing

Video evidence:
Slow motion version: http://youtu.be/qNDLWRRD0Tw
Normal speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdVAkK1CwxM&feature=youtu.be

I did a frame-by-frame analysis of fury ticks and damage ticks follwing Nubtro's research about the 3 phases of a HotA attack in the HotA breakpoint thread: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568958682?page=5#83

What I recorded for each attack was the damage tick and fury cost (t) and the fury prior to that tick (t-1). The assumption being tested is that the game calculates HotA CHC bonus using the fury globe in t-1.

Summary data:
No. of HotA attacks observed = 179
No. of critical hits = 179 (100%)
No. of non-critical hits = 0 (0%)
No. of HotA attacks observed at max fury = 177
Critical hits observed at max fury (t-1) = 177 (100%)
Critical hits observed at max fury (t-1) = 0 (0%)
Average fury cost per HotA attack = 4.06

Frequency table of HotA fury costs observed
Cost n
-2* 2
-1 0
0 54
1 0
2 90
3 1
4 0
5 0
6 3
7 0
8 0
9 4
10 0
11 0
12 0
13 1
14 0
15 0
16 0
17 0
18 0
19 0
20 24

* -2 fury cost means I observed a 2 fury gain.

EDIT: Realised that last 25 HotA attacks observed occurred without BR. This explains the non-crits at max fury because I would have been at 97% HotA CHC (assuming bonus is calculated before removing HotA fury cost). Updated data accordingly to exclude these observations.
EDIT: Removed prematurely formulated comments...

RUN 2

Gear and build as per Nubtro's recommendations: http://www.d3rawr.com/d-6vQHG

Full data collected from video analysis: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkEn_GPdtsNydFEtQ09MM1ZmYXZldkNNSjYyTWxXOWc&usp=sharing

Video evidence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlK_0NawIJM&feature=youtu.be

I did a frame-by-frame analysis of fury ticks and damage ticks follwing Nubtro's research about the 3 phases of a HotA attack in the HotA breakpoint thread: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568958682?page=5#83

What I recorded for each attack was the damage tick and fury cost (t) and the fury prior to that tick (t-1). The assumption being tested is that the game calculates HotA CHC bonus using the fury globe in t-1.

Summary data:
No. of HotA attacks observed = 178
No. of critical hits = 178 (100%)
No. of non-critical hits = 0 (0%)
No. of HotA attacks observed at max fury = 177
Critical hits observed at max fury (t-1) = 177 (100%)
Critical hits observed at max fury (t-1) = 0 (0%)
Average fury cost per HotA attack = 3.70

Frequency table of HotA fury costs observed
Cost n
-2 1
-1 0
0 82
1 0
2 58
3 0
4 0
5 0
6 2
7 0
8 0
9 5
10 0
11 0
12 0
13 12
14 0
15 0
16 7
17 0
18 0
19 0
20 11

* -2 fury cost means I observed a 2 fury gain.
I would say the data conclusively shows:

HotA bonus CHC is calculated before the fury cost of HotA is removed. Therefore, the maximum CHC of HotA is 100%.
I would say the data conclusively shows:

HotA bonus CHC is calculated before the fury cost of HotA is removed. Therefore, the maximum CHC of HotA is 100%.


So you are saying... with the right fury base and critical chance ...-hota sojs are not essential? :$
ty and nice findings.
One of the last things that needed to be tested, ty Abend, seems legit :D
-hota soj's are still essential because the proc for into the fray is not 100%, it's 80% iirc for hota-smash. Which means that with a full globe you may crit 100% of the time, but you aren't going to get back fury 100% of the time you crit, meaning that single target your globe will eventually fall depending on the amount of damage you are taking and how fast you are swinging, putting you at less than 100%.

In order to bypass the -hota soj, you would need to go above the 100% full globe hota chance, that way when your fury is consumed by not proccing ITF, you can maintain 100% hota cc longer.

IE a buffed CC of 85%, + IK belt and SOJ w/ 15 max fury giving you 130 fury / 5 = 26% hota crit chance = 111% hota crit chance.

Say you had something like that, and you failed an ITF proc - you consume 20 fury (no hota soj), going from 111% to 107%, say you fail another ITF PROC you go to 103%, another - go to 99%, etc. something like that could possibly work in order to counter the ITF proc rate.
08/15/2013 08:08 PMPosted by Lightofeast
So you are saying... with the right fury base and critical chance ...-hota sojs are not essential? :$

Like tom showed, you can easily drop below 100% HotA CHC within a few HotA attacks that don't proc ITF. So, like a -HotA SoJ, high CHC and a large fury base prolongs how many 100% CHC HotA you get in.

To maintain 100% CHC HotA bonus, you also need to be able to regenerate up to 20 fury between attacks. This is why Nubtro suggested the passives he did and a shield since it would provide up to 10% CHC and slow down my attacks to give me more time to regenerate fury before the next attack.

The build RAiN had been trying out is probably one of the better attempts at finding that balance between fury management and optimising HotA CHC.

I also think WW/HotA hybrid can be good too - on first engagement, WW/RLTW once around a pack to drop some nados and then hammer away to get half your tDPS PLUS full HotA damage for a few seconds.

Anyway, just so you know: d3rawr have implemented a Fury user input field in the HotA box on the Skill tab. You can enter whatever level of fury you want in there and the d3rawr will use this to include the CHC bonus into the HotA DPS calcs.
Bro, no matter how u stack cc you still cant have 100% hota period.

Im too old in this game to know :)

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