To those asking for a jade idol nerf

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01/12/2017 04:48 AMPosted by Ranefer
01/11/2017 07:40 AMPosted by Kleinriese
It is not "infinite" when it stops at turn 80.
There exists an element of the natural numbers which is equal to the value.
"Infinite" is NOT a member of the set of natural numbers.
You're not that good at math, are you.


Considering maths is my job, I'd say I'm quite above the average. This isn't about the literal definition of 'infinite'; we're talking about the rules set by the game, meaning nothing can ever be infinite due to the constrictions placed upon us by the game rules. However, within the confined of this game, this is as close to infinite as it gets. You could even go as far as saying this is Lim(X) X-> infinity, given the right circumstances. If you want, I can definitely give you a maximum value here, given the 80 round limit, on the size of the golems given the right setup.

You're being a pedant, arguing semantics instead of the actual issue. THAT is why you're being called an idiot.

Although I guess "a**hole" would be a better word to use.


YOU were the one who was MISUSING the term "infinite" to begin with, knowing very well how incorrect it was, according to your own words.
But saying "too much value" doesn't quite have the appeal as saying "INFINITE VALUE ZOMGNERF", does it?

Further, what is the threshold where a card has "too much value" and how was it determined?
How come you get to define some arbitrary measures in order to make the card be in line?
The JD whine gives the impression that whenever either control warrior or control priest are outclassed, it's the end of the world.
It is not.
It just means that CW or CP are no longer the decks that if they manage to survive the first wave of attack, they automatically win.

So. You keep coining the false term for this affair, feel entitled to give advice on how to fix the game but for some reason yet *I* am the a*hole.
SURE THING, MATE.
The Jade Druid deck has a very appealing late-game. You know how in StarCraft 1 it was fun to turtle in your base forever and come out with twenty Battlecruisers and steamroll the AI? Jade Druid is like that. If you make it to the late game, you’re a big favorite against almost everyone. It is comforting to know that your late game will take care of itself while you focus on gaining advantage in the immediate term, and it is fun to demolish your opponent with a ton of giant Golems. That’s why we made Jade Idol.

Most of the complaints I see about Jade Druid focus around Jade Idol. Having Jade Idol in your deck means you’ll beat grindy attrition-focused decks that don’t actively do anything other than kill all your stuff and win while you’re in fatigue. Some folks don’t like that. Now, it is neat that the occasional deck uses fatigue as part of its strategy; it adds texture to Hearthstone and is something to think about when you’re building decks and playing games. Jade Idol layers on even more texture: it forces those deeply attritive decks to take an aggressive stance in their Druid matchup, which isn’t something those decks usually have to do. That makes those games very different, which is great.

The designers don’t have anything against control decks. We don’t even have anything against the occasional fatigue deck; mill Rogue and mill Druid have been things in the past, and the only really active step we took to avoid those decks was not making a card that said ‘when you target this minion with a spell, copy that spell on every other minion in play.’ (It broke with Naturalize.) We do prefer when games end before fatigue, and we do think control decks should have a more active endgame than merely having a bunch of removal spells, so we were okay that Jade Idol made fatigue decks worse and forced control decks to think about more proactive strategies. We are not trying to kill control decks, nor have we; people play control Warrior less, but they play other control decks more. I think it’s had a positive effect on the metagame.
Well alright then. They prefer faster games and they enjoy that fatigue decks can be destroyed by one card. There's no point bringing this up anymore. There will probably be more cards like Jade Idol going forward.

01/13/2017 01:53 PMPosted by Max McCall
Jade Idol layers on even more texture: it forces those deeply attritive decks to take an aggressive stance in their Druid matchup, which isn’t something those decks usually have to do. That makes those games very different


Quite. Playing the opposite role that your deck was expressly built for is one of the most effective ways to lose consistently.

I mean you're basically implying that it would be great if there was a card that forced aggro decks to try to out-value control decks, no?

Or if aggro decks had a card that made it so control decks absolutely could not win the long game no matter what they did; that would be great because it would force them to play aggro with their control decks, right?

What about if there was a card that, merely by virtue of being in my deck, forced combo decks to try to win in fatigue?

Am I overreacting?

Jade Idol offers no counterplay to the infinite-deck aspect. You just know that your primary win condition has a 0% chance of working, no matter how you draw, when you see Jade Idol played against your fatigue deck.
Most of the complaints I see about Jade Druid focus around Jade Idol. Having Jade Idol in your deck means you’ll beat grindy attrition-focused decks that don’t actively do anything other than kill all your stuff and win while you’re in fatigue. Some folks don’t like that. Now, it is neat that the occasional deck uses fatigue as part of its strategy; it adds texture to Hearthstone and is something to think about when you’re building decks and playing games. Jade Idol layers on even more texture: it forces those deeply attritive decks to take an aggressive stance in their Druid matchup, which isn’t something those decks usually have to do. That makes those games very different, which is great.

[/quote]

I can't speak for everyone, but I honestly don't like attrition decks. For me, they suck the fun out of the game. I just don't find any fun what so ever in facing a deck that literally only looks to remove everything I do until I have nothing left.

I'm personally relieved we have Jade to destroy them.
The problem with that reasoning is that many control decks go for a late game combo or "savings" (cthun/Nzoth), and aren't able to "switch" to a more aggressive stance, they're built to survive aggro and try to have interplay that results in better trades in trade for the early game damage.

It's impossible to trade well with Jade Idol though. There is no way to deal with it past a certain point and it basically turns into an auto-loss for the control deck unless they draw into a very lucky curve to play "semi-aggro".
01/13/2017 02:04 PMPosted by Sovereign

Jade Idol offers no counterplay to the infinite-deck aspect. You just know that your primary win condition has a 0% chance of working, no matter how you draw, when you see Jade Idol played against your fatigue deck.


By all means, Jade Idol is a strong card and it will let a druid beat fatigue warrior. That alone is not a very good argument for nerfing it.

I do believe someone said this already: "Counterspell".

If you want to play fatigue AND be favored against Jade Druid, you Counterspell.

If that is not your thing, then, sadly, your fatigue decks will not have a favorable matchup against that specific meta deck. Maybe deal with it.
Thanks, Max, for being the first Blue to address the Jade Idol question.

There is a small, but vocal, minority in the forum that are making some pretty Chicken Little arguments. I've heard them say that Jade Idol alone "limits all future design space for the whole game" and "Jade Idol alone makes all Control decks unplayable" and so on. I doubt your more reasoned and reserved comments are going to do much to assuage those who have succumbed to this sort of hyperbole, but it is nice to see that the dev team is not taking what they say as gospel truth when - in reality - the truth is not that apocalyptic.

The problem with that reasoning is that many control decks go for a late game combo or "savings" (cthun/Nzoth), and aren't able to "switch" to a more aggressive stance, they're built to survive aggro and try to have interplay that results in better trades in trade for the early game damage. It's impossible to trade well with Jade Idol though...


He is saying that a Control deck SHOULDN'T be trying to out-trade Jade Druid. He's saying that the Control decks that you describe need to be more aggressive than they would normally be and should instead focus on very targeted, weighed, and deliberate trading in favor of a more aggressive approach than they would normally use. It puts pressure on them to not just trade & wipe, but to do more limited trading and go face to beat the Jade Druid before they are overwhelmed.
01/13/2017 02:32 PMPosted by Randomatron
01/13/2017 02:04 PMPosted by Sovereign

Jade Idol offers no counterplay to the infinite-deck aspect. You just know that your primary win condition has a 0% chance of working, no matter how you draw, when you see Jade Idol played against your fatigue deck.


By all means, Jade Idol is a strong card and it will let a druid beat fatigue warrior. That alone is not a very good argument for nerfing it.

I do believe someone said this already: "Counterspell".

If you want to play fatigue AND be favored against Jade Druid, you Counterspell.

If that is not your thing, then, sadly, your fatigue decks will not have a favorable matchup against that specific meta deck. Maybe deal with it.


LOL
0/10
Not even worth a real reply, sorry.
01/13/2017 02:42 PMPosted by Sovereign
01/13/2017 02:32 PMPosted by Randomatron
...

By all means, Jade Idol is a strong card and it will let a druid beat fatigue warrior. That alone is not a very good argument for nerfing it.

I do believe someone said this already: "Counterspell".

If you want to play fatigue AND be favored against Jade Druid, you Counterspell.

If that is not your thing, then, sadly, your fatigue decks will not have a favorable matchup against that specific meta deck. Maybe deal with it.


LOL
0/10
Not even worth a real reply, sorry.


You're not even subtle with your down voting on everyone who is in agreement with Jade decks. For someone who's complaining about their enjoyment, you seem to have no problem turning a blind eye to the enjoyment of others that straight lose to fatigue decks.

At least Aggro doesn't take nearly half an hour to hand a loss to their opponent. Fatigue decks are the embodiment of 'anti-fun' in this game. Stretching games out as long as possible, refusing to make any kind of proactive play and instead rely solely on reactive until the opponent runs empty.

Now you get to feel what other players felt, now that there's a deck that reliably beats fatigue.
As someone who plays reno priest 90% of the time since december season, i can appreciate a good priest vs jade druid matchup. Feels good to rush them down with a control deck
01/13/2017 02:50 PMPosted by Alpha
At least Aggro doesn't take nearly half an hour to hand a loss to their opponent. Fatigue decks are the embodiment of 'anti-fun' in this game. Stretching games out as long as possible, refusing to make any kind of proactive play and instead rely solely on reactive until the opponent runs empty.


I'll ignore the troll parts of your post and focus on the substance. You're acting like I take all this personally. I play virtually every deck there is, man. I'm not some kind of fatigue fiend :P

Blizzard agrees with you. They prefer faster games. They have no problem with cards that completely demolish fatigue decks.

To each his own. I enjoy fast games; I enjoy slow games. I enjoy turn 1 kills in MTG. I enjoy 6 player chaos that takes all night. Your "anti-fun" is someone else's fun, or fatigue decks would not exist.

As a general rule, though, the shorter the game the less strategy was involved. I enjoy strategy games. When an entire game is lost before the game started because I have a perfect curve and you don't, it's far less satisfying for both of us.

A passive strategy has worked in CCGs for decades. It was also apparently intended as a viable strategy here until recently, but things change. That's fine.
01/13/2017 02:58 PMPosted by Sovereign
01/13/2017 02:50 PMPosted by Alpha
At least Aggro doesn't take nearly half an hour to hand a loss to their opponent. Fatigue decks are the embodiment of 'anti-fun' in this game. Stretching games out as long as possible, refusing to make any kind of proactive play and instead rely solely on reactive until the opponent runs empty.


I'll ignore the troll parts of your post and focus on the substance. You're acting like I take all this personally.


01/13/2017 02:42 PMPosted by Sovereign
LOL
0/10
Not even worth a real reply, sorry.
The problem with that reasoning is that many control decks go for a late game combo or "savings" (cthun/Nzoth), and aren't able to "switch" to a more aggressive stance, they're built to survive aggro and try to have interplay that results in better trades in trade for the early game damage. It's impossible to trade well with Jade Idol though...


He is saying that a Control deck SHOULDN'T be trying to out-trade Jade Druid. He's saying that the Control decks that you describe need to be more aggressive than they would normally be and should instead focus on very targeted, weighed, and deliberate trading in favor of a more aggressive approach than they would normally use. It puts pressure on them to not just trade & wipe, but to do more limited trading and go face to beat the Jade Druid before they are overwhelmed.


...You kind of ignored the part in there where I explain how many decks can't be more aggressive barring a perfect draw, and you ignored my 2nd paragraph completely...
01/16/2017 01:13 PMPosted by Migol
...You kind of ignored the part in there where I explain how many decks can't be more aggressive barring a perfect draw, and you ignored my 2nd paragraph completely...

If they are built more aggressively (i.e. Control Warrior, not Fatigue Warrior), then that avenue often will become available to them. A Fatigue Warrior will never beat a Jade Druid, while a Control Warrior with either a N'Zoth package or a Grommash/Alexstrasza package will sometimes beat a Jade Druid.

It's the same situation for a Reno Mage; a Fatigue Reno Mage wil almost never beat a Jade Druid, while a Burn Reno Mage, with an Alexstrasza/Inkmaster package will sometimes beat a Jade Druid.

This is one way of forcefully injecting variety into deck builds. I'm not saying that it's necessarily right, but there is at least some merit to the technique.
01/13/2017 03:11 PMPosted by Alpha
01/13/2017 02:58 PMPosted by Sovereign
...

I'll ignore the troll parts of your post and focus on the substance. You're acting like I take all this personally.


01/13/2017 02:42 PMPosted by Sovereign
LOL
0/10
Not even worth a real reply, sorry.


Alright, I'll ignore you.
01/13/2017 01:53 PMPosted by Max McCall
The Jade Druid deck has a very appealing late-game. You know how in StarCraft 1 it was fun to turtle in your base forever and come out with twenty Battlecruisers and steamroll the AI? Jade Druid is like that. If you make it to the late game, you’re a big favorite against almost everyone. It is comforting to know that your late game will take care of itself while you focus on gaining advantage in the immediate term, and it is fun to demolish your opponent with a ton of giant Golems. That’s why we made Jade Idol.

Most of the complaints I see about Jade Druid focus around Jade Idol. Having Jade Idol in your deck means you’ll beat grindy attrition-focused decks that don’t actively do anything other than kill all your stuff and win while you’re in fatigue. Some folks don’t like that. Now, it is neat that the occasional deck uses fatigue as part of its strategy; it adds texture to Hearthstone and is something to think about when you’re building decks and playing games. Jade Idol layers on even more texture: it forces those deeply attritive decks to take an aggressive stance in their Druid matchup, which isn’t something those decks usually have to do. That makes those games very different, which is great.

The designers don’t have anything against control decks. We don’t even have anything against the occasional fatigue deck; mill Rogue and mill Druid have been things in the past, and the only really active step we took to avoid those decks was not making a card that said ‘when you target this minion with a spell, copy that spell on every other minion in play.’ (It broke with Naturalize.) We do prefer when games end before fatigue, and we do think control decks should have a more active endgame than merely having a bunch of removal spells, so we were okay that Jade Idol made fatigue decks worse and forced control decks to think about more proactive strategies. We are not trying to kill control decks, nor have we; people play control Warrior less, but they play other control decks more. I think it’s had a positive effect on the metagame.


McCall agree 100%

I played control Warrior last season...

Fatigued 2 Renolocks and Grommoshed a few Jade Druids...

A mostly unfavorable match up... But their few taunts are easy to remove and will placed Brawl or 2 will get you there...

Although you need a good draw early

01/13/2017 02:19 PMPosted by Alpha
Most of the complaints I see about Jade Druid focus around Jade Idol. Having Jade Idol in your deck means you’ll beat grindy attrition-focused decks that don’t actively do anything other than kill all your stuff and win while you’re in fatigue. Some folks don’t like that. Now, it is neat that the occasional deck uses fatigue as part of its strategy; it adds texture to Hearthstone and is something to think about when you’re building decks and playing games. Jade Idol layers on even more texture: it forces those deeply attritive decks to take an aggressive stance in their Druid matchup, which isn’t something those decks usually have to do. That makes those games very different, which is great.



I can't speak for everyone, but I honestly don't like attrition decks. For me, they suck the fun out of the game. I just don't find any fun what so ever in facing a deck that literally only looks to remove everything I do until I have nothing left.

I'm personally relieved we have Jade to destroy them.[/quote]
01/13/2017 01:53 PMPosted by Max McCall
The Jade Druid deck has a very appealing late-game. You know how in StarCraft 1 it was fun to turtle in your base forever and come out with twenty Battlecruisers and steamroll the AI? Jade Druid is like that. If you make it to the late game, you’re a big favorite against almost everyone. It is comforting to know that your late game will take care of itself while you focus on gaining advantage in the immediate term, and it is fun to demolish your opponent with a ton of giant Golems. That’s why we made Jade Idol.

Most of the complaints I see about Jade Druid focus around Jade Idol. Having Jade Idol in your deck means you’ll beat grindy attrition-focused decks that don’t actively do anything other than kill all your stuff and win while you’re in fatigue. Some folks don’t like that. Now, it is neat that the occasional deck uses fatigue as part of its strategy; it adds texture to Hearthstone and is something to think about when you’re building decks and playing games. Jade Idol layers on even more texture: it forces those deeply attritive decks to take an aggressive stance in their Druid matchup, which isn’t something those decks usually have to do. That makes those games very different, which is great.

The designers don’t have anything against control decks. We don’t even have anything against the occasional fatigue deck; mill Rogue and mill Druid have been things in the past, and the only really active step we took to avoid those decks was not making a card that said ‘when you target this minion with a spell, copy that spell on every other minion in play.’ (It broke with Naturalize.) We do prefer when games end before fatigue, and we do think control decks should have a more active endgame than merely having a bunch of removal spells, so we were okay that Jade Idol made fatigue decks worse and forced control decks to think about more proactive strategies. We are not trying to kill control decks, nor have we; people play control Warrior less, but they play other control decks more. I think it’s had a positive effect on the metagame.

Lame excuses. I'm curious to see what will happen when Reno get kicked out of standard. Then we'll have zero viable control decks, since jade idol alone kill a whole archetype.

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