The worst thing about standard...

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Okay, so tell me how would a revolving set of Classic blocks benefit new players? Genuinely curious.
01/06/2017 02:00 PMPosted by JeanBombeur
It would be smarter to offer more formats than Standard and Wild but Blizzard is stubborn.


Serious question, do you believe there is enough demand for additional formats?

I only ask because I was in wild, at R15-16 a couple of days ago and queued into the same player 3 times in a row. I have never experienced that before, let alone at such low ranks.

I'm not saying this is evidence of anything in regards to the popularity of wild, a one off occurrence proves nothing, but it certainly wasnt fun queuing into a hard counter (turns out my Murloc Shaman is no match for Reno Mage) 3 games in a row to the point I insta-conceded the third match, wasn't interested in another 20 minute match just to get my !@# handed to me again.

IDK, I dont think resources (players in this regard) should be spread too thinly or it could lead to an unenjoyable experience for some people in their preferred format. Better to ensure the existing formats are sustainable first.
there are design challenges regardless of having a core set or not.

Example - Fireball & Frostbolt, both are key parts of the Mage identity, a "no core set" rotation would need to include either a straight up re-print or very slightly tweaked versions every year. - and overall that just feels bad because you need to re-buy essentially the same card every year.

otoh if you have a core set, Fireball & Frostbolt are "evergreen" and each new set can focus exclusively on adding new wrinkles to the game.

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That being said, there are some specific neutrals that might need to go away in order to fully make room for new decks & play styles - the aforementioned auctioneer being a prime example - the card is too good not to play in certain decks, but if it is being used it also limits both the types of cards certain classes can get - and what cards ultimately see a lot of play.
The goal with Standard is to keep the meta fresh for each yearly rotation. There are some benefits to keeping Basic and Classic cards in Standard: Returning players have an entry-point to the new format, and new players experience classics like "Hogger" and "Arcane Missiles" that are iconic and great introductions to the game. People take breaks from Hearthstone, and being able to jump right back in with a few cards you already own and understand makes that experience a lot better.

That upside has a real downside in working directly against the big goal for Standard. It needs to feel different each year, and if Basic and Classic cards are still appearing in large densities year after year, we will not be achieving our goals for Standard.

We knew we weren't going to get there when the Year of the Kraken began, so we nerfed 12 basic/classic cards, to put more of the weight of the meta into the rotating sets. We always knew we'd have to watch the meta to see if any future changes would be needed when we got ready for the next year of Standard. If things are looking like they are going to be too same-y for that next year, we could see more nerfs, or we might rotate some additional classic cards to Wild, like we did with Old Murk Eye. No matter what, we're committed to making Standard fresh and exciting each new year.
01/06/2017 04:28 PMPosted by Ben Brode
The goal with Standard is to keep the meta fresh for each yearly rotation. There are some benefits to keeping Basic and Classic cards in Standard: Returning players have an entry-point to the new format, and new players experience classics like "Hogger" and "Arcane Missiles" that are iconic and great introductions to the game. People take breaks from Hearthstone, and being able to jump right back in with a few cards you already own and understand makes that experience a lot better.

That upside has a real downside in working directly against the big goal for Standard. It needs to feel different each year, and if Basic and Classic cards are still appearing in large densities year after year, we will not be achieving our goals for Standard.

We knew we weren't going to get there when the Year of the Kraken began, so we nerfed 12 basic/classic cards, to put more of the weight of the meta into the rotating sets. We always knew we'd have to watch the meta to see if any future changes would be needed when we got ready for the next year of Standard. If things are looking like they are going to be too same-y for that next year, we could see more nerfs, or we might rotate some additional classic cards to Wild, like we did with Old Murk Eye. No matter what, we're committed to making Standard fresh and exciting each new year.

And people say the devs don't pay attention to this forum...
I can't believe it is the real Ben Brode.

Are you guys considering, besides nerfs, implementing buffs for underused vanilla cards?
01/06/2017 04:28 PMPosted by Ben Brode
The goal with Standard is to keep the meta fresh for each yearly rotation. There are some benefits to keeping Basic and Classic cards in Standard: Returning players have an entry-point to the new format, and new players experience classics like "Hogger" and "Arcane Missiles" that are iconic and great introductions to the game. People take breaks from Hearthstone, and being able to jump right back in with a few cards you already own and understand makes that experience a lot better.


Speaking of "classics", any chance of some old favourites making a return to standard? I'm not talking Boom, Sherdders & Loatheb, more Hobgoblins and Recombobulators.

01/06/2017 04:28 PMPosted by Ben Brode
We knew we weren't going to get there when the Year of the Kraken began, so we nerfed 12 basic/classic cards, to put more of the weight of the meta into the rotating sets. We always knew we'd have to watch the meta to see if any future changes would be needed when we got ready for the next year of Standard. If things are looking like they are going to be too same-y for that next year, we could see more nerfs, or we might rotate some additional classic cards to Wild, like we did with Old Murk Eye. No matter what, we're committed to making Standard fresh and exciting each new year.


Obviously I cant speak for everyone, but I personally would prefer cards to be moved to wild in order to achieve that, especially if it prevents the castration of iconic decks (what Molten did to Handlock, for example). At least allow players to play the old favourites in wild should they choose instead of destroying them - I am aware that some players are still trying to make Handlock work, but without Moltens its not the same.

That is not to say that balance changes should be avoided and just dump problematic cards into wild, far from it, more those thatt are being done to "spice up the meta".
The worst thing about Standard is being a player who likes Priest.

Yes, they did give Priest a viable deck this time around, and Dragon Priest is tier above where I figured it would end up. And there is potential for it to climb higher, if only more people would play Reno Mage.

But the Basic / Classic set of Priest is just awful compared to the other classes. So many cards that'll just never be practical to run in the kind of meta that this game churns out. Not even as a question of value, just as a question of effect. Buffs are just generally bad in this game, drawing from your opponent's deck is not as good as drawing from your own, and the nukes are inflexible (Mind Blast) or overcosted (Holy Fire). Hardly any minions, and no synergy for a deck that runs a lot of spells.

Velen is just the worst Class Legendary in the game, not because it's effect is bad, but because there are no good cards to run with him. And it's only going to get worse once Thaurissan rotates.

Priest is the class of Bad/Impractical Class Legendaries.
more Hobgoblins and Recombobulators.

I have been asking about this one a while, id love to see recombob in the classic set
The real issue with Standard's freshness is...

What counts as New Fresh decks?

Is Midrange Pirate-based Shaman a fresh take on Midrange Totem-based Shaman?
Is Freeze Mage a new experience with the addition of Reno?
Is Discardlock a separate deck from Classic Zoolock?
Is Reno Priest different enough from Control Priest?

Really only Druid has been undeniably fresh. From Cthun Druid to Yogg Druid to MalyDruid to not Jade Druid.
>Brode not beginning with "greetings!"

Ya dun goofed.

01/06/2017 04:28 PMPosted by Ben Brode
we might rotate some additional classic cards to Wild, like we did with Old Murk Eye.


Just out of interest, now that it's been admitted that murk eye was allowed to rotate because it was problematic and not because of a technicality with the nature of the old collection reward gift cards? And even allow people to get those cards with the collection again? Because captain's parrot and etc din do nuffin and they're potentially interesting and fun cards.
Wow - an honest to goodness Blue post that is discussing actual, relevant stuff! :) Thanks! Nice to see you here and please keep it up.
01/06/2017 04:37 PMPosted by Magnijung
Are you guys considering, besides nerfs, implementing buffs for underused vanilla cards?


Given the goal of Standard is to keep the game fresh each year, it's important to keep a lot of the power of the cards in the expansions, and not in the basic and classic sets. It's not clear what that balance of power should look like (is it ~10 cards from the basic and classic sets on average?), but we're currently skewed so high towards basic and classic cards in decks, that we are at high risk for 'samey-ness' as the years change in Standard. Buffing Basic/Classic cards *increases* that risk. If the goal is to get more cool cards into the meta, just releasing awesome new cards in expansions should make an impact there, and still keep Standard fresh.
01/06/2017 04:28 PMPosted by Ben Brode
People take breaks from Hearthstone, and being able to jump right back in with a few cards you already own and understand makes that experience a lot better.


I wish that were true, but after coming back from a break myself you literally cannot compete against the new jade/pirate decks with classic/basic cards if you left the game at a high rank. Thanks for punishing players for being good.

You should seriously consider implementing a sort of system where X days of inactivity temporarily lowers your rank/level so players have a fighting chance without having to drop a ton of dosh on new expansions in order to compete on a level playing field.

Make your money through adventures, not by forcing returning players to upgrade or fail. Sure it's not a popular opinion but after so many years of having purples you've worked months for only to be replaced by greens in the first 5 minutes of the next expansion does take its toll.
01/06/2017 06:23 PMPosted by Ben Brode
01/06/2017 04:37 PMPosted by Magnijung
Are you guys considering, besides nerfs, implementing buffs for underused vanilla cards?


Given the goal of Standard is to keep the game fresh each year, it's important to keep a lot of the power of the cards in the expansions, and not in the basic and classic sets. It's not clear what that balance of power should look like (is it ~10 cards from the basic and classic sets on average?), but we're currently skewed so high towards basic and classic cards in decks, that we are at high risk for 'samey-ness' as the years change in Standard. Buffing Basic/Classic cards *increases* that risk. If the goal is to get more cool cards into the meta, just releasing awesome new cards in expansions should make an impact there, and still keep Standard fresh.


Ben, the question that is on everybodys mind: due to the fact that reno and dragon decls will suffer with rotation, are there any premature plans to add more cards to the classic set?
Ty :)
01/06/2017 06:23 PMPosted by Ben Brode
Given the goal of Standard is to keep the game fresh each year, it's important to keep a lot of the power of the cards in the expansions, and not in the basic and classic sets.


Hearthstone can be summed up like a well constructed meal.

Basic/Classic cards = Protein - aka bland but necessary
Expansions = Seasoning - aka spicy but a pinch too much ruins the dish
Adventures = Garnish - aka a theme such as turkey for thanksgiving
01/06/2017 06:47 PMPosted by lockwoodx
01/06/2017 06:23 PMPosted by Ben Brode
Given the goal of Standard is to keep the game fresh each year, it's important to keep a lot of the power of the cards in the expansions, and not in the basic and classic sets.


Hearthstone can be summed up like a well constructed meal.

Basic/Classic cards = Protein - aka bland but necessary
Expansions = Seasoning - aka spicy but a pinch too much ruins the dish
Adventures = Garnish - aka a theme such as turkey for thanksgiving


This analogy is all over the place.

Turkey is a garnish? Really?
01/06/2017 06:57 PMPosted by Mercutio
01/06/2017 06:47 PMPosted by lockwoodx
...

Hearthstone can be summed up like a well constructed meal.

Basic/Classic cards = Protein - aka bland but necessary
Expansions = Seasoning - aka spicy but a pinch too much ruins the dish
Adventures = Garnish - aka a theme such as turkey for thanksgiving


This analogy is all over the place.

Turkey is a garnish? Really?


I didn't say turkey *is* the garnish, I said it's part of a theme. Garnish is also flourish if you think about it. Saganaki for example is cheese for the body, lemon/brandy for the seasoning, and a flaming OOOOOOOPA!!!! is the 'garnish.'

That's how I view adventures. They're a theme that sets the tone, just like a garnish isn't meant to be consumed so much as it is to be experienced.
I trust in the Devs to try an make standard the feel "fresh" mode.

Ben Brode telling us they want the power to remain in sets seem good. We can say GvG examples were Dr.Boom, Shredder, etc. An the old Naxx cards like Mad Scientist an Belcher.

This gives new players a reason if they desire to craft old cards from set to check them out.

The argument with standard is, so we blame the staleness on basic cards or the classic ones? Should we always see Backstab an Frostbolt? Or does the future gonna suffer when veterans tell new players to craft XYZ classic cards cause never nerf an forever standard.

Many arguments but it's probably healthy the game has cards that give players goals to craft from classic. I am gonna trust the Devs that expansions are gonna be better in general for there future goals.

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