How can Revive trigger PYromancer when revivied?

Play Mode Discussion
Hi

If my Pyromancer is death and i Revive as Priest. How can he Trigger his effect?

Even if he was played first, i Need to Play the spell first and then the minion revives. Minion Text says after you cast a spell do 1 dmg to all. How can pyromancer Trigger still? Is this correct?

The order does not make sense for me.

If i revive Auctioneer, does he draw a Card for me too?
Ore if i revive Questing Adventurer does he get +1+1?

Can anyone explain this for me plz?

Thx
its because

After you cast a spell, deal 1 damage to ALL minions.


that little word in the text
Because there are different phases to a spell being cast. There's the intial phase where "when you cast a spell" effects are triggered. Then there's some other phases where stuff like deathrattles and such happen. Then there's the resolution phase where "after you cast a spell" effects trigger.

So this is the way this one goes down:

1. You cast Resurrection.
2. A random minion that died on your side of the board is selected. In this case, it's Wild Pyromancer.
3. Wild Pyromancer is played on your side of the board.
4. Wild Pyromancer's effect checks to see if a spell has been played and finds that Resurrection has been played.
5. Wild Pyromancer's effect goes off as the Resurrection spell resolves and deals 1 damage to all minions.

At least, that's how people who have much more knowledge of the nuts and bolts of Hearthstone explain it to me.
jesus wtf
Ok i understand the game Checks the whole Round for spells played.

But this didnt make sense. Then they must Change Card Text To:

Deals 1 dmg to all minions if a spell is played on your turn ( and even then it s doubtfull)

Explain is ok but didnt make a sense.

For me it Looks like a bug.
01/25/2017 05:32 AMPosted by Dowsha
Ok i understand the game Checks the whole Round for spells played.

But this didnt make sense. Then they must Change Card Text To:

Deals 1 dmg to all minions if a spell is played on your turn ( and even then it s doubtfull)

Explain is ok but didnt make a sense.

For me it Looks like a bug.

It's not a bug, but Blizzard has chosen to keep card text simple on purpose. If you want to dig into the game mechanics to understand weird and complicated interactions, you can. But for the vast majority of gameplay, Wild Pyro's text explains well enough how it works. I have to say that I agree with this design philosophy and the only thing that I ask is that Bliz keeps the wording consistent with the behavior. This way, once you understand how it works for one card you can predict that it will behavior similarly for all cards worded the same way.
Ok i understand the game Checks the whole Round for spells played.

But this didnt make sense. Then they must Change Card Text To:

Deals 1 dmg to all minions if a spell is played on your turn ( and even then it s doubtfull)

Explain is ok but didnt make a sense.
<span class="truncated">...</span>
For me it Looks like a bug.

It's not a bug, but Blizzard has chosen to keep card text simple on purpose. If you want to dig into the game mechanics to understand weird and complicated interactions, you can. But for the vast majority of gameplay, Wild Pyro's text explains well enough how it works. I have to say that I agree with this design philosophy and the only thing that I ask is that Bliz keeps the wording consistent with the behavior. This way, once you understand how it works for one card you can predict that it will behavior similarly for all cards worded the same way.


Keeping text simple is one Thing and ok but this order makes zero sense and there is no logic explanation so far.

You cant write a text and Change mechanic and say i Keep the text simple.

To compress a Information to Basic/core is ok but this is a Change of mechanic

Its a clear bug until then.

Anyone now the same happens with auctioneer and questing adventurer?
Finally the answer i was looking for

Wild Pyromancer's triggered effect is activated by the resolution of a spell effect, not the spell being cast, meaning it only activates after all other consequences of the spell have completed. For example, casting Slam on a Wild Pyromancer will cause it to die before its effect can trigger. Likewise, a friendly area of effect spell such as Hellfire which destroys the Pyromancer will do so without triggering the Pyromancer's effect, since the Pyromancer is removed before the spell resolves. Conversely, if a Wild Pyromancer is summoned as a result of a spell (either directly by a spell such as Resurrect or as the result of the activation of a Deathrattle, for example), it will trigger once the spell has resolved, despite not being on the board when the spell was cast.
This also means that it activates after any related deaths and Deathrattles have resolved. For example if a priest with a Wild Pyromancer on the board uses Shadow Word: Death to destroy a Sylvanas Windrunner, and her Deathrattle takes control of the Wild Pyromancer, he will not trigger from the casting of the spell. This is because the Pyromancer only checks for activation after the spell and all its consequences have resolved; by which time he belongs to the other player.
Wild Pyromancer's triggered effect counts as dealing damage for game purposes. This makes it impossible to grant the Pyromancer Stealth through Conceal, for example, because the Pyromancer will immediately follow the spell by dealing 1 AoE damage, thus removing its own Stealth.[1]
01/25/2017 06:06 AMPosted by Dowsha
Anyone now the same happens with auctioneer and questing adventurer?


read the cards

search for the word after

if it isnt in the text then it wont work the same way as pyromancer
Dude that's nothing. I saw the reynoodle have a turn then went like this:

Reynad has a bunch of low health junk on the board and a full health flamewaker.
Other dude (Warlock) has a 2 attack Sylvanas.

Warlock shadowflames the Sylv. Wipes Reynads board except for flamewaker and another minion. Sylv steals the flamewaker. Flamewaker then proceeds to fire off two missiles clearing the rest of Reynads board.

Was hilarious!

The shadowflame spell resolved. Sylv died. The death rattle happened. Why the flamewaker activation?

I know it's because for some reason if their is a stack of junk, the code checks for 'after spell' effects at the very very end. Seems un-intuitive though.
Wild Pyromancer is extremely enthusiastic about playing with fire. Even if you don’t control a Wild Pyromancer when you start casting a spell, if you control one after the spell resolves, the world is going to burn. This causes some confusion, because most triggered abilities in Hearthstone occur ‘whenever’ something happens. Why do we sometimes use ‘after’ instead?

Triggered abilities in Hearthstone work like questions. ‘Whenever’ is asking ‘Hey, you are doing something. Is it the thing I care about?’ ‘After’ asks a different question. ‘Hey, you did something. Was it the thing I care about?’ ‘Whenever’ is usually the most straightforward way of implementing triggered abilities. The trigger sees you do the thing it cares about and executes its ability. Then, you proceed with whatever triggered the ability. Typically this is to your advantage: when you use Power of the Wild to give your minions +1/+1 and have Violet Teacher in play, the Violet Teacher sees you cast the spell and creates an Apprentice before the spell resolves, so you get a 2/2 Apprentice. Sweet.

However, the timing of when exactly the trigger occurs is not always obvious. Consider a trigger that says ‘whenever this minion attacks, it gains +2 Attack.’ It’s not obvious if the attack buff is gained before or after the attack resolves; a good-faith reading could be interpreted either way, particularly for people who don’t have a fine grasp on the rules. Combat is key to Hearthstone, so you shouldn’t need a fine grasp on the rules to not be surprised by it.*

This is why we have ‘after’ in our toolbox. If we made that card, it would say ‘After this minion attacks, it gains +2 Attack.’ With ‘after’ it is unambiguous that the trigger occurs after the attack, and you can plan accordingly. We prefer ‘whenever’ but use ‘after’ in cases where we need to be more clear.

There are also some cases where we have to have the trigger occur ‘after’ for targeting reasons. Wild Pyromancer uses ‘after’ because if it used ‘whenever’ its ability would trigger before the spell you cast resolved. If you were casting Frostbolt on a minion with 1 Health, the Pyromancer’s trigger would kill the minion and it wouldn’t be in play when Frostbolt resolved. We’d have to do something inelegant to solve the problem of what should happen to Frostbolt’s visual effect in that case, so we use ‘after’ instead. Triggers that care about minions being summoned also tend to use ‘after’ because if we used ‘whenever’ the minion wouldn’t be in play when the trigger resolved, which looks weird visually and would also mean that the trigger couldn’t affect the minion being summoned. For example, Addled Grizzly wouldn’t work if it said ‘whenever.’

We’ve considered changing the rule for minions with ‘after’ triggers to only occur if the minion is in play at the start of whatever triggered them, but we decided not to. The current template for ‘after’ is clear in almost all cases, and while surprise Wild Pyromancer triggers off of e.g. Mindgames are startling, they do match the Pyromancer’s text. Since the rule is consistent and the text of ‘after’ minions match their functionality, we didn’t want to change the rules to fix this particular corner case, especially since it would introduce ambiguity with the general case for ‘after’ text.

*By rule, the trigger occurs after the attack is declared but before damage. We use ‘whenever’ on triggers like Cutpurse because the trigger isn’t relevant to combat, though.
01/26/2017 01:48 PMPosted by Max McCall
We’d have to do something inelegant to solve the problem of what should happen to Frostbolt’s visual effect in that case


O_o
Like what happens when Sylvanas dies with nothing to steal, or the 1 drop space goat has nobody to divinely shield?

i.e. I am suggesting it might (but then, I have no idea) be simple to make the frostbolt casting animation be where the spell begins and ends. The wind up, and no pitch, so to speak.
01/26/2017 01:53 PMPosted by Sovereign
O_o
Like what happens when Sylvanas dies with nothing to steal, or the 1 drop space goat has nobody to divinely shield?

i.e. I am suggesting it might (but then, I have no idea) be simple to make the frostbolt casting animation be where the spell begins and ends. The wind up, and no pitch, so to speak.


Sylvanas and Selfless Hero still give value because they put a body on the field. Even if they ultimately whiff their deathrattles or are silenced, they are still something your opponent has to concern themselves with or you can use to engage him or his minions.

A frostbolt that you pay two mana then does nothing because your own minion decided to kill the target first isn't really comparable.
01/26/2017 06:11 PMPosted by Inien
01/26/2017 01:53 PMPosted by Sovereign
O_o
Like what happens when Sylvanas dies with nothing to steal, or the 1 drop space goat has nobody to divinely shield?

i.e. I am suggesting it might (but then, I have no idea) be simple to make the frostbolt casting animation be where the spell begins and ends. The wind up, and no pitch, so to speak.


Sylvanas and Selfless Hero still give value because they put a body on the field. Even if they ultimately whiff their deathrattles or are silenced, they are still something your opponent has to concern themselves with or you can use to engage him or his minions.

A frostbolt that you pay two mana then does nothing because your own minion decided to kill the target first isn't really comparable.


This. Not to mention if Pyro was changed to a "whenever" effect, regardless of how difficult it is to achieve, it would be a pretty significant nerf to Paladins when they are already in a bad spot.
01/26/2017 01:53 PMPosted by Sovereign
01/26/2017 01:48 PMPosted by Max McCall
We’d have to do something inelegant to solve the problem of what should happen to Frostbolt’s visual effect in that case


O_o
Like what happens when Sylvanas dies with nothing to steal, or the 1 drop space goat has nobody to divinely shield?

i.e. I am suggesting it might (but then, I have no idea) be simple to make the frostbolt casting animation be where the spell begins and ends. The wind up, and no pitch, so to speak.


In the case of unfulfilled deathrattles, the deathrattle animation plays out, but the additional animation of stealing a minion or buffing a minion never starts because it never targets anything. In the case of Frostbolt, it already has a target. If that target is removed, it's awkward to just have the frostbolt peter out in place, or go to where the minion was. This makes the situation a non-issue because it never comes up.

I believe the visual resolution of effects is secondary to clarity in card text in this example anyways. The strongest reason to keep Wild Pyromancer working the way it does is because, according to a literal interpretation of the card text, that's how it should work.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum