How to deal with 4x Sorcerer's Apprentice

Play Mode Discussion
I asked in another topic what an "interactive" deck is. I honestly don't get it : what is interactive if I can't play during your turn?

Bear this in mind : exodia is a combo deck.
YES it wants to assemble cards.
YES, if it can't assemble these cards, it will lose.
YES it will try to make the game last up to the moment those cards are assembled.

Aside from that combo, please explain me how exactly warr taunt acts differently ? How chaman murloc is different? How Rogue mill is different? How Dragon Priest is different?

Iceblock+freeze+OTK is something mage do because it's the given win con. Btw, there's a quite good secret mage that plays on aggro and that's efficient. But yes, with a third of mage spells designed to freeze and stall, you will meet mage that try to make the game last. Exactly how, with a third of their spells designed to heal, you'll probably meet priests that heal.

Now, I'm very serious when I ask what your definition of "interactive" is. Killing in one turn after stalling is more frustrating than killing in 5turns after installing a total lockdown, but it's quite the same.
04/11/2017 12:54 AMPosted by MeltedWater

Theoretically, Dirty Rat COULD help, but I just played a game where my first one pulled Shimmering Tempest and second pulled the 2 mana 2/3 draw a secret. Bad luck.


I've had much better luck than you, I'm thinking of changing my Dirty Rat's name to Antonidas removal rodent.
04/14/2017 06:47 AMPosted by Prisme
Now, I'm very serious when I ask what your definition of "interactive" is. Killing in one turn after stalling is more frustrating than killing in 5turns after installing a total lockdown, but it's quite the same.


Interactive means you have tools and plays that can be made in response to or in preparation of game mechanics.

If warrior plays a large taunt in the way of your lethal you can silence the taunt, kill the taunt, bounce the taunt, change the health of the taunt and kill it easier. Likewise your opponent can play the taunt and kill your minions, they can reduce your minions attack in some way, silence their buffs. When something has to stick on the board to do damage then it is inherently vulnerable to being targeted, and while that might not seem like much that's everything. Conceal with miracle rogue is an example of another deck that's highly non-interactive because your opponent drops a priority target that requires an answer and then seals it behind a 1 mana stealth. Sometimes it's not so bad with aoe, but when it's a 12/12 Edwin and there's literally nothing you can do to play around it that's just a really poor experience.

The problem with quest rogue is that everything comes from the hand and you can't do things on your opponents turn. So when they go off you sit there and just lose, and there's little you could do against it.

Options for dealing with quest mage is burst damage (which isn't even guaranteed to work), dirty rat, flare, eater of secrets, Swamp King Dredd, counter spell and potion of polymorph.

So ignoring the burst damage/aggro only two classes have some kind of obvious answer to the deck. Two of them are hunter, a deck that already has enough reach to win anyway. Flare is a terrible card that isn't playable against anything but the mage, Dredd is countered by freeze effects and polymorph.

The other class that has answers is mage, and both those secrets are so weak as to not be played. And you mentioned Secret Mage, which isn't a real deck btw, and is only out there to counter quest mage and quest rogue, and is so wildly inconsistent, as it's always been, as to be weak against the majority of the other decks.

Eater of secrets is likewise a terrible card that is dead against anything that isn't mage, because most classes aren't running secrets. Paladin and Hunter don't really have them in their decks these days.

So you have one actual option to dealing with the combo mage, dirty rat, and it's basically a "I draw this card and hit something to win, or I don't and lose" for all the classes not playing hyper aggro/burn.

The root of the problem lies in the fact that the mage does INFINITE damage. When you get down to it the mage is going to attempt to kill you with damage spells from hand. No amount of healing, armor, or other aspects of the game can stop this and removes a serious aspect of interaction. If you are an armor gain class like warrior, you could force the mage to have to interact with your armor gain instead of just solitaire comboing. When the damage is infinite, this no longer applies.

The main difference in something like quest mage versus mill rogue or taunt warrior is that you can change how you play during the game to affect their decisions. You can setup a good board against the warrior and force a brawl when you can reload, you can force removal on less than ideal targets, you can remove their more hampering taunts for tempo swings. You can accelerate your play and dump useless cards against a mill rogue to keep from burning important cards.

The option against quest mage is "wait and see if I die."
04/10/2017 11:46 PMPosted by IamNotAnumbr
Any ideads about how to deal with this silliness? ?

[/quote]

Mill their apprentices/moltens.
The challenge I see with the new Freeze Mage is in how effectively they seem to be able to stall the game. Even with a fairly aggressive Token Druid deck I was not able to do damage quickly enough or reliably enough. Between the Novas, the Cones, the Blizzards, and the Ice Blocks they were able to clear boards, prevent fatal, and otherwise lock up the board without much difficulty.

If they can do that, then any player who knows what they're doing can pop the combo and infinite fireball. The only real chance you've got is to Dirty Rat out Antonidas or (if you're Aggro) cross your fingers and hope they draw badly on their stall cards.

And that seems to be the only real weakness that the deck has. If they get a bad draw then they can be beaten. Otherwise all you can do is hope they screw up their play somehow and give you an opening.
04/14/2017 06:22 AMPosted by Prisme

I don't mind capping the number of damage the deck can do in one turn, as long as we cap the maximum health/protection/armor a player can set, otherwise the game will be reduced to "fastest aggro vs thoughest armor".


Which is better than fastest aggro period ?

dont you realize you support more aggro decks with the existance of this mage deck? which is why we have so many hunter and rogue decks atm? just like we had the patron meta and the pirates meta...

Do you honestly believe that preasuring a mage can beat them ?
I have done so more than once just to have them iceblock 5-6 times in a row.
Lucky for me one of these times was when I played a silly hunter deck.
How did I win? got him to 1 and kept bursting his iceblock for 4-5 times in a row and luckily I had an explosive trap that went off on HIS turn when he attacked me with one of HIS apprentices.

Can this happen EVERY TIME? NO. Can a mage complete their quest? ofcorse.
I am not looking to limit just the amount you can do in one turn. I am looking to limit the amount of the same cards you can play in one game.

playing 4-5 Renos is completely bad.
Want to guess who were playing them?
Correct!
Mages.
This is bad design becoz there is not REAL way of countering it.

the only thing coming close to what I want to see is the new mechnic we have on the new Taunt cards that buffs their attack on ENEMy's turn.

they should also heal the hero or damage the enemy hero.

that is the only why in my opinion to deal with the flood of the aggro decks.

One last question (for now :) :
How come we see so few cards ingame out of the 135 cards in the expansion?

(Answer: Bad design...)
04/14/2017 08:38 AMPosted by Amideus
04/14/2017 06:47 AMPosted by Prisme
Now, I'm very serious when I ask what your definition of "interactive" is. Killing in one turn after stalling is more frustrating than killing in 5turns after installing a total lockdown, but it's quite the same.


Interactive means you have tools and plays that can be made in response to or in preparation of game mechanics.

If warrior plays a large taunt in the way of your lethal you can silence the taunt, kill the taunt, bounce the taunt, change the health of the taunt and kill it easier. Likewise your opponent can play the taunt and kill your minions, they can reduce your minions attack in some way, silence their buffs. When something has to stick on the board to do damage then it is inherently vulnerable to being targeted, and while that might not seem like much that's everything. Conceal with miracle rogue is an example of another deck that's highly non-interactive because your opponent drops a priority target that requires an answer and then seals it behind a 1 mana stealth. Sometimes it's not so bad with aoe, but when it's a 12/12 Edwin and there's literally nothing you can do to play around it that's just a really poor experience.

The problem with quest rogue is that everything comes from the hand and you can't do things on your opponents turn. So when they go off you sit there and just lose, and there's little you could do against it.

Options for dealing with quest mage is burst damage (which isn't even guaranteed to work), dirty rat, flare, eater of secrets, Swamp King Dredd, counter spell and potion of polymorph.

So ignoring the burst damage/aggro only two classes have some kind of obvious answer to the deck. Two of them are hunter, a deck that already has enough reach to win anyway. Flare is a terrible card that isn't playable against anything but the mage, Dredd is countered by freeze effects and polymorph.

The other class that has answers is mage, and both those secrets are so weak as to not be played. And you mentioned Secret Mage, which isn't a real deck btw, and is only out there to counter quest mage and quest rogue, and is so wildly inconsistent, as it's always been, as to be weak against the majority of the other decks.

Eater of secrets is likewise a terrible card that is dead against anything that isn't mage, because most classes aren't running secrets. Paladin and Hunter don't really have them in their decks these days.

So you have one actual option to dealing with the combo mage, dirty rat, and it's basically a "I draw this card and hit something to win, or I don't and lose" for all the classes not playing hyper aggro/burn.

The root of the problem lies in the fact that the mage does INFINITE damage. When you get down to it the mage is going to attempt to kill you with damage spells from hand. No amount of healing, armor, or other aspects of the game can stop this and removes a serious aspect of interaction. If you are an armor gain class like warrior, you could force the mage to have to interact with your armor gain instead of just solitaire comboing. When the damage is infinite, this no longer applies.

The main difference in something like quest mage versus mill rogue or taunt warrior is that you can change how you play during the game to affect their decisions. You can setup a good board against the warrior and force a brawl when you can reload, you can force removal on less than ideal targets, you can remove their more hampering taunts for tempo swings. You can accelerate your play and dump useless cards against a mill rogue to keep from burning important cards.

The option against quest mage is "wait and see if I die."


Everything that he said.

Well put.
Hmm I play this deck and its awesome atm. All of these counterplays gave me some ideas against dirty rat. So Ive discovered enough freezes and am comfortable stalling but worried about rat I should look for a third molten. As long as rat doesnt pull tony it can pull one sorceror and im still good with the third molten. Sorc(2), molten(3), molten(2), time warp(2) total 9 mana end turn. Drop Tony, third molten(1), RIP. Good look lol.
It'd be nice if Lotheb was moved back to classic. At least it'd buy opponents an extra turn.
I find winning before they complete a Quest, gather 5 specific cards and another spell card in their hand and then another turn goes by really helps my chances.

Like the deck is soooo slow.
04/11/2017 12:22 AMPosted by Zalkir
Infinite damage zero cost loop is not, ever, good design. I'm a little floored this one got by.


Other games have even simpler results. Shadowverse for example has Enstatued Seraph, which the end stage of the combo simply reads "win the game."

Yes, the combo will kill you. That's how combo decks work. You have to either disrupt the combo, force them to play pieces early to survive, or kill them before it goes off. As has been done to combo decks for twenty years.
Dirty rat antonio or one apprentice fcks the combo. Run it, it is a strong card even with quest rogue.
Rat has to hit Tony. You can discover another molten and pull it off with one girl.
04/14/2017 09:24 AMPosted by Mand
Yes, the combo will kill you. That's how combo decks work. You have to either disrupt the combo, force them to play pieces early to survive, or kill them before it goes off. As has been done to combo decks for twenty years.


Here's where I agree with you: Stop the pawns from reaching the other side of the board or suffer multiple queens.

Here's where I disagree with you: Mage has a stupid amount of ways to blink past the opposing pawns and draw/cast infinite spells.
I'm curious how the mage even got to that turn without you killing him first. If your deck is so slow that he even got to that point then you are also losing to pretty much every other deck in the meta and mage shouldn't be your primary concern.
To be fair eater of secrets or flare before lethal is the correct route or somehow steal/discover an iceblock yourself and kill next turn always get her to one health you wont win late game with a board full off 2+ attack minions going into fatigue because she can take the extra 1 fatigue damage. The deck also isnt as slow as ppl think with the amount of draw and tutoring to pull secrets. Essentially it runs over 10 + draw.
04/10/2017 11:46 PMPosted by IamNotAnumbr
Am I the only one who finds this stupid?
Played several games against a Mage that manage to copy his/her Apprentice and then played infinite number of Fireballs. In my last game I had 20 armor on my warrior and still lost after he time-warped.

Any ideads about how to deal with this silliness? ?


Tech in Dirty Rat and hope it pulls one of the combo pieces as the Mage is getting closer to the quest completion. If you can pull Tony or one of the the Apprentice you win percentage goes way up. The Dirty Rat is also useful as a tech option in other matchups as well so it is worth an add if you are seeing this deck often
04/14/2017 09:24 AMPosted by Mand
That's how combo decks work. You have to either disrupt the combo, force them to play pieces early to survive, or kill them before it goes off. As has been done to combo decks for twenty years.


lol!!

04/14/2017 09:24 AMPosted by Mand
kill them before it goes off


04/14/2017 09:24 AMPosted by Mand
twenty years.


LOL!!!!!
Player 1: Begins first turn.
Player 2: Wait. Before you draw: Flash → Protean Hulk.
Player 1: *Concedes*

Right. Killing combo decks with aggro since 1993, eh? Man you're good.
Snipe Antonidas/Apprentice with Dirty Rat or tech in Eater of Secrets.
04/10/2017 11:46 PMPosted by IamNotAnumbr
Am I the only one who finds this stupid?
Played several games against a Mage that manage to copy his/her Apprentice and then played infinite number of Fireballs. In my last game I had 20 armor on my warrior and still lost after he time-warped.

Any ideads about how to deal with this silliness? ?


run two dirty rats or have enough aggro to kill him before he draws 25 cards.

any deck that has to win by drawing nearly all of it's deck is by definition A; completely OP broken in the best situation while B: hopelessly weak vs any kind of aggressive deck.

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