Cards that need to be removed from arena

Arena Discussion
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Death knight cards

It's been a little bit since vicious fledgling wastoned down in appearance and now every class gets its own orange vicious fledgling with a cool battlecry.

There's already another thread but apparently nobody with influence reads the forum anyway since its been like a month of this?? I've hd games with 3 drafted druid DK's, discovers from lotus agents, etc beyond even the 'normal' 1 potential dk card in a deck.

Can we just get this fixed within a reasonable timeframe instead of giving the playerbase the middle finger as devs fondle each other in their cubicles?
I honestly don't think they would need to remove any cards if they fixed how drafting worked. But since they aren't going to do that...
People give too much credit to DK's in Arena. Only a few of them are strong. Warrior and Paladin are countered by Weapon Hate. Rogue is unplayable. Mage and Warlock you need to be sufficiently ahead or you die soon after. Shaman you have to be a lot ahead because its useless if you don't have board. Druid is only slightly better than Shadowform. Hunter is a huge tempo loss for value in this tempo meta it can be raced before the Value Train catches up especially since Hunter is not built to efficiently play Value Control. That leaves Priest as the only DK that is busted but that also applies to constructed so its more of a problem with Priest DK being too good than all DK's being too good. Jarraxxus is similar or better than many DK's and that's been in forever. If they are going to remove cards from Arena they should remove a lot more than just the DK's and if they go that route the game will be boring because every deck will end up the same because they removed so many cards from the pool.

TLDR
If they start down the slippery slope of removing everything people complain about Arena will turn into a boring homogenized mess of every deck being the same.
We don't have any plan to take Death Knights out of arena. In most cases they are very powerful, but not any more powerful than other highly drafted legendary cards. The circumstance where people are drafting and playing powerful legendary cards from the set that just released is something we think is positive so long as they aren't exceeding the power level of all other cards in existence.
10/19/2017 09:39 AMPosted by Iksar
but not any more powerful than other highly drafted legendary cards.


What other legendary card offers infinite value for as long as the game goes?
10/19/2017 10:09 AMPosted by l4ndm1n3
10/19/2017 09:39 AMPosted by Iksar
but not any more powerful than other highly drafted legendary cards.


What other legendary card offers infinite value for as long as the game goes?


Jarraxxus, Raza, Prince Kelseth and in some cases Ysaarj, Ysera and Lich King also. Probably even more than I came up with instantly.

Shadowform also but that's just an Epic and mentioning Epics UI often performs much better than any of the DK's.
If you were to deathwing after any DK played......they would need hard removal or a line of taunts just to defer the damage long enough to devise a winning strategy.
The whole point is it feels terrible to play against. Most often if you are not already going to win it ensures you lose just bc opponent has X. Is that the goal of hearthstone?

Ysaarj, Ysera and Lich king can all be answered by board removal. Infinite value comes from a hero power like FLJ/Guldan/or the Shaman which provide healing/spawning/upgrading minions that can't just be removed.
And if you weren't ahead on tempo the DK anti Tempo you while the other guy starts to snowball before you catch up on value. While Lich King, Ysera, and Ysarrj put a threat on the board that dodges a lot of removal and they start generating infinite value because they end the game before you cobble together a removal that works. How many people save their Hard removal for the random legendary instead of any other sizeable threat and how many people have Infinite Removal? People just lose their minds when a DK hits the table and their brains go instantly into this game is unwinnable mode when in reality the game was still very winnable if you don't play like a potato. From all the DK's I saw in Arena I won against more of them than I lose to and the games that were unwinnable they also had a deck than won the Draft lottery getting a crazy deck with all top tier cards and those games were probably lost even if the DK never hit the table.
10/19/2017 10:33 AMPosted by Shuyin
10/19/2017 10:09 AMPosted by l4ndm1n3
...

What other legendary card offers infinite value for as long as the game goes?


Jarraxxus, Raza, Prince Kelseth and in some cases Ysaarj, Ysera and Lich King also. Probably even more than I came up with instantly.

Shadowform also but that's just an Epic and mentioning Epics UI often performs much better than any of the DK's.


10/19/2017 10:33 AMPosted by Shuyin
10/19/2017 10:09 AMPosted by l4ndm1n3
...

What other legendary card offers infinite value for as long as the game goes?


Jarraxxus, Raza, Prince Kelseth and in some cases Ysaarj, Ysera and Lich King also. Probably even more than I came up with instantly.

Shadowform also but that's just an Epic and mentioning Epics UI often performs much better than any of the DK's.


jaraxxus doesn't give you a huge power swing the turn you play it, at best you get maybe more health when you play it and a weapon, but you give up a turn and make yourself vulnerable to combos.

Raza giving a free hero power to priest is pretty strong but you need a lot of things to line up to have it even become op (draft deck that allows you to reasonably draw raza, deck that satisfies conditions, maybe play shadowform at some point in the game if you have the mana to spend on it)

I agree with you about keleseth and how strong it is, I think it dabbles too much in the realm of binary playstyles the same way quest rogue and miracle rogue with conceal. I tried drafting a deck focused around it and the system works I guess but at the least it felt very inconsistent to play so I wasn't snowballing out of control all the time.

Yshaarj, Ysera and Lich King are all very strong yes, but you have the opening to get rid of them if you're lucky enough to have removal at that time before they snowball. Not every card recieved from their effects or every minion dropped will be a big showstopper.

Death knight cards don't really sacrifice much the turn they're played and are disproportionately stronger than most other cards of legendary rarity in arena. Even comparing them to jaraxxus, you a) get 5 armor added and don't have your health capped at 15, and b)get a new hero power which is as good or better than the default, and c) typically have a pretty good battlecry associated with it.
10/19/2017 09:37 AMPosted by Shuyin
People give too much credit to DK's in Arena. Only a few of them are strong. Warrior and Paladin are countered by Weapon Hate. Rogue is unplayable. Mage and Warlock you need to be sufficiently ahead or you die soon after. Shaman you have to be a lot ahead because its useless if you don't have board. Druid is only slightly better than Shadowform. Hunter is a huge tempo loss for value in this tempo meta it can be raced before the Value Train catches up especially since Hunter is not built to efficiently play Value Control. That leaves Priest as the only DK that is busted but that also applies to constructed so its more of a problem with Priest DK being too good than all DK's being too good. Jarraxxus is similar or better than many DK's and that's been in forever. If they are going to remove cards from Arena they should remove a lot more than just the DK's and if they go that route the game will be boring because every deck will end up the same because they removed so many cards from the pool.

TLDR
If they start down the slippery slope of removing everything people complain about Arena will turn into a boring homogenized mess of every deck being the same.


Even if your opponent has weapon removal it's still pretty sweet to have a swipe equivalent or a 5 damage burn on top of a new hero power, no? You're talking about mage as if it's hard to draft a deck that doesn't have enough removal in arena to stall to turn 9. Shaman can play dopplegangster into dk which isn't as impossible to draft as you'd think. I'm not gonna type the rest out but I think hunter is still really good and cheap, but I agree on warlock and rogue not being guaranteed showstoppers in arena.

Regardless I guess I'll just take the Blizzard(c) Official Middle Finger and go I guess since apparently they aren't exceeding the power of "all" other cards, that they are appropriately overpowered and still part of their latest cash cow card set. If they just released the set to make money and it's making money, how silly for a non-blizzard peasant like me to think that it's a fallacy to say that it being new and shiny means it's good. I'll go back to my hovel and continue relishing other classics like Dr. Boom, Jade Shaman, Secret Paladin, Pirate Warrior, Quest Rogue, Innervate, all which made money at some point and are all really good and fun to play against in 5-10 minute long games of flipping heads or tails.
Blizzard does things in self interest, it's always "we think" "we know" we, we, we, it's never about paying attention to the community.
At 2-0 I just had a warlock play his alternate hero 2 times - non discovered.

https://imgur.com/a/cy6sO
https://imgur.com/a/Hh6yF

I was going to win till he played the second one. U think this was a skilled matchup? You think this makes me want to keep playing? this is utter insanity.
10/19/2017 02:13 PMPosted by Topkek
jaraxxus doesn't give you a huge power swing the turn you play it, at best you get maybe more health when you play it and a weapon, but you give up a turn and make yourself vulnerable to combos.


So does FLJ. You don't even have 3 attack initiative and you are not gaurnateed anything from your hero power.

10/19/2017 02:13 PMPosted by Topkek
Raza giving a free hero power to priest is pretty strong but you need a lot of things to line up to have it even become op (draft deck that allows you to reasonably draw raza, deck that satisfies conditions, maybe play shadowform at some point in the game if you have the mana to spend on it)


Raza is free tempo for the rest of the game in a tempo meta. I know I lost to that exact thing recently if the opponent didn't have Raza I would have passed them in tempo and won that game instead of struggling to keep up. You don't even need to have cycle/draw just a normal deck and Singleton is pretty easy condition to satisfy in Arena. A lot of the time you aren't even offer multiple copies of cards you want to take. Just a free heal with a deck that otherwise curves out ie every successful deck in the current heavy tempo Arena Meta, pushes you far ahead of you opponents.

10/19/2017 03:06 PMPosted by Topkek
Even if your opponent has weapon removal it's still pretty sweet to have a swipe equivalent or a 5 damage burn on top of a new hero power, no? You're talking about mage as if it's hard to draft a deck that doesn't have enough removal in arena to stall to turn 9. Shaman can play dopplegangster into dk which isn't as impossible to draft as you'd think. I'm not gonna type the rest out but I think hunter is still really good and cheap, but I agree on warlock and rogue not being guaranteed showstoppers in arena.


Against Weapon removal best case is Warrior is 8 mana Flamestrike to get a hero power that actually does something but its also a double edge sword as it hits your own minions so the DK is all in on the weapon. Also remember its Warrior so your draft pool is among the worst cards in Arena you probably don't even make it to turn 8. If your deck doesn't recover from that how do you expect to win against any much better class in the Arena just using their commons.
Paladin is a worse 9 mana Holy Fire because you tank the damage with your face before the heal against Weapon Hate and then you get 2/2's instead of 1/1s. If you are losing to that you weren't as far ahead as you thought and a higher tempo 9 mana play would probably have the Paladin much further ahead than the DK that had its weapon removed.

Dopplegangster isn't worth mentioning because Evolve exists and Evolve is much more common and that combo comes out on Turn 6 instead of turn 10. Just about every other case where you can play multiple minions and DK in the same turn is manageable if not already beaten if you are keeping the Shaman board clear. Shaman is a very on the board class so you naturally clear their board to play around much more common cards such as Flametongue. If a Shaman is on the board they are probably already winning and any of the much more common win more cards will snowball them as much and often much better than their DK.
10/19/2017 09:39 AMPosted by August Dean Ayala
We don't have any plan to take Death Knights out of arena. In most cases they are very powerful, but not any more powerful than other highly drafted legendary cards. The circumstance where people are drafting and playing powerful legendary cards from the set that just released is something we think is positive so long as they aren't exceeding the power level of all other cards in existence.


Sometimes you guys need to stop looking at everything through statistics. I am sure DKs don't help you win anymore that any other big legendary if you look at the statistics but playing against them in Arena feels terrible. At least when someone throws down a Tirion there is a chance that you have an answer for it. DKs have no answer other than win before it snowballs too much, which feels bad.
10/20/2017 07:44 AMPosted by l4ndm1n3
At 2-0 I just had a warlock play his alternate hero 2 times - non discovered.

https://imgur.com/a/cy6sO
https://imgur.com/a/Hh6yF

I was going to win till he played the second one. U think this was a skilled matchup? You think this makes me want to keep playing? this is utter insanity.


Exactly, as if one wasn't bad enough and not to mention if you're playing against a priest or a rogue there is a good chance they'll copy your heroes DK card. They need to disable the initial battlecry of the card and increase it's mana cost to 10 to make it somewhat fair.
A lot of stuff infuriates me about arena, especially cobalt scalebane, deathspeaker and bonemare. I don't see the rage about DKs though. Most of them are so low tempo that they won't bail the opponent out of a bad spot. Jaina for instance just gives her a 3/6 elemental that lifesteals (without charge) for NINE mana. That's much lower tempo than even Medivh. Priest's is also quite bad without Raza.

Do these cards make a huge difference if the game is even? Absolutely. In that scenario, it's basically a guaranteed win. The thing is, games are rarely even by turn 9 in modern arena. Usually cobalt / deathspeaker / bonemare have already ensured that someone is winning hard. If you're winning the board with these and your opponent plays a DK (outside of maybe anduin) it's very unlikely that it will turn the tides.

However, other legendaries can also make a huge difference. Deathwing can singlehandedly win you the game if you're losing badly but your opponent has no hard removals. On an even board Ysera or LK can not only provide great bodies but they also provide resources every turn. If you have 15 damage on the board and your enemy has full hp, Alexstrasza can grant you an immediate win. She can also heal you back to 15 from the brink of death which is great if you're playing against hunter or another class with reliable face damage. Medivh with high-cost spells pretty much guarantees a win unless you're horribly behind.
Okay geniuses. What do you do in this situation?

You are barely winning the game in a back-and-forth as warlock, vs priest. On a clear board do you play Defile, Hellfire, or Bog Creeper?

The answer? You lose to the Shadowreaper Anduin, thanks for playing.

Of course, the priest could SW: Death and drop a minion. But they wouldn't have the four damage a turn for the rest of the game from the DK. That is a big deal.
10/19/2017 09:39 AMPosted by August Dean Ayala
We don't have any plan to take Death Knights out of arena. In most cases they are very powerful, but not any more powerful than other highly drafted legendary cards.

Ok. You re wrong
Edit: And i mean seriusly. People were speaking of how much harm was fledging for the arena and you removed it after 6 months.
Now you remove fledging (which is right imo) BUT you consider the dks to be less powerfull??????? Seriusly now? :P That makes no sense. Consider yourself making an arena draft. What would you pick? Fledging or dk?
Thanks for your post anyways. Its always good to hear blizz posts.
I'd rather pick a DK for almost half the classes than nearly any other legendary available in arena right now. Frost Lich Jaina and Bloodreaver Guldan are absolutely deflating when they get played, and DKs literally have no counter. At least with flappy bird you could freeze it, silence it, kill it with minions on board, etc. etc.

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