Cards that need to be removed from arena

Arena Discussion
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The only thing you can do is hurt Blizzard in their wallets.

Do not support this sh*t game when the idiots in charge think that Death Knights in Arena don't help ruin the game.

God, how do they hire such grossly incompetent and negligent people?
10/24/2017 11:46 PMPosted by Diogenes
The only thing you can do is hurt Blizzard in their wallets.

Do not support this sh*t game when the idiots in charge think that Death Knights in Arena don't help ruin the game.

God, how do they hire such grossly incompetent and negligent people?

Although I agree with hurting their wallets, I do not think this is an ish game, I love this game....but I hate some of the decisions they have made with game mechanics and even more than that I hate their "reasoning" and "responses" to what's being complained about. Some complaints are Ehh...whatever...but others have their merits...but incompetent? Yes indeed sir.
10/19/2017 09:39 AMPosted by August Dean Ayala
We don't have any plan to take Death Knights out of arena. In most cases they are very powerful, but not any more powerful than other highly drafted legendary cards. The circumstance where people are drafting and playing powerful legendary cards from the set that just released is something we think is positive so long as they aren't exceeding the power level of all other cards in existence.


The power level of DK's quite easily exceed the power level of any other card in the game.

Only cards that come even close are Ultimate Infestation and Deathwing. Deathwing has huge down side to it and is very situational. It can also be played around to certain extent.

I have so far played two games where both DK and UI were played in the same game. First one was my druid against mage. In the end I had run out of cards and the mage had 4 water elementals on the board with 30 health. Second time was druid against druid. I was the one to play DK. Opponent had good deck but was not able to regain board control after I played the DK.

I know that 2 games is not big sample size but in both of those games the player with DK was the one to march in to easy victory.

I am now 24 losses and 5 wins in games where the opponent played deathknight and I did not. That is pretty oppressive win rate.

There is no counter play to DK's and their power level is insanely high. They are also really common in the high wins games.

They have really bad effect on the current arena experience.
10/19/2017 09:39 AMPosted by August Dean Ayala
We don't have any plan to take Death Knights out of arena. In most cases they are very powerful, but not any more powerful than other highly drafted legendary cards. The circumstance where people are drafting and playing powerful legendary cards from the set that just released is something we think is positive so long as they aren't exceeding the power level of all other cards in existence.

No one believes you. It doesnt matter if you say it isn’t broken. They are. We have experienced it. Get that through your thick skulls.

Please explain, in full detail, what are we supposed to do when anduin is dropped on the board? What? The power level of decks in arena are NOT as powerful as constructed decks. They are NOT. So how are you supposed to keep a board? The answer: you can’t. You lose because whatever you throw down doesn’t stick. How is that not “above the power level of all else”? I lose a game i would have won, because he can keep spamming hero powers at my minions? I seriously want an explanation on how this is winnable.
Anyone mentioned discover cards?

Its kinda horrible design when rogue use hallucination to get Kabal Courier and then discover Frost Lich Jaina...

Same with other discover cards - u get rid of pala Tirion only to see Stonehill Defender offered him another one...
Please please just remove DK's. I lost two arena matches in a row against Warlock, both of them had dk. I've yet to win a single match against someone who has dk.
10/25/2017 12:25 PMPosted by H7qgr81fabfa
10/19/2017 09:39 AMPosted by August Dean Ayala
We don't have any plan to take Death Knights out of arena. In most cases they are very powerful, but not any more powerful than other highly drafted legendary cards. The circumstance where people are drafting and playing powerful legendary cards from the set that just released is something we think is positive so long as they aren't exceeding the power level of all other cards in existence.

No one believes you. It doesnt matter if you say it isn’t broken. They are. We have experienced it. Get that through your thick skulls.

Please explain, in full detail, what are we supposed to do when anduin is dropped on the board? What? The power level of decks in arena are NOT as powerful as constructed decks. They are NOT. So how are you supposed to keep a board? The answer: you can’t. You lose because whatever you throw down doesn’t stick. How is that not “above the power level of all else”? I lose a game i would have won, because he can keep spamming hero powers at my minions? I seriously want an explanation on how this is winnable.


When I post something in terms of power level it's speaking just in terms of statistics. While perception is important, it's hard to say 'this does or doesn't feel powerful to most people' because there is inevitably someone who disagrees. Perception is extremely important to us. Many of the card changes in Hearthstone's history have been specifically to address perception, not power level. That said, statistically, you aren't any more likely to win a game after you play Anduin in arena than you are Ysera. While most players (62ish%) do win after they play Anduin, that isn't much different than most end-game minions/spells.

Normally when we look at power statistics, we look at look at an advanced metric based off of draw/win rate. That essentially means how likely are you to win a game in which you have drawn this card. The cards I tend to see the most conversation around removing are the Priest, Mage, and Warlock 'DK' cards. Strictly in terms of statistics, the most powerful DK card is the Warrior one, and it's not that close. The point of all this is not to say you are wrong if you think DK's are too powerful, but dealing with issues of perception is different than dealing with issues of fairness/balance. If it was a fairness issue, I think we could feel good about removing the suite of cards that was too powerful with the idea that perception of power level would change because we solved a real statistical problem. Because we know these cards are not an actual power outlier (at least not the ones in question), I think it's reasonable to believe that the outcry to remove cards from arena would move on to whatever subset of cards is second on the list. Having powerful feeling cards in arena is important. If we removed all the cards people think are powerful that would probably result in an experience that is less fun. Ultimately we think arena is a better place for DK cards rather than a worse one, but given that the feedback has been so split I encourage you all to keep giving your opinions on the subject.
90-99% of this Board can't grasp the concept that the DK's really aren't that OP compared to what has existed in this game forever. You try to explain it to them and you are just met with ignorance and blind rage.
10/19/2017 09:39 AMPosted by August Dean Ayala
so long as they aren't exceeding the power level of all other cards in existence.
Good. So remove Frost Lich Jaina and Shadow Reaper Anduin then. Or are you telling me that these cards are not 3 times stronger than any card we've seen before? Even Heartharena rates them by far the best legendaries in the game. Only broken cards like Meteor can match them in rating.

However, I appreciate someone finally having a discussion with his community. There's some spine in there afterall.
10/27/2017 09:47 PMPosted by August Dean Ayala


When I post something in terms of power level it's speaking just in terms of statistics. While perception is important, it's hard to say 'this does or doesn't feel powerful to most people' because there is inevitably someone who disagrees.

Oh so your decisions are based on statistics and not perceptions? So that's why you remove mediocre cards like Vicious Fledgling (value rating 67 on Heartharena) after an outcry by hundreds of arena newbs, but actual broken cards like Shadowreaper Anduin (value rating 128) and Frost Lich Jaina (124 value) are totally fine. "We are objective hurr durr."

And it's not even the ratings that are so troubling to me. Tyrion Fordring is also 121 rating, but atleast you can remove him. You have an actual chance to counter him. Sure, I'm salty when he enters the board, but atleast I go down wishing I hadn't polymorphed that 5/6 the turn before rather than being femaledogslapped by some indestructable card that screams: "concede now because it's check-mate no matter how strong your hand is."

10/27/2017 09:47 PMPosted by August Dean Ayala
If we removed all the cards people think are powerful that would probably result in an experience that is less fun.

This is true, but the concept of Death Knights just doesn't work in arena. Furthermore, following this line of thinking confuses me even more when you remove Vicious Fledgeling. Personally I liked Vicious Fledgeling. It added an extra edge to arena.
I just don't want to feel like I've been kicked in the balls every time I lose. THAT is the problem. DKs are a kick in the balls.

You should strive for a balance that makes me feel like I lost fairly and can accept the outcome. This used to be the case. If I didn't play around Flamestrike on turn 7 and got wrecked, I knew it was because I overlooked something or took a calculated risk. Bring that feeling back.
The blizzard rep says they have removed things based on perception before, then uses statistics to say why DKs are not removed.

LOL

All I know is at above average wins, I am losing to the pure RNG of the draft (IE bc my opponent got DK for example) than I am winning because of my actual ability. I have beaten a DK a time or 2, but most of the time I should just concede because the value provided by the hero can't be beaten by what I have left.

And thanks for pointing out the sodomy that took place at 2-2 from a guy that had the warrior DK was already a loss from the start.

https://imgur.com/a/jdMvM

Seems to make sense to me. He had X therefore he wins. I was ahead before he played that card, stalled enough to pick up more taunts, etc.

Oh so your decisions are based on statistics and not perceptions?


You need to read the sentence 2 sentences after what you just quoted.

10/27/2017 09:47 PMPosted by August Dean Ayala


Many of the card changes in Hearthstone's history have been specifically to address perception, not power level.
10/19/2017 09:39 AMPosted by August Dean Ayala
We don't have any plan to take Death Knights out of arena. In most cases they are very powerful, but not any more powerful than other highly drafted legendary cards. The circumstance where people are drafting and playing powerful legendary cards from the set that just released is something we think is positive so long as they aren't exceeding the power level of all other cards in existence.


Eat my !@#$%^- you dumb *!@#.
10/28/2017 08:08 AMPosted by l4ndm1n3
The blizzard rep says they have removed things based on perception before, then uses statistics to say why DKs are not removed.

LOL

All I know is at above average wins, I am losing to the pure RNG of the draft (IE bc my opponent got DK for example) than I am winning because of my actual ability. I have beaten a DK a time or 2, but most of the time I should just concede because the value provided by the hero can't be beaten by what I have left.

And thanks for pointing out the sodomy that took place at 2-2 from a guy that had the warrior DK was already a loss from the start.

https://imgur.com/a/jdMvM

Seems to make sense to me. He had X therefore he wins. I was ahead before he played that card, stalled enough to pick up more taunts, etc.


Holy !@#$. This dev reply. I can't even. I think that is all the justification I need to uninstall this POS game. They can't even see the problem that even their PRO level and top tier players are saying is a real problem. Came to these boards to compalin of another arena run where i got shot down at 1-3 because of facing FL Jaina twice in a row and the answer is "that's not a problem. FL Jaina is not overpowered." %^-* this game. If you have no intention of even acknowledging issues in your game you can shove it up your !@#. I'll spend my money and time on something that wasnt made by retards.
My problem with DK cards is that they're permanent.

You can hard remove Ysera, Lich King, Deathwing, whatever. Sure they might get a dream card or a LK card, but that's a limited resource and it's gone when they use it.

The DK hero power is useable every turn and in most cases becomes insurmountable value.

Don't get me wrong you can beat DKs, I've done it often, even by outvaluing them (also shoutout to Mindbreaker), but in an otherwise close game, or a game where you're slightly ahead, losing it all to one card then falling progressively further behind because there is literally no card to remove the effect once they have it, feels awful.

If you're topdecking and opponent drops Lich King, I think "maybe I can topdeck my Mind Control or my SW: D or my Siphon Soul". If they play a DK I think "well guess I concede then".

EDIT: The best card I can think of comparing it to is Jaraxxus. However Jaraxxus hard sets your HP to 15, instead of giving you armor and he has nowhere near as powerful of an instant on board effect as the 9+ mana DKs, which either summon a 3/6 or revive a bunch of demons. In that sense it's a lot easier to tempo out a Jaraxxus from 15 health than a Jaina who just healed from 19 to 24 and now has a Water Ele with lifesteal.
10/19/2017 09:39 AMPosted by August Dean Ayala
We don't have any plan to take Death Knights out of arena. In most cases they are very powerful, but not any more powerful than other highly drafted legendary cards. The circumstance where people are drafting and playing powerful legendary cards from the set that just released is something we think is positive so long as they aren't exceeding the power level of all other cards in existence.


Just had a game clearly won and out pops DK Anduin, I lose. Your game and philosophy is fundamentally wrong. Arena is supposed to avoid this type of nonsense that wild and standard are designed around.
10/19/2017 08:38 AMPosted by Ryacchi
I honestly don't think they would need to remove any cards if they fixed how drafting worked. But since they aren't going to do that...


I agree the draw engine needs work, all you have to do is play several games and watch streamers, to see the proof.

I have seen streamers lose games many times to 50%+ top deck, bascially the other opponent needing a certain card and they win on the spot. In addition, there have been many time I have and encountered the opponent drawing perfect cards each turn.

The matchmaking is another factor into the draw engine. Quite frequently you can change decks and get the counter to the deck or class. Even further, changing a couple cards in your deck because you keep running into mages. What happens? Then you quit getting mages, do not get wrong I am not implying Blizzard is being devious. All I am saying the system need work.
10/27/2017 09:47 PMPosted by August Dean Ayala


When I post something in terms of power level it's speaking just in terms of statistics. While perception is important, it's hard to say 'this does or doesn't feel powerful to most people' because there is inevitably someone who disagrees.


[quote]Oh so your decisions are based on statistics and not perceptions? So that's why you remove mediocre cards like Vicious Fledgling (value rating 67 on Heartharena) after an outcry by hundreds of arena newbs, but actual broken cards like Shadowreaper Anduin (value rating 128) and Frost Lich Jaina (124 value) are totally fine. "We are objective hurr durr."


No. What I said was that it's difficult to talk about perception in black and white terms because there is always someone who will disagree. Not that we don't make decisions based on perception. Within that same comment, I mentioned we do make changes based on perception. Fledgling is a good example of that.
There already statistics on arena sites of more than 15,000 games that show how much of a power creep these cards are.

One hundred play tested games by staff members who aren't good at this game doesn't account for how broken these cards are in Arena; in standard they are completely fine, but here it's completely unfair.

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