Why does Lay On Hands cost 8 mana?

Play Mode Discussion
1 2 3 6 Next
The healing LOH offers is about ~1.5 mana value
The card draw LOH offers is ~5 mana value
High cost cards should get premium values, not premium taxes. But this card just seems to have a bonus mana on it for no reason.

Outside of super aggressive decks and divine favor, Paladin often struggles with consistent card draw, which is strange because they have(and have always had) a card that draws 3. Why does this card not cost 6 or 7 mana putting it more in line with similar cards such as nourish(which is right on curve for its value)?

In an aggressive matchup you are lucky to see turn 8, and even in that scenario spending your turn to cast LOH likely doesn't even mitigate the amount of damage you took last turn, and doesn't affect the board state in any way to hinder that damage from recurring again the next turn.

In a control matchup both players often sit near or effectively above 30 life, negating the value of the healing on LOH. You are often paying 8 mana to receive only 5 mana value in card draw.

I know Blizzard doesn't like/want to edit the classic/basic cards (or ANY cards for that matter). But Lay On Hands is a great and iconic card that seems to have fallen behind in a way that I don't think even standard format rotations will fix.

Why does this card cost 8 mana? Would this card be oppressive at 7 mana?
Oddly enough, Lay on Hands was actually a really solid paladin card once upon a time, due to how primo card draw was in paladin. With discover effects, it doesn't seem to be as important anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if, if they ever stopped printing discover cards, Lay on Hands rotated back into the meta.
10/22/2017 10:43 PMPosted by Beaky
Oddly enough, Lay on Hands was actually a really solid paladin card once upon a time, due to how primo card draw was in paladin. With discover effects, it doesn't seem to be as important anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if, if they ever stopped printing discover cards, Lay on Hands rotated back into the meta.


Off topic. I dont want discover cards to stop being printed, but I hope they tone down on them a bit in the next couple of sets. How many (competitive) decks are 30 cards anymore?

Its a cool effect, but like everything, its good in moderation. Its gone a tad overboard in the last year or so imo.
It's a classic card, so it's worth exactly as much as Nourish+Healing Touch. The cost is fair. Unfortunately, because 8 mana for no board interaction often leaves you too far behind these days.

As stated above, Discoveries pretty much fill the role of card draw for Pallies good enough. Also, there's just too many other good 8-drops for Paladin. Especially Rag Light, who heals for 8, but instead of draw, offers decent board presence, which is often more desirable.
You have to consider LOH was created a long time ago when the power level of cards were much lower and decks could afford to play that sort of card. Reasons to play LOH today are if you are playing a mid-ranged paladin deck and don't or don't want to have the curator package in it. It gives you card draw to give yourself extra steam and stabalise against aggressive strategies once you have taunts to protect yourself from minion/weapon based attacks.

Is the card over-costed for what it provides? Perhaps. As you said it is 5 mana worth of draw but it gives you 3 mana for 8 healing so in a sense it is a less versatile nourish and healing touch packaged into one. 2 cards in one is quite the value. I think the card cost is alright and I would play it in a wild midrange paladin today. I make this statement as a wild player who has accumulated over 750+ ranked wins as midrange paladin since the introduction of wild and standard formats.
Lay on Hands is a fairly powerful card in the right meta. Stitching two cards together to assume what their mana-cost should be doesn't always lead you to a realistic answer.

We have a (1) 2/2 Beast in Druid that is a good card, but not too powerful. I don't think we would ever make a card that said (2) Summon two 2/2 Beasts.

We have a (2) 1/2 Taunt, Poisonous in neutral. We certainly would not make a card that said (4) Summon two 1/2 minions with Taunt and Poisonous.

Comparing a card to other cards of a similar mana cost is usually a better path.
10/22/2017 10:55 PMPosted by August Dean Ayala
We have a (2) 1/2 Taunt, Poisonous in neutral. We certainly would not make a card that said (4) Summon two 1/2 minions with Taunt and Poisonous.

It's still weird that Webweave... or whatever that 2x 1/2 Poisonous Druid card is called, is 5 mana. Like... what did it even break at 4 mana?

Obviously a stronger druid at KotFT launch is a bad thing, but that play testing identified that as an issue over cards like Ultimate Infestation and Spreading Plague is still a little weird.
10/22/2017 10:55 PMPosted by August Dean Ayala
Stitching too cards together


Two :)

10/22/2017 10:55 PMPosted by August Dean Ayala
Comparing a card to other cards of a similar mana cost is usually a better path.


Yes, I agree. Perhaps Lightlord as I often wish I had a LOH instead of lightlord in my deck. They both cost the same and they both heal for eight with lightlord having a chance to heal more than once.

If you consider 8 healing to be worth 3 mana then for 5 mana you get 3 cards from LOH or an 8/8 if you play rag. I would argue that LOH is better for midranged decks and rag for control decks. Lay on hands allows a paladin player to be more aggressive and allows for some overextention into board clears while rag does not.

Many times as a midranged player I ask myself going into a heavy control match up, do I play minibot on 2 without a turn 4 play? or do I hero power on 2 so I can play a minibot alongside a hero power on 4? If I had LOH I would favour the former decision but if I have Rag instead of that I would favour the latter because Rag doesn't give me extra steam. It is a threat, yes but I cannot play it on a full board/populated board as I may overextent too much. Rag is arguably for control paladins which want repeated healing and don't want to draw too much into the late game to avoid excess fatigue damage.
10/22/2017 10:40 PMPosted by Badcandy
The healing LOH offers is about ~1.5 mana value
The card draw LOH offers is ~5 mana value


you're completely off

healing value is about 3 health for 1 mana. for example
holy light 2 mana 6 health
healing wave 3 mana 8 health
healing touch 3 mana 8 health
feral rage 3 mana 8 armor
greater healing potion 4 mana 12 health
10/22/2017 10:55 PMPosted by August Dean Ayala
Lay on Hands is a fairly powerful card in the right meta. Stitching two cards together to assume what their mana-cost should be doesn't always lead you to a realistic answer.

[/quote]

cough...ultimateinfestation...cough

'scuse me
10/22/2017 11:08 PMPosted by Vankrys
healing wave 3 mana 8 health


7/14 (if you win the joust)

Other than that, yeah, but as Dean said you dont just smash two cards together to determine what a cards worth, especially not a late game card.
10/22/2017 11:08 PMPosted by Vankrys
healing wave 3 mana 8 health


Healing wave is joust, heal for 7 if you lose, heal for 14 if you win.

In regards to him being off.... here are some other healing cards.
Healbot is a 3/3, 5 mana, heal 8. General stats for a 3 cost minion is roughly 3/3
Mistress of mixtures is 1 mana, 2/2, heal 4 to both players.
Corrupted healbot is 5 mana, 6/6, heal 8 to opponent.
Forbidden healing is 2 healing/mana
Ancient of lore is 7 mana, 5/5, choose 1: heal for 5. 5/5 stats is roughly 5 mana.
Tuskarr Jouster is 5 mana, 5/5, Joust and if you win heal for 7.
Flash heal is 1 mana heal 5.
Light of the Naruu is 1 mana, heal 3 and potentially summon a light warden (1 mana card)
Priestess of Elune is 6 mana, 5/4, heal 4 or something. 5/4 is roughly 4 cost minion.
Priest hero power is 2 mana heal 2.
Voodoo doctor is 1 mana, 1/1 heal 2.
The list goes on.

I don't think 1 mana for 3 healing is the average. I could be wrong if the numbers say so.
10/22/2017 11:11 PMPosted by Vankrys
10/22/2017 10:55 PMPosted by August Dean Ayala
Lay on Hands is a fairly powerful card in the right meta. Stitching two cards together to assume what their mana-cost should be doesn't always lead you to a realistic answer.



cough...ultimateinfestation...cough

'scuse me[/quote]

Ultimate infestation is a druid card printed way after LOH, which is a paladin card. The former costs 10 and the latter 8.
10/22/2017 10:40 PMPosted by Badcandy
The healing LOH offers is about ~1.5 mana value
The card draw LOH offers is ~5 mana value
High cost cards should get premium values, not premium taxes. But this card just seems to have a bonus mana on it for no reason.


Cards aren't balanced by simple arithmetic like this. The costs and power levels of cards are determined by what class they are going to be available to and what the devs want the card to do for the game. Nothing more, nothing less.

So you think druid being able to draw 3 cards for 5 mana means drawing 3 cards just costs 5 mana across the board? In any class? Just out of interest, do you think if they made a truesilver champion for druid it would cost 4 mana? Druid isn't a weapon class, so why would they suddenly get an exact copy of a weapon paladin has out of nowhere? Shouldn't it be harder for druid to play a weapon on the same power level as a paladin weapon? If every class could pay the same costs for the same abilities it would be hard to justify having so many classes if they can all do the same stuff just as easily as the others.

Paladin isn't as good at drawing cards as some other classes, so they get weaker sprint with life gain as an upside and they get weapons and divine shields and discover minions and board clears to help get card advantage in other ways. That's just the way paladin is.
10/22/2017 11:23 PMPosted by Mercutio
weaker sprint


Depends what you mean by weaker. It's not weaker when you start fatiguing.

10/22/2017 11:23 PMPosted by Mercutio
Paladin isn't as good at drawing cards as some other classes


Divine favour can be nutty. Solemn vigil can cost 0 mana. Paladins frequently run the neutral curator package and are perfectly capable of playing any other neutral draw. There's even that 1 mana draw a card when the enchanted minion attacks. I do not agree with this statement.
10/22/2017 10:55 PMPosted by August Dean Ayala
Comparing a card to other cards of a similar mana cost is usually a better path.
So about 8 mana spells... We have:
Dinosize
Free from Amber
Glactic Mysteries
Twisting Nether

and finally Lay on Hands

I believe if you want to rate, LoH and GM will be the last ones in my opinion and honestly, LoH is way too expensive... Cards like twisting nether can save you while burn your opponent down! It's like a Deathwing that doesn't remove your hand!
10/22/2017 11:46 PMPosted by NoobKnight
twisting nether can save you while burn your opponent down


That is true if the opponent has a board of minions. Let's look at this from another point of view. Back when handlock was still a thing I am sure they played copies of twisting nether but those would be useless if the opponent was a freeze mage. LOH however gives a paladin an additional form of healing post-Alexstraza. So depending on the situation either card can save players. They both have their uses but I can agree with your opinion due to the current meta.
Cards usually get a 1 mana discount for their effect, because the card itself is a ressource.

Drawing a card costs 2. (AI, Sprint)
Healing for 8 with Paladin costs 4 (Healing Touch)

Both effects combined are worth 10 mana, minus 1 for the card invested. You get an additional discount, because LoH is so expensive and 7+ mana cards are hard to play.

To me it seems like LoH is perfectly costed. The reason why it does not see play anymore is because Paladin has a lot of healing and strong expensive cards already and Control Paladin is bad.
10/22/2017 11:23 PMPosted by Mercutio
weaker sprint


Depends what you mean by weaker. It's not weaker when you start fatiguing.


Weaker as in not as good of a deal. It costs more mana and you draw fewer cards. The only benefit is life gain, which is dirt cheap in paladin and not as good as drawing a card generally. Rogue also doesn't have to pay full price for sprint, so there's that, too.

10/22/2017 11:23 PMPosted by Mercutio
Paladin isn't as good at drawing cards as some other classes


Divine favour can be nutty. Solemn vigil can cost 0 mana. Paladins frequently run the neutral curator package and are perfectly capable of playing any other neutral draw. There's even that 1 mana draw a card when the enchanted minion attacks. I do not agree with this statement.


The enchantment sees zero play, curator is not a paladin card and requires build around, vigil and favor are both situational and match up dependent. Paladin is never going to get reliable straight up card draw for cheap with no strings attached. They just aren't. They build up most of their card advantage in other ways. Just because they aren't in the ditch with hunter card draw doesn't mean they're doing particularly well with it.
Because it's a classic card and Blizzard has resigned to either power-creeping most classic cards or just rendering them obsolete.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum