Why did all these pro-players bring tier 3 decks to the World Championship?

Play Mode Discussion
VS has objectively told us that Razakus Priest and Cubelock are low tier 2 to tier 3 decks. Yet, 15 out of 16 of the players at the 2018 Hearthstone World Championships have included at least one of these scrub-tier decks in their line-ups. Surely they're all idiots? Maybe they should have at least read the meta report as background reading before heading into such a big event? Do your homework, people!

Not a single Aggro Paladin was brought to the tournament, But VS tells us that Aggro Paladin is much better than either Razakus Priest or Cubelock? Maybe I should enter the tournament, bring an Aggro Paladin, and sweep through to victory?

Omnislash is talking about how Razakus Priest and Cubelock are far-and-away the best decks in the meta, and how they're shaping the meta around them. Kolento has historically brought what he believes are objectively the best ladder decks to tournaments, and he brought both Priest and Warlock - BUT WHAT DO THESE SCRUBS KNOW? NEITHER OF THOSE DECKS ARE TIER 1!!???!!!!???
To answer your half sarcastic post with an intelligent response:

1) Most important remember the data is saying "the average player in a given rank range vs the average player in a given rank range." In a tournament setting the average skill/attention level is MUCH higher than the ladder.

2) In meta report #76 Razakus is the the top deck echelon area as the only T1 deck at the top bracket was Murlocadin but we all know that small winrate advantage could be tech'd out tomorrow

3) Banning matters, especially for Warlock. Bans significantly impact the power of decks and perhaps none more than Warlock who really wants to not see Priest.

Now I will say I disagree on Warlock being more powerful than Tempo Rogue, but that is just my opinion.
01/12/2018 06:00 AMPosted by Mick
VS has objectively told us that Razakus Priest and Cubelock are low tier 2 to tier 3 decks. Yet, 15 out of 16 of the players at the 2018 Hearthstone World Championships have included at least one of these scrub-tier decks in their line-ups. Surely they're all idiots? Maybe they should have at least read the meta report as background reading before heading into such a big event? Do your homework, people!

Not a single Aggro Paladin was brought to the tournament, But VS tells us that Aggro Paladin is much better than either Razakus Priest or Cubelock? Maybe I should enter the tournament, bring an Aggro Paladin, and sweep through to victory?

Omnislash is talking about how Razakus Priest and Cubelock are far-and-away the best decks in the meta, and how they're shaping the meta around them. Kolento has historically brought what he believes are objectively the best ladder decks to tournaments, and he brought both Priest and Warlock - BUT WHAT DO THESE SCRUBS KNOW? NEITHER OF THOSE DECKS ARE TIER 1!!???!!!!???


I'll bet you a grand right now that each and every one of them would smoke you in a best of 7 series with the decks they brought. You may think I'm joking but I'm deadly serious, I'm sure anyone one of them would be delighted to play you for 1/2 the winnings so it would be easy to set up.
Simple. ladder tiers on VS data are inferred from ladder population data. A meta is determined by its population. The 16 contestants for HCT are not representative of the ladder population. That 16 element HCT population has obvious systematic differences from ladder population, not just in play environment and experience, but in fundamental format. Therefore it will have systematic differences in metagame.
Ladder =/= tournament.

In ladder, the best decks are the most efficient ones. Meaning that hey have an interesting winrate compared to the lenght of their games.

In tournament, you will play reliable decks and/or decks that counter what you expect your opponents will bring.

Decks that are being brought in this tournament are more reliable than aggro paladin or cube lock.
Raza Priest is obviously the best deck at the moment, whoever says otherwise is either stubborn or don't play ranking enough. I don't think Cube/Control Warlock is the second best as it could be tech'd rather easy, in my opinion Tempo Rogue is the second best deck of the meta.
Guys please help me figure why is token druid picked more than aggro paladin ?!

A single hellfire or duskbreaker on turn 4 completely destroys aggro druid unlike aggro paladin, that can have divine shields to protect his minions, and most important a lot of card draw due to divine favour....

playing token druid against priest and warlock is a free loss unless their draw is
very
very
VERY poor.....

And sadly warlock and his cousin priest seems not to be out of meta :)

Big fails or a solid reason I'm missing?
Savage Roar. Sometimes, an agro Druid kills you on turn 4.
01/12/2018 07:12 AMPosted by LordStrego
Guys please help me figure why is token druid picked more than aggro paladin ?!


Aggro Druid is THE fastest aggro deck. Tempo Rogue is very prominent in the tournament line-up, and Aggro Paladin cannot rush it down fast enough to stop Tempo Rogue from clawing back the board and then finishing it off with its superior value game. Aggro Druid, however, IS fast enough to rush down Tempo Rogue.

Similarly, the speed of Aggro Druid helps it to beat down Cubelock just before Voidlord comes down whereas Aggro Paladin is that little bit slower so gets crushed by the Voidlord.
01/12/2018 06:00 AMPosted by Mick
VS has objectively told us that Razakus Priest and Cubelock are low tier 2 to tier 3 decks


did you know VS uses data from ranked /ladder ?
Tournaments and ladder have several differences to them.

Obviously the skill level is higher, but we have to remember that these ladder statistics hold true in all ranks, so how big is the difference really?

Bans matter a ton. You don't have that option on ladder and it completely changes which decks you can or need to counter with your decks. You simply cannot compare a ban meta to a no-ban meta.

Tournament players have to bring multiple decks from different classes. This naturally changes the meta inside the tournament because variety and balance is forced. It changes overall win rates for decks and is not something that is present on ladder.

Lastly there is bias. Tournament players do not have the same tools available to them to objectively analyze the meta they are going to be playing in. So they use their expertise and practice partners to make the best guess. That is incredibly vulnerable to bias.
01/12/2018 06:00 AMPosted by Mick
VS has objectively told us that Razakus Priest and Cubelock are low tier 2 to tier 3 decks. Yet, 15 out of 16 of the players at the 2018 Hearthstone World Championships have included at least one of these scrub-tier decks in their line-ups. Surely they're all idiots? Maybe they should have at least read the meta report as background reading before heading into such a big event? Do your homework, people!

Not a single Aggro Paladin was brought to the tournament, But VS tells us that Aggro Paladin is much better than either Razakus Priest or Cubelock? Maybe I should enter the tournament, bring an Aggro Paladin, and sweep through to victory?

Omnislash is talking about how Razakus Priest and Cubelock are far-and-away the best decks in the meta, and how they're shaping the meta around them. Kolento has historically brought what he believes are objectively the best ladder decks to tournaments, and he brought both Priest and Warlock - BUT WHAT DO THESE SCRUBS KNOW? NEITHER OF THOSE DECKS ARE TIER 1!!???!!!!???


CLEARLY you just missed the cut for the tournament and are just tilted.

How could they have overlooked your skill and intelligence?

Clearly they don't have as much skill as you otherwise they wouldn't be in the tournament...

Dumb top 16 players...pshhh!
01/12/2018 07:19 AMPosted by Mick
01/12/2018 07:12 AMPosted by LordStrego
Guys please help me figure why is token druid picked more than aggro paladin ?!


Aggro Druid is THE fastest aggro deck. Tempo Rogue is very prominent in the tournament line-up, and Aggro Paladin cannot rush it down fast enough to stop Tempo Rogue from clawing back the board and then finishing it off with its superior value game. Aggro Druid, however, IS fast enough to rush down Tempo Rogue.

Similarly, the speed of Aggro Druid helps it to beat down Cubelock just before Voidlord comes down whereas Aggro Paladin is that little bit slower so gets crushed by the Voidlord.


i play aggro druid. it's not good against lock UNLESS you manage to get both buffs off before he can hellfire. for example a good opening for me would look like raven, mole + pirate (+patches), mark + power or 2x mark. then you can almost 100% sure you are safe.
01/12/2018 07:19 AMPosted by Mick
01/12/2018 07:12 AMPosted by LordStrego
Guys please help me figure why is token druid picked more than aggro paladin ?!


Aggro Druid is THE fastest aggro deck. Tempo Rogue is very prominent in the tournament line-up, and Aggro Paladin cannot rush it down fast enough to stop Tempo Rogue from clawing back the board and then finishing it off with its superior value game. Aggro Druid, however, IS fast enough to rush down Tempo Rogue.

Similarly, the speed of Aggro Druid helps it to beat down Cubelock just before Voidlord comes down whereas Aggro Paladin is that little bit slower so gets crushed by the Voidlord.


Ok I understand your point but if their opponent has hellfire or just a duskbreaker it's game over 90% of the times, edit : since aggro druid lacks of card draw.....
01/12/2018 07:20 AMPosted by traja
Tournaments and ladder have several differences to them.

Obviously the skill level is higher, but we have to remember that these ladder statistics hold true in all ranks, so how big is the difference really?

Bans matter a ton. You don't have that option on ladder and it completely changes which decks you can or need to counter with your decks. You simply cannot compare a ban meta to a no-ban meta.

Tournament players have to bring multiple decks from different classes. This naturally changes the meta inside the tournament because variety and balance is forced. It changes overall win rates for decks and is not something that is present on ladder.

Lastly there is bias. Tournament players do not have the same tools available to them to objectively analyze the meta they are going to be playing in. So they use their expertise and practice partners to make the best guess. That is incredibly vulnerable to bias.
I agree with this, I just want to add that Raza Priest is Tier 1 and undeniably the best deck of the format and that's why most players will bring it to the tournament.
Razakus priest is not a tier 3 deck,VS has no tiers as a website they just list decks based on their winrates and divide them into tiers,if they did raza would be tier 1 just look at how much more playrate priest has in legend and you will understand.
Priest and warlock have shaped this meta.
Tier one decks are prone to be banned out. You can bring an agro pally, but if your not banning the deck that you brought aggro to counter, they will simply ban you aggro deck

The pros are trying to bring a line up of decks that

A. Only have a few bad match ups they can ban out

B. Bring decks with good match ups against a wide swath of the meta to be more effective
VS is a data driven report and Razakus priest as played by the average ladder player doesn't have a particularly high win%.

If played by a pro however it's a top tier deck.

The fact that every player gets a ban also changes things from ladder.

You can see this clearly in the tempo rogue lists for HCT , no spellbreakers! These builds would be bad for ladder, but they're not playing ladder matches.

That reminds me, we want TOURNAMENT MODE!
01/12/2018 09:01 AMPosted by megajeff
VS is a data driven report and Razakus priest as played by the average ladder player doesn't have a particularly high win%.

If played by a pro however it's a top tier deck.

The fact that every player gets a ban also changes things from ladder.

You can see this clearly in the tempo rogue lists for HCT , no spellbreakers! These builds would be bad for ladder, but they're not playing ladder matches.

That reminds me, we want TOURNAMENT MODE!


The statistics remain the same for the average player, the rank 5 to 1 player and the Legend player. That makes me think that it is unlikely that there would be a huge sudden jump in performance when pros are playing it against other pros.

Agreed on everything else. Tournament mode especially would be awesome, but I doubt it will happen in a proper form. It would be far more complex than anything else in Hearthstone. Blizzard hates complexity in Hearthstone.
Tournaments and ladder have several differences to them.
Bans matter a ton. You don't have that option on ladder and it completely changes which decks you can or need to counter with your decks. You simply cannot compare a ban meta to a no-ban meta.

[/quote]
This is why a ban option in ladder is a must. It has to be implemented now, not tomorrow, not after breakfast, NOW!

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum