Why did all these pro-players bring tier 3 decks to the World Championship?

Play Mode Discussion
01/12/2018 09:18 AMPosted by Indianwizy
This is why a ban option in ladder is a must. It has to be implemented now, not tomorrow, not after breakfast, NOW!


lol

01/12/2018 07:12 AMPosted by LordStrego
Guys please help me figure why is token druid picked more than aggro paladin ?!


Aggro druid is much , much better vs tempo rogue than aggro/murloc pally is.Both of those decks as aggro are weak to ctrl warlocks so you don't care about that matchup. You care about beating down their tempo rogue.
Raza Priest is the best deck atm and has almost no weaknesses other than supposedly some inconsistency
01/12/2018 09:18 AMPosted by Indianwizy
Tournaments and ladder have several differences to them.
Bans matter a ton. You don't have that option on ladder and it completely changes which decks you can or need to counter with your decks. You simply cannot compare a ban meta to a no-ban meta.

This is why a ban option in ladder is a must. It has to be implemented now, not tomorrow, not after breakfast, NOW!
Only if you have to play multiple different decks against each opponent to determine whether you win or lose the match.
01/12/2018 06:12 AMPosted by Lykotic
To answer your half sarcastic post with an intelligent response:


You knock that off!
01/12/2018 09:18 AMPosted by Indianwizy
Tournaments and ladder have several differences to them.
Bans matter a ton. You don't have that option on ladder and it completely changes which decks you can or need to counter with your decks. You simply cannot compare a ban meta to a no-ban meta.

This is why a ban option in ladder is a must. It has to be implemented now, not tomorrow, not after breakfast, NOW!


Why ban-option in ladder is a must? If anything showing with the HTC deck choice, that the tournament meta is a lot worse than the ladder meta with every one choosing the same 3-4 decks.

The power difference between the top 4 tournament decks compared with the rest is shocking, while we could still play meme decks like Kingsbane Rogue or Quest Mage in ladder.
Basically the meta defining decks right now are Control Lock (or Cube), Raza Priest and Tempo Rogue. The rest of the decks success on ladder is how well they can counter the above mentioned decks.
01/12/2018 10:19 AMPosted by jawsofwar
Basically the meta defining decks right now are Control Lock (or Cube), Raza Priest and Tempo Rogue. The rest of the decks success on ladder is how well they can counter the above mentioned decks.


Stop spreading lies, Control Lock and Raza Priest are not defining the ladder meta by sitting at the bottom of tier-3 lol. The one everyone counters are Aggro Paladin and Aggro Druid.

Tempo Rogue might get pass as well but it would still be iffy with its popularity in decline.
01/12/2018 10:23 AMPosted by NOC
01/12/2018 10:19 AMPosted by jawsofwar
Basically the meta defining decks right now are Control Lock (or Cube), Raza Priest and Tempo Rogue. The rest of the decks success on ladder is how well they can counter the above mentioned decks.


Stop spreading lies, Control Lock and Raza Priest are not defining the ladder meta by sitting at the bottom of tier-3 lol. The one everyone counters are Aggro Paladin and Aggro Druid.

Tempo Rogue might get pass as well but it would still be iffy with its popularity in decline.

Aggro Druid at 3.66% play rate cannot dictate anything to the ladder, so as you so said stop spreading bs.

Aggro Paladin (whether Shock or Murlocadin) does dictate some to the meta for certain as it makes up 11% of the meta combined (declining) and is the fastest deck I expect to need to build around.

Only 4 other decks (if we combine Aggro Paladin) break 10% usage rate:
• Razakus (11.3%)
• Dragon (10.3%)
• Control Warlock (12.2%)
• Tempo Rogue (10.8%)

The dictating decks have to come from this pool of 5 as they're the decks that one sees enough that one must consider when building or tweaking.

Note: Data from overall at 1-5 Raza is 18.7%, Warlock 11.7%, Tempo Rogue 13.4%, and Paladin is 10.9% (Dragon goes below 10)
Tournament is ladder with Bans and deck-bundle strategies.

So you start with ladder decks, and strategize your deck-bundle vs what you expect to face. Most take the approach of not trying to counter all the expected decks, they accept a loss against one deck, to maximize their other matchups instead of diluting their matchup odds.

Banning matters incredibly for what decks to bring.
Imagine if in ladder everyone could ban a matchup are you kidding me?

Banning is basically...a gigantic advantage for planning.

Players are super good in these Tournaments.

Whats not cool is the shown decklists to avoid unfair stuff. Consequence? All players and viewers know for sure each person's decklists before every match, every play.

That's totally not fun, I'm sorry, but showing the deckslists means no players are surprised during any match, and literally play knowing exactly what could be left in opponent's deck / hands, there is no uncertainty of what decks may contain...

*Edit - A second tournament strategy is to bring all of one decktype - like all aggro decks. Someone did this this summer, I think it was Surrender, I was talking to one of the HCT guys on my friends list. The guy started with predicting (which can be wrong) what the avg player should bring, brought all aggro himself, banned not-Priest - so accepted that loss - to gain a better matchup / tech-choices that don't try to take on Priest.

So to OP - tournament players bring T1 decks, and T3 decks, they don't just bring T3 decks (like your title suggests). They ban a certain deck, and strategize one way or the other for what they expect. If you ban say one type of T1 deck, that opens up T3 decks to 'rise' to T1 for that matchup when/if it comes, because that ban made that T3's deck overall Tier higher. Make sense? There's no way you can "tier" tournament decks in a vacuum like Ladder because bans, that change each matchup, that don't exist on open all 6 realistically classes ladder.
01/12/2018 09:18 AMPosted by Indianwizy
Tournaments and ladder have several differences to them.
Bans matter a ton. You don't have that option on ladder and it completely changes which decks you can or need to counter with your decks. You simply cannot compare a ban meta to a no-ban meta.

This is why a ban option in ladder is a must. It has to be implemented now, not tomorrow, not after breakfast, NOW!


As another poster has pointed out, surely this proves the exact opposite. A meta with bans is *less* diverse than one without. And that's with everybody forced to bring four decks.

You *could* have a "tournament mode" ladder where you queued with, say, three decks from different classes and, when you were matched against an opponent, you got to ban one of their decks, they got to ban one of yours, and then you picked one of the two remaining decks to play with.

The thing is, the system really only works if you play at least a best of three, and a ladder style system that requires three games to work isn't going to appeal to most players.
01/12/2018 10:23 AMPosted by NOC
01/12/2018 10:19 AMPosted by jawsofwar
Basically the meta defining decks right now are Control Lock (or Cube), Raza Priest and Tempo Rogue. The rest of the decks success on ladder is how well they can counter the above mentioned decks.


Stop spreading lies, Control Lock and Raza Priest are not defining the ladder meta by sitting at the bottom of tier-3 lol. The one everyone counters are Aggro Paladin and Aggro Druid.

Tempo Rogue might get pass as well but it would still be iffy with its popularity in decline.


You're so right.

Spell breaker and ooze are showing up in droves because of aggro paladin.

The tournament lists?

Clearly worried about teching against aggro paladin.

If Jessie weren't being so good lately at following through on his end, I'd be downright vile to you.

Instead, I'll just ask you to show me any real evidence of a meta trying to deal with paladin over cubelock and raza.
01/12/2018 11:03 AMPosted by Thorodan
Tournament is ladder with Bans and deck-bundle strategies.

So you start with ladder decks, and strategize your deck-bundle vs what you expect to face. Most take the approach of not trying to counter all the expected decks, they accept a loss against one deck, to maximize their other matchups instead of diluting their matchup odds.

Banning matters incredibly for what decks to bring.
Imagine if in ladder everyone could ban a matchup are you kidding me?

Banning is basically...a gigantic advantage for planning.

Players are super good in these Tournaments.

Whats not cool is the shown decklists to avoid unfair stuff. Consequence? All players and viewers know for sure each person's decklists before every match, every play.

That's totally not fun, I'm sorry, but showing the deckslists means no players are surprised during any match, and literally play knowing exactly what could be left in opponent's deck / hands, there is no uncertainty of what decks may contain...


That's an interesting point I hadn't really considered, why do they make the players reveal their decklists prior to the start?

I mean obviously they should have to reveal them to the tournament organisers, but why to everyone?

Could make for some interesting surprise choices, banking on incorrect mulligan etc, they could even let players rejig their decks between rounds then there would be some cool mindgames, is he still running Razakus priest or is it now Graveyard priest!? is this tempo rogue or mill?

Might even inject an extra layer of skill required to do well in tournies, not only do you need to play technically well, you also have to read the tournament meta and make tech adjustments or even change your line-up completely between rounds, and would also favour those players that can play a wide variety of styles really well.

What's the reason for open decklists?
I have 100% cubelock winrate (1-0 so far) .

Ask me anything
If Aggro Paladin is the real tier 1 deck of the meta - why isn't everyone banning it? Instead they are either banning Razakus Priest and tailoring their line-up to beat Cubelock, or banning Cubelock and tailoring their line-up to beat Razakus Priest?
01/12/2018 11:22 AMPosted by megajeff
What's the reason for open decklists?

Streamers felt that they were at an unfair disadvantage, since they were playing almost exclusively on stream, revealing their deck lists and pocket strategies, while non-streamers didn't have to tip their hand before the tournament in order to practice their surprise decks.

Honestly, it was most likely a loss for the competitive scene as a whole, but I can understand, to a point, why streamers wouldn't be rearing at the chance to play-test their decks off-stream, after an 8-10 hour day of Hearthstone.

A side deck would be nice for competitive Hearthstone, though and likely add to the competitive experience.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/217378916?t=41m00s

Here's what Zalae,Kibler and Firebat think about what decks define the meta. For those who don't wanna go through it they discuss how Warlock, Razanduin and tempo rogue are the central decks and most of the other decks are mostly answers to those. They are in consensus that Highlander priest is "broken" as Firebat puts it.

Don't get me wrong, aggro/murloc pally , aggro druid etc are very powerful climbing and top legend ranking decks but... actually watching channels like Feno,Sjow,Tyleroot,Crane etc that are mostly spamming games at top 50 on both NA and EU, the amount of Priest mirrors (or opponents when said players don't play priest) you see is staggering.

You also see a lot more Jade druids actually because of the fact that they are a very successful counter to Highlander Priest( it's bad against warlocks so in the HCT it makes no sense to bring i when you ban priest but those with a ban warlock strat actually brought it. I think there were 6 of em) You also don't see pure ctrl warlocks at all because they get farmed by Highlander Priests.Cubelock has a much better chance. In the tournament where you ban Priest though, ctrl warlock becomes a beast since pure ctrl warlock actually beats cubelock as well lol.

In any case the top Legend meta is very different than the VS stats would have you believe, but don't forget that many ladder grinders on their way to legend will also use aggro pally or druid to rank through lower ranks for saving time, and those games are within that sample size too.
The lineup of most of the tournament players makes a lot of sense, 2 control/combo decks and 2 aggro decks. why no aggro paladin in most cases? beacuse aggro palladin strengths are: they can repopulate the board quite fast and they punish/reload againts slow and midrange decks with divine favor as well as divine favor minions stick throug AOE; now their weakness: other aggresive decks such as aggro druid can buff and put more stats on the field quite faster also they have more taunts with more stats but less stickiness plus half a dagger heropower finally savage roar dictates you varely can leave anithing alive or you will die, rogue is the slower of the three, but runs more high end minions, has a dagger ideal to murder little key minions or knock divineshields as well as backstabs and SI:7, one keleseth especially bounced does wonders and finally their late game surpasses both druid's and pally's.
Most of the times you ban one control deck as well as expect to get one of yours banned, meaning you have 2 shots with aggro decks to kill the remaining one and take care of the other 2 aggros, meaning pally will be a bad decision againts 2 aggro decks that kill it while it perfoms well againts the one control deck remaining, you make your math and tell me OP what is the safest bet for the pot.
Finally I will say that indeed warlock and priest dictate the ladder meta around them, Pally is good beacuse is good againts those 2 as well as being a great aggro deck and for clibbing the ladder that's what many prefer since games ae faster and so on, rogue is currently good beacuse it prays on pally and can tech againts warlock.
01/12/2018 12:36 PMPosted by LeMao
The lineup of most of the tournament players makes a lot of sense, 2 control/combo decks and 2 aggro decks. why no aggro paladin in most cases? beacuse aggro palladin strengths are: they can repopulate the board quite fast and the punish slow and midrange decks with divine favor; now their weakness: other aggresive decks such as aggro druid can buff an put more stats on the field quite faster also they have more taunts with more stats but less stickiness plus half a dagger heropower, rogue is the slower of the three, but runs more high end minions, has a dagger ideal to murder little key minions or knock divineshields as well as backstabs and SI:7, one keleseth especially bounced does wonders and finally their late game surpasses both druid's and pally's.
Most of the times you ban one control deck as well as expect to get one of yours banned, meaning you have 2 shots with aggro decks to kill the remaining one and take care of the other 2 aggros, meaning pally will be a bad decision againts 2 aggro decks that kill it while it perfoms well againts the one control deck remaining, you make your math and tell me OP what is the safest bet for the pot.

generally aggro druid and keleseth rogue can fight for the board much better than paladin,what brings paladin his winrate is the ability to reload the board with consistent threats,which brings him more wins against control decks.
The OP is hamfisted in his approach, however, I think the point is every time some points out that Cubelock or Highlander Priest is oppressive the knee jerk response is just look at VS it’s a tier three deck your just a scrub that can’t play.
01/12/2018 12:41 PMPosted by Rainfall
generally aggro druid and keleseth rogue can fight for the board much better than paladin,what brings paladin his winrate is the ability to reload the board with consistent threats,which brings him more wins against control decks.

Thanks for the remark, I tend to whrite less than i'm thinking and go on thinking i whrote it :P

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