What does a "fair" combo deck look like?

Play Mode Discussion
Prev 1 3 4 5 6 Next
04/14/2018 12:43 PMPosted by Tao
So “fair” to you is “still loses to control”?


Where did I say that it loses to control? You assume that because you seem to believe the only way to beat control is to OTK control decks. But that's not true at all. Control decks can also lose to engine based decks, or decks that generate large scale value over time. Look at Jade's, a deck that generates an engine of value over time, that beat most control decks or at the very least was favored.

Divine Spirit combo priest is another fair combo deck. You have the ability to interact with and deal with the minions, the deck requires more than a single turn to work and requires themselves to keep around a minion. Stop acting like the only way combo decks are viable in the game is via OTK. Rock, Paper, Scissors is NOT how this game or any card game for that matter has ever been designed. Your personal constructs are your own and not reality.
04/14/2018 01:51 PMPosted by Amideus
Rock, Paper, Scissors is NOT how this game or any card game for that matter has ever been designed. Your personal constructs are your own and not reality.


Heh. My personal constructs that come from the gaming community and card game developers since the format began.

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/magic-classroom-rock-paper-scissors/

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-academy/aggro-combo-and-control-2007-01-27

Both links over a decade old and still valid for game designers.

Yugioh directly incorporates it into their deck design. https://bsu.campuslabs.com/engage/news/63629

I found references from SWCCG (awesome game that went defunct almost two decades before HS launched) to Shadowverse and some prelim stuff for Artifact.

If you want I can see if I can dig up textbook links where classes for game designers are taught about the importance of the core R/P/S mechanic and the balance of differing values for different players.
04/14/2018 09:44 AMPosted by Madman357357
If youre playing on ladder, and you find yourself running into a lot of Pirate Warrior, you can put some taunts and/or board clears in your deck throw a wrench in their plans. THAT is counterplay. You are directly impacting your opponents desired strategy and delaying that strategy so you can do achieve your own.

What does someone do against Shudderwock? What is the counterplay to that deck? Aside from "kill them", which is literally the goal for every single deck ever played, there is none. I mean hell, even Cube/Control lock has a little bit of counterplay since you can silence or hex/poly their minions. There is literally not one single way to counter Shudderwock Shamans strategy right now besides kill them before they do it.

But lack of counterplay is a mainstay of Hearthstone. Its existed for as long as ive played, and its always a source of tremendous frustration for me, so none of this is anything new.


I'm not sure you've played against jade druid or exodia mage before..
Shudderwock is not a combo deck, you don't have dead cards waiting. You just play your cards for what they do and you are guarantied a win when you get him. Only "counter" is to play agro and go face and some of us do not enjoy playing agro decks.....
1. A Combo deck that people would love would be one that has counterplay.

OTK Combo decks are so hated because there is just nothing you can do if you aren't play an Aggro deck. Hearthstone doesn't have any interaction with the player on their turn and a game like that doesn't need OTK combos.

2. A Combo deck that people would love is one that requires brain power to use and just doesn't set itself up for the player.

Take Shudder for example. Shudder just sets itself up as you play his key cards to help you stall. You don't have to time anything, you don't have to play cards in a specific order, you just play cards when you feel like it.

3. The new OTK Combo decks don't have dead cards anymore.

Dead cards use to be a counter as it forced the combo deck to make do with unusable cards, but ever since Patron Warrior, combo decks never have any more dead cards. Every card can be used to stall out the game.

All players want is interaction and these OTK decks strip them of any control as they watch the opponent play solitaire against themselves and the RNG of their deck.
04/14/2018 02:07 PMPosted by Tao
Heh. My personal constructs that come from the gaming community and card game developers since the format began.


No it doesn't. Trust me, I've been playing card games since High School and I've seen the evolution of the games beyond the scope of anything you seem to grasp.

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=1333

Here, try enlarging your understanding of the game. For instance, what do you think is the most difficult matchup for most Modern combo decks? Control decks, because control decks can interrupt and stop the combos. Aggro decks typically have a harder time with the deck because they can't always win fast enough, but the opposite observation exists in Hearthstone because control decks lack the ability to interact with combo decks because of how Hearthstone actually works as a game. On top of that, there are sometimes combo decks that beat control decks, and combo decks that beat aggro decks. Rock, Paper, Scissors is a myth, commonly one that players construct to excuse themselves from bad matchups.

All of your links are OPINION pieces, nothing more. None of them illustrate that the designers are actively using RPS as a design philosophy. And while my link is also personal opinion, it's a very common one shared by many of the MTG pros for that game. The simple thing is that what archtype a deck is has only a small bearing on how it interacts with other archtypes. It's more important to look at what the deck does, HOW it does that, and what tools are available in a given meta to interact with that deck before claiming RPS. Rock, Paper, Scissors is an excuse that bad players yse to justify how they see the game instead of actually bothering to learn about the decks and cards. Archtypes mean next to nothing.

And btw, while not a direct attack on PRS in game design, this is actually a video series on game design, by game designers, about these concepts. This one in particular is about perfect imbalance, avoiding established strategies and creating imbalance in the system. Which would be to circumvent the established idea of PRS based on archtypes. Having archtypes be the primary definition of how card games approach matchups would be BAD for the game, because instead of evolving your decks and strategies in a unique way, you are merely following a broad path of Smash combo decks with aggro, beat aggro with control, etc. Anyone that has played this game more than one rotation should easily be able to see that the meta game has plenty of decks that circumvent your extremely norrowminded view of archtypes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w
Give me back my Dirty Rat and you can play whatever crap you want.

Ya know - some counterplay instead of hyper aggro so I can play something else than paladin and hunter in ranked
Probably the best statement I have ever seen about card games. We shouldn't be talking about archtypes, we should be talking about the cards and how they work.

"Types don't beat types and decks don't beat decks. Cards and strategies beat other cards and strategies." - Chad Ellis
04/14/2018 07:49 AMPosted by Skydrake

This. Shudderwock is NOT a combo deck, it's just straight up nonsense.

[/quote]

Uh. Shudderwock is a pure combo card. The card on it's own does absolutely nothing. (If you doubt that, play it in a deck with no other battlecries *smirk*)

It's also a fairly difficult combo to pull off since it requires a second legendary which means 1/30 to get your Shudder then another 1/30 to get your Grumble.

Ya, if you pull it off correctly, you win. But there are quite a few combos that are like that, and most are easier than Shudder (*cough*cubelock*cough*).

So if they fix the 20 minutes of boring animation, the card is fine. Odd Aggro Pally, Cubelock, Spite Priests, etc. can all still beat it, and be beaten by it which is kinda how things should be.
04/14/2018 02:43 PMPosted by haargroth
Give me back my Dirty Rat and you can play whatever crap you want.

Ya know - some counterplay instead of hyper aggro so I can play something else than paladin and hunter in ranked


Even cubelock beats it. The fact you think you just have to play hyperaggro shows your lack of knowledge of the weaknesses of the deck.
04/14/2018 06:55 AMPosted by Arc
It's not even a real combo deck. In a real combo deck your combo pieces are dead cards in your hand until you execute the combo, so you have to manage your resources carefully. Shaman just throws down its combo pieces whenever convinient. What kind of real combo deck rewards garbage plays like throwing down Grumble on an empty board?

Don't people think any deeper into it?

Playing Shudderwock is NOT a combo.... Is playing N'zoth a combo? Of course not so what makes Shudderwock a combo?

You are correct sir. I played the shudderwock deck twice... once I realized I could do things like drop Grumble or Zola on an empty board, I deleted the deck. It isn't fun to play at all. You just stall while spamming battlecries and hope you put in enough draw to feed the beast.
04/14/2018 02:49 PMPosted by Christian96
04/14/2018 02:43 PMPosted by haargroth
Give me back my Dirty Rat and you can play whatever crap you want.

Ya know - some counterplay instead of hyper aggro so I can play something else than paladin and hunter in ranked


Even cubelock beats it. The fact you think you just have to play hyperaggro shows your lack of knowledge of the weaknesses of the deck.


It has weakness of being vulnerable to fast decks.

When I have tried it I have lost only when cubelock was running doomguards. If he decided to run cube voidlords it was piece of cake because they couldnt put enough pressure to stop me.

It also vulnerable to some homebrew taunt+mill druid I have tried, though aggro is atm the best bet to counter it when you run in ranked.

Maybe its you who lacks the knowledge of the deck
We have cards that silence minions, destroy weapons, destroy all secrets, but nothing that disrupts battlecry effects. I fully believe there should be a tech card for this with the drawback of it being bad against non-combo decks. Something like this (obviously mana cost/stats can be adjusted):

4 mana 4/3 Battlecry: Cancel the next enemy minion's battlecry effect.
I don't know about you, but I like longer games.

Things like Jade Idol, Exodia Mage (or Shaman) or whatever similar things... they put a timer on your head. You will LOSE the game if you don't start going face immediately.

That's the thing... those stupid decks put a timer on you.

I hate playing with a timer above my head. The timer is RNG based too. Maybe they'll draw it next turn. Maybe it's the last card.

I realize that Aggro keeps most of those decks from getting rampant, and I am thankful for that. Thanks to aggro, their win-rate is low. However, "low win-rate" doesn't mean it has low win-rate against every deck. They crush slower decks while getting crushed by faster deck. It's literally the classic "Freeze Mage vs Control Warrior" matchup. Freeze Mage got to go face fast for any chance of victory --- slower decks got to SMOrc before they inevitably lose.
04/14/2018 03:01 PMPosted by haargroth

It has weakness of being vulnerable to fast decks.

When I have tried it I have lost only when cubelock was running doomguards. If he decided to run cube voidlords it was piece of cake because they couldnt put enough pressure to stop me.

It also vulnerable to some homebrew taunt+mill druid I have tried, though aggro is atm the best bet to counter it when you run in ranked.

Maybe its you who lacks the knowledge of the deck


I think you might want to revision the cubelock matchup, the warlock should be def favoured unless the shaman nutdraws imo. (Drawing all the combo pieces and shudder before turn 10)
I am trying to understand the situation here. So people want a card like dirty rat which, if put in their deck, can significantly increase the winrate against Shudderwock? Is that it? But at the moment, people already have 60% average winrate against Shudderwock OTK deck, which I assume will get higher as people refine their decks. Do people really need special tech card to make their winrate against this deck up to 70% or 80%?

Let's chill a little bit. We are doing all right without special tech card already. We don't need to feel so unsafe about this deck going mad. It is not happening now! Don't let our imagination go wild :< .

By the way, I feel this deck is a combo deck if we do not limit the resources in hearthstone to be only hand and board. Minions played and spells played previously can all be seen a kind of resource. And Shudderwock brings a new kind of resource into the game, that is battle cries.
04/14/2018 04:24 PMPosted by Rock

By the way, I feel this deck is a combo deck if we do not limit the resources in hearthstone to be only hand and board. Minions played and spells played previously can all be seen a kind of resource. And Shudderwock brings a new kind of resource into the game, that is battle cries.


That's cool dude, but it's not a combo deck. It's a stupid deck... with one card that synergizes with all the battlecries you've played. Literally no combo is played on turn 9. Usually.
04/14/2018 02:41 PMPosted by Amideus
04/14/2018 02:07 PMPosted by Tao
Heh. My personal constructs that come from the gaming community and card game developers since the format began.


No it doesn't. Trust me, I've been playing card games since High School and I've seen the evolution of the games beyond the scope of anything you seem to grasp.


Oh good heavens. You’ve played card games since High School. How many college level classes on game design have you taken? How many games have you made? How many times have you iterated on your design to try and balance it?

And of course the links I provided are opinion pieces. They just happen to be the opinions of people in the game industry. They happen to be writing in the column started by Mark Rosewater, who mentioned in his first post that “Let me begin by stressing that I do not work for Wizards of the Coast. I am a freelancer who writes for them. (Check out my Magic puzzles elsewhere on this very site.) Fact is, Richard would be writing "Making Magic" if he had the time to write a weekly column.”

And if you don’t know who that ’freelancer who doesn’t work for Wizards’ is, well, he’s been the lead designer for MtG for 15 years now.

Source-https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/nights-round-table-1993-12-06

Here, how about a quote from Richard Garfield, the Creator of Magic the Gathering and hence the collectible card game format?

”Rock-paper-scissors' structure -- where every element of a game is strong against a different element -- is incredibly helpful to keep in mind while balancing,” Garfield says. “On the component level it appears in a broad range of games, from Stratego to Team Fortress 2. On the holistic level it works too -- take rush, defense and economic-oriented gameplay patterns for Starcraft, where each strategy is weak to one other strategy.”


He then goes on to praise Blizzard’s approach to R/P/S in StarCraft.

Source- https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/181326/Magic_The_Gatherings_Richard_Garfields_strategies_for_game_balancing.php

I’m sorry if this somehow offends you. It truly is basic card game design to have deck type advantages in at a minimum of a triad. The Color Pie in MtG started out as a Wu Xing 5 way rock-paper-scissors approach to balance.

It need not be aggro/combo/control. It can be Zerg/Terran/Protoss. But there needs to be at least three types or styles that provide advantage to one another. Two doesn’t cut it.
04/14/2018 04:34 PMPosted by Tao
I’m sorry if this somehow offends you. It truly is basic card game design to have deck type advantages in at a minimum of a triad. The Color Pie in MtG started out as a Wu Xing 5 way rock-paper-scissors approach to balance.


YOU ARE SPECIFICALLY ONLY TALKING ABOUT RPS IN ARCHTYPE, WHICH DOES NOT EXIST. The fact you can't tell the difference between them and constantly conflate them shows you're too far gone. You even posting information that supported my viewpoint but can't manage to realize that.

It's not about archtypes, it's about the cards themselves. Stop getting stuck on aggro, control, and combo as archtypes that mean anything. They don't. Game isn't balanced around archtype RPS, which is exactly what I have said since the beginning.

90% of the people on this forum don't have a clue what they are talking about.
Shudderwock definitely has counterplay,

but sadly the counterplay consists of aggro decks. You can't silence battlecries, you can't stop the shudderwock in any way when it comes out. Your best option to beat it is playing full aggro to try and kill it before shudder comes out.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum