Hunters really need better card draw options...

Play Mode Discussion
Tracking can really hurt you (and in my case does so in most cases) because you have to burn 2 cards, flare only gives one card and...

Well, thats basically it for hunter card draw...

There is that one minion, but it has really bad stats and is way too expensive...
I agree. Anytime you use hunter it seems you have no choice but to get one card per turn via normal draw and that’s it. Hard to find a good neutral that fits in any decks which draws cards for you. Acolyte of pain for example doesn’t work in hunter.
05/28/2018 03:47 AMPosted by Mikey
I agree. Anytime you use hunter it seems you have no choice but to get one card per turn via normal draw and that’s it. Hard to find a good neutral that fits in any decks which draws cards for you. Acolyte of pain for example doesn’t work in hunter.


I lately switched from 2xtracking to 2x this 2 mana 1/1 that draws a card...
Tracking just burned important cards way too often to be kept...
Ikr. I like the class in general but my greedy control player's heart just can't accept playing tracking (even though it's honestly a good card), so I end up playing some bad neutral draw cards (4 mana 2/4 and 2 mana 2/1
05/28/2018 03:56 AMPosted by Raoul9753
I lately switched from 2xtracking to 2x this 2 mana 1/1 that draws a card...
Tracking just burned important cards way too often to be kept...
Tracking shouldn't be used as card draw but a pro-active or re-active, in a literal sense, fishing for solution card . Like, if you have Spellstone in your opening hand but no secrets, Tracking. If you have secrets in your opening hand but no Spellstone, Tracking. Or, if you're losing on board, need board clear, Tracking for DK or Unleash. Need burst, Tracking, etc.

Also, as you mentioned Novice Engineer in your deck, you clearly are not playing spell hunter. In that case, you're more likely not focusing on fatigue game, making your reluctance on Tracking more unreasonable. Standard defence for cards like Tracking or Fel Reaver is, think of the discarded cards as cards in the bottom of your deck. As the way your deck works is to not reach the bottom of your deck/fatigue (if you did, you already lost), it doesn't matter if those cards are discarded.

Hunter has had problem with card draw for a long time. But DK Rexxar and Rhok'delar was printed. More a, and one of them is, spell hunter deck archetype cards, but it generates value, random, but cards out of thin air.
A lot of players seem to focus way too much on the 2 cards burned by tracking.

If you don't get to fatigue it doesn't matter. Those 2 cards could have been the last 2 in your deck and it would be exactly the same.

The tracking problem is only a problem if you play heavy control as a hunter and plan to go into fatigue. And If you do so, why using card draw ?

Also you have to remember that hunter has the best aggro hero power of the game. 2 damages for 2 without costing a card is massive if optimized. Hunter also has a lot of efficient direct damage spells (kill command in particular).
Aggro hunter was always at least kind of good. Giving him better draw may make it oppressive.
Then why not make the card draw in a way, that would not fit agressive hunter decks?
Like:
Reload
1 mana : for the next use only, your hero power becomes "2 mana: draw 2 cards".

Which would be a total of 3 mana for 2 cards, and it would hurt aggro decks because you cant do 2/3 damage this turn.
Tracking us an excellent card unless you're running a slow deck that relies on specific cards. It's superb at finding key cards and running out of cards in deck is hardly ever a Hunter issue. Even then it's a decent option when used a bit later in the game. For slower Hunter decks, Stitched Tracker (pseudo draw) is really good.
In my current Control Hunter deck I'm running 2xStitched Tracker, 2xTol'vir Warden, 1xWitchwood Piper and Countess Ashmore. With card generation from DK Rexxar too this works out ok. If I needed more I'd add Tracking or another Witchwood Piper. There are other neutral options as well. Cult Master ain't bad if you're running UTC.

Hunter is always going to have quite bad draw due to the aggressive core of the class. Personally I'd like them to add a Control-only draw card like Lay On Hands but I'm not holding my breath.
05/28/2018 05:09 AMPosted by Raoul9753
Then why not make the card draw in a way, that would not fit agressive hunter decks?


That's what post nerf buzzard is. Or auctioneer as a neutral option. Turns out card draw that does not fit aggressive decks simply don't fit in most hunter decks period, because hunters can't afford to lose that much tempo. The reason tracking is seen as good is because even while it discards two, the minimal tempo loss is worth it (plus you get a choice from 3, which reduces randomness)

"So then don't impose such a high penalty"... then you run right back into it being able to fit into aggressive decks.

Like:
Reload
1 mana : for the next use only, your hero power becomes "2 mana: draw 2 cards".

Which would be a total of 3 mana for 2 cards, and it would hurt aggro decks because you cant do 2/3 damage this turn.


That would still fit into an aggressive deck. 3 mana draw 2 is the same as a mage's arcane brilliance, and mages, if they want to, can totally fit such a card in their aggressive decks.

It takes a lot more to make a card draw not work well with aggressive decks, because card draw is just that powerful.
05/28/2018 06:58 AMPosted by First123


That would still fit into an aggressive deck. 3 mana draw 2 is the same as a mage's arcane brilliance, and mages, if they want to, can totally fit such a card in their aggressive decks.

It takes a lot more to make a card draw not work well with aggressive decks, because card draw is just that powerful.


It was just an example.
What i was trying to say was that it should be able to design a card that non aggro hunters can use, but which is also too punishing for aggro decks.
My example was to disable the face hp for a turn, but maybe it could also be done differently.
05/28/2018 03:56 AMPosted by Raoul9753
05/28/2018 03:47 AMPosted by Mikey
I agree. Anytime you use hunter it seems you have no choice but to get one card per turn via normal draw and that’s it. Hard to find a good neutral that fits in any decks which draws cards for you. Acolyte of pain for example doesn’t work in hunter.


I lately switched from 2xtracking to 2x this 2 mana 1/1 that draws a card...
Tracking just burned important cards way too often to be kept...


Tracking isn't a card draw mechanic though... It's used to find answers in a tough spot. You're about to LOSE the game next turn, the only card that can turn the game around is Deathstalker Rexxar... You have 9 cards left in your deck, well, bam, you have a high chance to turn the game around, and all you lose is 2-3 cards that won't turn the game around...

People who use Tracking as a means to carelessly draw cards during a normal scenario game, lose more games. Tracking is your plan B. Your ace up the sleeve when your opponent thinks they won the game already you Tracking>Rexxar>Explosive Trap and flip the game around entirely most of the time. The original post stands, there's basically no draw in hunter. RIP Buzzard.
Valid concern, however classes should maintain their class strengths and identity. Giving fast and aggressive classes access to class draw mechanics is what created the current aggro paladin Meta issues.

Hunter with class specific draws would quickly get OP again. Perhaps a better idea is if the class were given a variety of 'discover' cards allowing it to pick and choose either hunter cards or minions in the future. That would push it into a more competitive stance without making it over powered.
My opinion on tracking is the same as mentioned above, you should use when you HAVE to find a key piece that can save you, but it's not as good as a simple card draw which most classes have about 2~3 good cards that can do that.

Starving buzzard has such a high cost for a mediocre card and requires you to play a beast in order to draw. Flare is just meh.

For quest hunter I'm using cult master, which is not good, but it's the best tool we got for drawing cards imo.

So yeah, def need more options.
It is really not that difficult tbh just make the draw have a restriction there is endless ones to choose from.

Can only be played if you control a beast that costs x amount of mana

Can only be played while you have a secret in play

Or make it cost a lot and refresh some crystals afterwards.

There is a million ways to make car ddraw that does not flat out suck while making it either impossible or very unattractive for a fast aggro hunter to play.

"Hunter as a class does not get good draw" feels !@#$ty but at least has some ground given Blizzards design ideas.

"It would make aggro opressive" is really no argument, there are so many options to not have it be run in aggressive decks.

Also Tracking is not actually card advantage it is card selection, it does not actually increase the amount of cards iny our hand. It is a good card but not carddraw in the general sense where it either craws more cards than invested or does something AND replaces itself.
tracking is really good now that you can find your dk rexxar or other important cards. losing some cards doesn't hurt hunter that much. hunters biggest win conditions for the late game are dk rexxar, rhok'delar and katrina. as long as hunters have rexxar they dont really need card draw. once rexxar rotates then we can talk about it.
Every class has strengths and weaknesses.

The Hunter's kit packs a lot of burst damage and high-value minions with beast synergy, but has weak card draw options to compensate.

That's how balance works.
You don't hunter with card draw in ANY meta. It existed before and there's a reason it was changed and they were never given reliable card draw again.
I tend to rely on slower and pricier cards to draw. I also rely on value.

Lady Ashmore (can draw up to 3 minions), Kathrena (can recruit up to 2 beasts), DK, Harrison Jones (conditional), Witchwood Piper (it draws the minion I need), Stitched Tracker (I can target taunt to defend against Aggro, or value cards against Control) and Stonehill Defender. Play Dead + Cube can generate value.
Tracking can have some bad rng at times, sure. But I like it, because it lets me get to the cards I need faster.
I'm gonna hit some of the notes from various posters.

"Hunter card draw would make it's aggro package oppressive"

All good aggro decks have card draw (or refuel) options. Any aggro deck without them is bad, in nearly every case. The difference between a good deck and a bad one in any archetype can be viewed as the difference in hand resource generation.

To declare it oppressive is sort of stupid, because we've been fine with others having it. All aggro druids have had a measure of it. Paladins certainly do. Priests have fielded various aggressive decks and they have tons of draw.

Warlock freaking zoo has draw without a single card added for it.

Aggro with card draw is fine.

"Tracking is for pulling an answer not drawing cards recklessly"

Yes, no. Weaving a tracking in when able is perfectly fine. Any lost cards are no different than cards never drawn. Better, those lost cards make it more likely you will draw into things you need by removing cards from the deck. (Remember, you all said that's what made call to arms so good? You can't believe that and not apply it laterally)

"Tracking is so weak, you get one card and spend 3"

At its worst, it allows you to run a, functionally, 26 card deck. I'm not going to explain how that makes it better than all other card draw in most cases...others surely will.

At its best it's a tutor which pulls the answer you need and wins a game. It does so in a way superior to all other card draw spells in the game for it's cost.

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