Warlock able to mill 12 cards from your hand ...

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So this is maybe the most overpowered thing I have ever seen in the game EVER.

With the new card that allows warlocks to give you one of their cards they can give you their 3-6 card that mills a card from your hand every time it takes damage then combine it with defile to mill up to a potential 6 cards from your hand. They can do this twice !!!

This needs to be fixed ASAP it’s the most brain dead thing the game has ever seen. In what world is it ok to give a class the potential to mill up to 12 cards from your hand .... there is absolutely no counter play to this and it’s the most broken, overpowered thing conceivable!!!!

Fix this now ...
12 cards are not enough. Warlock and all classes need the ability to mill the entire 30 cards otherwise abnomination like Shudderwock would keep emerge.
But it's SO. DANG. FUN!!

Seriously, folks keep begging for a way - ANY way - to shut down decks like Shudderwock. Throw Rin in and whatever Priest thinks he's gonna avoid fatigue is in for a very rude awakening.
I would gladly play agaisnt shudderwalk any day then deal with the absolute nonsensical asinine nature of having up to 12 of my cards in hand milled during the course of a match with absolutely 0 counter play. It literally is the most broken/overpowered/brain dead thing this game has ever had.

This needs to stop and be balanced.
08/05/2018 10:09 PMPosted by Incognito
So this is maybe the most overpowered thing I have ever seen in the game EVER.

With the new card that allows warlocks to give you one of their cards they can give you their 3-6 card that mills a card from your hand every time it takes damage then combine it with defile to mill up to a potential 6 cards from your hand. They can do this twice !!!

This needs to be fixed ASAP it’s the most brain dead thing the game has ever seen. In what world is it ok to give a class the potential to mill up to 12 cards from your hand .... there is absolutely no counter play to this and it’s the most broken, overpowered thing conceivable!!!!

Fix this now ...

Whining over an off-meta deck lol
08/05/2018 10:09 PMPosted by Incognito
So this is maybe the most overpowered thing I have ever seen in the game EVER.

With the new card that allows warlocks to give you one of their cards they can give you their 3-6 card that mills a card from your hand every time it takes damage then combine it with defile to mill up to a potential 6 cards from your hand. They can do this twice !!!

This needs to be fixed ASAP it’s the most brain dead thing the game has ever seen. In what world is it ok to give a class the potential to mill up to 12 cards from your hand .... there is absolutely no counter play to this and it’s the most broken, overpowered thing conceivable!!!!

Fix this now ...
kingsbane mill rogue deck is way worse if you are comparing the two.
So when it becomes meta it will some now justify balancing it ?? Your logic is flawed at its core. If something is blatantly unbalanced it need to be balanced regardless if it’s meta or not. This brain dead card will soon be meta just wait and see.
Heh. Because we're seeing SO many warlocks using this supposedly overpowered combo, right?

Oh, wait, we're not. Because it's a combo that's actually difficult to pull off: you need multiple cards to combo AND the right board state to actually end up with a decent mill, and not just handing your opponent an extra minion to buff and rush you down with.

I'm not normally the one to do the whole "it's only got a 50% win rate so it's fine" argument, and I'll even admit to some bias because I've enjoyed using the combo in the past... but the Treachery/Howlfiend combo sees barely any play. Yes, some combos feel like utter bull!@#$ IF they get pulled off, but that's a very big IF. Chances are a lot of those 'bread dead thing' decks are ones you stomped over multiple times in the past before they could line up everything in order.
New card? Are we talking about a card other than Treachery?

Anyway, if it's Treachery: don't forget your opponent had to pay 3 cards as well, pay 6 mana on top of that, and set up a board where Defile can trigger 6x which means additional cards and mana used, unless you yourself were so nice to set up a board that screams "Defile me!". On top of all that, your opponent also had to pray you kept 6+ cards in your hand: any fewer and the combo loses even more power. If you kept only 3 cards or fewer in your hand, the combo's pretty much useless due to the amount of cards it takes.
I agree with op. Discarding really sux and it shouldnt be able to be forced on opponent by treachery howlfiend.
So basically warlock mains trying to justify how retarded this combo is. The setup really isn’t that hard. The warlock builds board state and executed the brain dead play. Not all decks can simply play all the cards in their hand to keep a low count. Even milling 3 cards from your opponents hand is insanely strong the max potential of 6x2 is absolute insanity.

Not to mention the deck also runs gnomerfaratu to mill even more cards.

There basically is 0 counter play to it, the justification of cost to execute is laughable.

There also is a huge discrepancy between forcing your opponent to mill their existing hand vs forcing milled cards from over drawing.

Completely obliterating your opponents hand leaves them completely handicapped the rest of the game unless they can magically conjure card draw leaving you susceptible again to the same asinine combo.

Anyone remotely justifying the balance to this I would be hard pressed to believe are not warlock mains that just like to faceroll with the combo.
08/05/2018 10:36 PMPosted by Incognito
So when it becomes meta it will some now justify balancing it ?? Your logic is flawed at its core. If something is blatantly unbalanced it need to be balanced regardless if it’s meta or not. This brain dead card will soon be meta just wait and see.


Yes, that's how it works, friend. Strategies that don't see much play are considered to be fine, regardless of how bull!@#$ the outcome is IF all of the stars align, while strategies that are used ALL THE TIME are considered to be high tier at best, and need nerfing at worst.

Anyway, Blizzard takes months to nerf blatantly overpowered cards that are played all the time in all the decks. What makes you think they're going to go out of their way to nerf an already extremely niche card that barely sees any play?
Where do Hearthstone players get this idea that every single thing that their opponent can do requires counterplay in the form of ALWAYS being able to prevent it?

I can only imagine the vitrol some of you folks would spit if you played MtG and came up against a Blue deck.
wrecked funnest deck atm by far
So many on this forum like to say there is "no counterplay" to the thing they lose to. It's always been an absolutely terrible argument.

"Counterplay" does not have to be something you do in response to a huge play your opponent makes. It can be a response to their general strategy, or a proactive strategy of your own that forces them to play their cards suboptimally.

In chess, you don't wait for your opponent to perfectly set up their pieces, and start their attack, before you respond to it. You lose every time that way (unless they are just awful). Instead, you look at the several moves they are threatening to make, and respond with one that prevents their optimal setup, or threaten an attack of your own that they need to respond to.

That's right: sometimes an attack of your own is the best response to your opponent's attack. It happens almost all the time when the kings are castled on opposite sides, but it certainly isn't limited to that. Anyone failing to see that a proactive strategy is indeed "counterplay" just doesn't understand games very well.
Tell me what other deck has the potential insane power equivalent to milling up to 12 cards from your OPPONENTS HAND.

It’s one thing for decks to have insanely strong gimmicks that are hard to pull off without really good rng ... milling your opponents hand IN A CARD GAME ...is not acceptable ever under any circumstance regardless the cost.
08/05/2018 10:38 PMPosted by Zerfinity
If you kept only 3 cards or fewer in your hand, the combo's pretty much useless due to the amount of cards it takes.


I have had it mill 3 cards from my hand and I conceded as went from good chance of win to zero chance of a win.

But in general its not OP and I have beaten decks playing it, its just extremely annoying to loose your entire hand to it. Its not like you can tell before hand that its a treachery deck as different from your normal warlock control.
This happened to me a few times, it was fun. I support any kind of mill decks, as i find !@#$ting on opponents plans great. I would still play mill druid/rogue, but they destroyed those decks..
Ya know what...at least OP isn't whining about Shudderwock...

In the fairness of disclosure, I have put together a deck that managed to mill 8 cards from my opponent and discard 2 more with Gnomeferatu. It's important to remember that I'm a meme-first player, and so winrate usually isn't that big of a deal to me versus how hysterically funny actually pulling off some insane combo is.

If, as OP suggest, this was some super powerful combo, you'd see it more often.

The problem is that you are committing 8 mana and careful setup to pull this off. If you want to do that twice to get the full 12 cards milled...uh...you'd be WAY better off playing the lottery in terms of your odds.

Here's what you require to mill 12 cards:
You have to have at least 8 mana.
You have to have Treachery, Howlfiend, and Defile in your hand.
There must be a 1,2,3,4, and 5 health minion already on the board, or you need some way to attack to create that situation.
Your opponent cannot already have 7 minions on the board, or you need some way to remove one of them.
Your opponent cannot be a Mage with an active Counterspell or Exploding Runes
Your opponent cannot be a Hunter with an active Snipe (you can still get 2 cards, but you're not getting your 12 total)
Your opponent must have at least 6 cards in hand both times you play the combo.
Jupiter must be ascending into the second house of Venus while Saturn is descending.
It must be the 3rd Tuesday of the month in a month that only has 3 Tuesdays.

The reality is that Treachery is in less than 1% of all decks, the decks it is in have a 43% win rate, and Warlocks have so many better options for ruining your day why would they bother with this nonsense?
Anyone complaining about treachery + howlfiend + defile need to try and pull it off before calling it brain dead.

You can have an opinion on something when you have atleast some experience on it.

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