Warlock able to mill 12 cards from your hand ...

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Lol what is this post..?

You’re really asking to nerf a 3 card combo that is INCREDIBLY convoluted and difficult to pull off successfully....the combo takes a LOT of set up to get any value out of it (make you discard as many cards as possible).

Aren’t there better things to cry nerf about? Just get on the Shudderwock bandwagon. At least that’s consistent enough to warrant a possible complaint. This....this HAS to just be grief because the consistency of this combo is just BAD.
No you guys are overplaying the cost of the combo. Even milling 2-4 cards per combo is insanely broken. Let alone up to 12 (not including 2 more from gnome).

Cards are the quintessential most valuable aspect of a A CARD GAME ... being able to @%@@*@#! your opponents hand is broken op
08/05/2018 11:56 PMPosted by Incognito
No you guys are overplaying the cost of the combo. Even milling 2-4 cards per combo is insanely broken. Let alone up to 12 (not including 2 more from gnome).

Cards are the quintessential most valuable aspect of a A CARD GAME ... being able to @%@@*@#! your opponents hand is broken op


And, you’ve pulled the combo off how many times?
Play around defile, like you do against any current control warlock, and they'll never mill 6 cards from one Howlfiend.
People who want to play warlock and win play zoo. People who play this deck are looking to have a hilarious fun time. The combo is completely useless against aggro since they won't have enough cards in hand to make it worthwhile, plus they'll probably just kill you while you curse not being able to play Skull because you have a Howlfiend in hand (it will 100% pull the Howlfiend and your Voidlord and Gul'dan will get milled - every time). This is a dangerous deck to play, but getting to shout "How are you going to play a card game WITHOUT CARDS MWAHAHAHAHAH!!!!" as the opponent's hand empties is worth it. And that shiny star that gets you one step closer to rank 19 (because you've been playing this deck).
08/06/2018 12:09 AMPosted by mygeL
Play around defile, like you do against any current control warlock, and they'll never mill 6 cards from one Howlfiend.


If I'm not holding 6 cards then it doesn't need to. Warlock sees I have 3 cards in hand and there is a board state to abuse defile's effects. Then just play the three cards and reap the benefits.

People in this thread are acting like it's such a difficult combo to pull off or that the enemy has to play into defile when the warlock could just build a board state to follow up the defile combo the next turn.

Even without defile, the Warlock can Howlfiend + Treachery and then attack it with any minions on board. Remember that even if it's a non combo deck, this plus gnomeferatu will burn a lot of resources. Card advantage is pretty good against any deck. And if it's against aggro, a defile with a howlfiend will likely still make it harder for them to kill you. It's not like dirty rat where it can backfire. The only time it's countered is playing against a Quest Warlock? And I haven't seen any of those recently.
I've been on both ends of this combination. It is a strong combo but not insurmountable. I've even been victorious after being milled 6 cards including death knight with my lady in white deck. Card advantage is just card advantage and your opponent basically just used all his mana to clear the board, you still have enough high value threats left with most control decks.

What I miss in this conversation so far is that running this combo gimps your skull of the man'ari. You don't want this randomly summoned when you have bloodreaver Gul'dan in hand.
08/05/2018 11:10 PMPosted by Wardrum
Where do Hearthstone players get this idea that every single thing that their opponent can do requires counterplay in the form of ALWAYS being able to prevent it?

I can only imagine the vitrol some of you folks would spit if you played MtG and came up against a Blue deck.

To be fair the ability to discard an opponents entire hand can be insanely oppressive with no instant speed plays from mtg. Like if you discard any kind of midrange players hand odds are they auto lose the game at that point.

I'm not saying otk decks are fair or balanced but neither are mechanics that completely dumpster the mechanics of a card game.

Seriously guy do you want blue because stuff like this is how you get blue! I don't for one don't want blue anywhere near other card games. (Blue referring to mtg blue mana cards which are the least fun cards in mtg)
Welcome to Knights of the Frozen Throne.
08/06/2018 01:24 AMPosted by Zlumpy
08/05/2018 11:10 PMPosted by Wardrum
Where do Hearthstone players get this idea that every single thing that their opponent can do requires counterplay in the form of ALWAYS being able to prevent it?

I can only imagine the vitrol some of you folks would spit if you played MtG and came up against a Blue deck.

To be fair the ability to discard an opponents entire hand can be insanely oppressive with no instant speed plays from mtg. Like if you discard any kind of midrange players hand odds are they auto lose the game at that point.

I'm not saying otk decks are fair or balanced but neither are mechanics that completely dumpster the mechanics of a card game.

Seriously guy do you want blue because stuff like this is how you get blue! I don't for one don't want blue anywhere near other cars games. (Blue referring to mtg blue mana cards which are the least fun cards in mtg)


Yep. Defending stupid mechanics and combos that have no place in this game is the norm around here. Cam we just play the game the RIGHT way please? Thanks.
As others have said its pretty difficult to pull off.

If you care about winrate, you can only run one howl fiend, treachery combo

You will likely need second treachery for board clear at some point

Often you dont get the 3 cards together in time

If opponent is pressuring you, you might not be able to play it

Its already been nerfed in a way cause possesed villager rototated out

Even control locks that run better cards than the combo, arent in very good spot right know

Its more or less the opposite of braimdead , you need to plan ahead, be bery careful about using your ressources
(Do i need that defile right now or can i save it till turn 8)

I call people that call anything braindead they ONCE lost, too braindead
I think if people just looked at this as a combo deck instead they might see this combo is just about as fair as any other combo deck. The difference is you aren't necessarily dead once they have done their combo. You are in a disadvantaged position most likely, but the game isn't necessarily over depending on what is in your deck.

Also, you talk about how the combo generates card advantage. The Warlock has to basically burn three cards to potentially mill several of yours. If the Warlock doesn't have board you can avoid the combo simply by either playing around Defile (which you should be doing normally) or by having a full board so that the Howlfiend can't be sent to your side. If the Warlock has a decent board state, then they are trading their entire board most likely with the Defile itself to mill your hand. That's a lot of cards potentially invested and a lot of "ifs" in a combo that doesn't win you the game on the spot.

The deck itself isn't consistent enough as is to be viable. Most combo style decks are going to play in a way that may feel "unfair". This deck, while it may seem unfair, is not overpowered.
08/05/2018 11:56 PMPosted by Incognito
No you guys are overplaying the cost of the combo. Even milling 2-4 cards per combo is insanely broken. Let alone up to 12 (not including 2 more from gnome).

Cards are the quintessential most valuable aspect of a A CARD GAME ... being able to @%@@*@#! your opponents hand is broken op


Spending 3 or 4 cards to mill 0-6 cards (usually on the lower side if your opponent has any skill)? Yup, that really is insanely broken on average *eye roll*

The combo has been around for a year now, it sees virtually no play. Decks running it are weakened considerably by running 4 cards that are usually dead in hand (although running Doomsayer can partly mitigate that). And then, you might just mill low value trash.
Saying such a weak, easy to pay around and complex deck is braindead is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard on these forums. And that's saying something. What is an intelligent deck, in your opinion?

And Warlock is one of my least played classes, fwiw. I quite like the combo because it's challenging, different and one of the only half-counters to Combo decks in Standard. Yet the deck still loses to Combo more than it wins. It's. That. Weak.
Calling it op is just... so dumb.
08/05/2018 10:17 PMPosted by Wardrum
But it's SO. DANG. FUN!!

Seriously, folks keep begging for a way - ANY way - to shut down decks like Shudderwock. Throw Rin in and whatever Priest thinks he's gonna avoid fatigue is in for a very rude awakening.


Glinda + Gnomeferatu has been possible for a while now. That's 10 cards if I'm not mistaken assuming you get 5 off while running 2 copies.
08/06/2018 02:28 AMPosted by Mikey
...
To be fair the ability to discard an opponents entire hand can be insanely oppressive with no instant speed plays from mtg. Like if you discard any kind of midrange players hand odds are they auto lose the game at that point.

I'm not saying otk decks are fair or balanced but neither are mechanics that completely dumpster the mechanics of a card game.

Seriously guy do you want blue because stuff like this is how you get blue! I don't for one don't want blue anywhere near other cars games. (Blue referring to mtg blue mana cards which are the least fun cards in mtg)


Yep. Defending stupid mechanics and combos that have no place in this game is the norm around here. Cam we just play the game the RIGHT way please? Thanks.
I'm glad you find yourself to be the sole objective source for how all CCGs should be played. Make sure to let Blizzard and Wizards of the Coast know that they need to adjust their games to fit your standards.
08/06/2018 03:54 AMPosted by Jezq
Decks running it are weakened considerably by running 4 cards that are usually dead in hand (although running Doomsayer can partly mitigate that).


Actually the biggest weakness of the deck is that you can't play Skull because it might pull your Howlfiend before you're ready, and you run a very serious risk of milling yourself if you play against a Mage who counters your Treachery, and that risk gets compounded because now it's also in the pool to come back with Bloodreaver.

Don't get me wrong, it's freakin' hilarious when you get 3-4 cards out of the combo, but more of than not, you just end up dead without ever getting the chance.

Btw, if you want even funnier, play Keening Banshee - Treachery and then freeze her. It does cost you 3 cards from your deck, but done right, you can seriously mess with an opponent for a few turns via Glacial Shard and Frost Elemental.
Dude are you serious? I've been playing a Howlfiend deck with just over a positive win rate for about 8 months now because it became my last bastion of fun in this game and you want to take that away from me?
I play a variant of Even Warlock that has Gnomeferatus and Glinda in it. It doesn't happen often, but there are times when I can drop 5 Gnomeferatus in a row and mill away quite a lot of stuff. It's one of the funnest things any of my decks will do. It's high risk, high reward stuff that only works once every few games. And there's nothing wrong with that.
OP, wait till you learn about the tale of Warrior memery: Togwaggle + Explore Un'Goro into Skulking Geist after your opponent plays ransom. No board setting required, just get to 10 mana.
How is this thread only 9 hours old

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