Warlock able to mill 12 cards from your hand ...

Play Mode Discussion
08/06/2018 07:56 AMPosted by Flame
How is this thread only 9 hours old


Well, you see, when a mommy thread and a daddy thread love each other very much...
08/06/2018 07:22 AMPosted by Rozenkranc
OP, wait till you learn about the tale of Warrior memery: Togwaggle + Explore Un'Goro into Skulking Geist after your opponent plays ransom. No board setting required, just get to 10 mana.


Summoning Portal - Summoning Portal - Faceless - Togwaggle - Azalina for 10 mana is pretty fun, too! Add Hemet to make sure they're fatiguing immediately.

08/06/2018 06:31 AMPosted by Xavori


Actually the biggest weakness of the deck is that you can't play Skull because it might pull your Howlfiend before you're ready


I don't run Skull, ever. Cubelock can rot in hell :)
The combo has been around for a while now. These cards are far from new. I guess this was the first time running into that deck.
Even if its hard to pull off its still a bad time for opponent so much so that there is no hearthstone card that forces discard of cards in hand by itself on opponent. Treachery doomsayer is ok. Treachery howlfiend isnt. If this deck was a better deck the nerf calls would be thru roof. It shouldnt exist
08/05/2018 10:17 PMPosted by Wardrum
But it's SO. DANG. FUN!!

Seriously, folks keep begging for a way - ANY way - to shut down decks like Shudderwock. Throw Rin in and whatever Priest thinks he's gonna avoid fatigue is in for a very rude awakening.


I think this is my biggest problem with the mechanic. I love mill and discard, but the fact that Warlock is the ONLY viable option for this, through the Howlfiend combo, Rin, and Gnomeferatu, is bad. 3 ways to mill or discard, and they all go to the same class. Meanwhile, new cards keep homogenizing every other class mechanic, giving things that used to belong to a certain class or two to classes that were SUPPOSED to have a weakness in that.
08/06/2018 09:30 AMPosted by Knappco
08/05/2018 10:17 PMPosted by Wardrum
But it's SO. DANG. FUN!!

Seriously, folks keep begging for a way - ANY way - to shut down decks like Shudderwock. Throw Rin in and whatever Priest thinks he's gonna avoid fatigue is in for a very rude awakening.


I think this is my biggest problem with the mechanic. I love mill and discard, but the fact that Warlock is the ONLY viable option for this, through the Howlfiend combo, Rin, and Gnomeferatu, is bad. 3 ways to mill or discard, and they all go to the same class. Meanwhile, new cards keep homogenizing every other class mechanic, giving things that used to belong to a certain class or two to classes that were SUPPOSED to have a weakness in that.
If hand disruption was more widely available it would be a lot more difficult to keep in check. While I do enjoy that mechanic myself in CCGs, I can see why Team 5 would be hesitent to really make it a "thing" in Hearthstone. Folks rage over the smallest of things that they weren't given an opportunity to prevent. Give that mechanic widespread availability for other classes to utilize and you might actually see more outrage than Jades, Shudder, Cube and Ice Block could generate combined.

Despite how often I laugh at complainers, there IS a threshold at which the tradeoff of fun for player ire reaches a point of being legitimately disfavorable for Blizzard. They've kinda hinted at that before when discussing hand disruption in interviews. The little but we have through Warlock is a nod to those of us who enjoy messign with our opponent, but they think it would be overall too unfun to just start directly putting a bunch of hand discard etc. in the game outright. Even our Howlfiend play requires jumping through a few hoops and keeping away from using certain good class cards.
08/05/2018 10:17 PMPosted by Wardrum
But it's SO. DANG. FUN!!

Seriously, folks keep begging for a way - ANY way - to shut down decks like Shudderwock. Throw Rin in and whatever Priest thinks he's gonna avoid fatigue is in for a very rude awakening.


Or Mecha’thun.

I SPEAK FOR THE MEMES
08/06/2018 10:01 AMPosted by Mand
08/05/2018 10:17 PMPosted by Wardrum
But it's SO. DANG. FUN!!

Seriously, folks keep begging for a way - ANY way - to shut down decks like Shudderwock. Throw Rin in and whatever Priest thinks he's gonna avoid fatigue is in for a very rude awakening.


Or Mecha’thun.

I SPEAK FOR THE MEMES
Oh that's definitely gonna happen. I'll happily recraft a copy of Bloodbloom for it.
So lets stop with the fallacy:

1) The combo is not hard to pull off.

(even if it was)

2) The ability to mill your opponents CURRENT hand (regardless of condition, combo or cost), SHOULD NEVER EXIST.

Even if the deck had 0.00000001% win rate it still would not be justified as it just poor game design for a >>CARD<< game.

If in WoW my character had a 0.0001% chance to instantly kill everyone in the opposing faction city would it be balanced just cause it has such a low chance to happen?

The answer is unequivocally >>NO<< ... why ?? BECASUE ITS NOT BALANCED............................

Not sure whats so hard to understand here. Despite being anecdotal, it seems as though a lot of the players trying to advocate that this game play is some how justified must be playing the deck themselves (in some form) and thus are extremely biased.

Either way though... this abomination of a combo should never exist.
08/06/2018 11:44 AMPosted by Incognito
2) The ability to mill your opponents CURRENT hand (regardless of condition, combo or cost), SHOULD NEVER EXIST.

Even if the deck had 0.00000001% win rate it still would not be justified as it just poor game design for a >>CARD<< game.

If in WoW my character had a 0.0001% chance to instantly kill everyone in the opposing faction city would it be balanced just cause it has such a low chance to happen?

The answer is unequivocally >>NO<< ... why ?? BECASUE ITS NOT BALANCED............................

Not sure whats so hard to understand here. Despite being anecdotal, it seems as though a lot of the players trying to advocate that this game play is some how justified must be playing the deck themselves (in some form) and thus are extremely biased.

Either way though... this abomination of a combo should never exist.
Your WoW example is terrible. That mechanic would be objectionable because it would be incredibly swingy, and not dependent on anything either player did. That's not what most want from a competitive game, or any game, for that matter.

This is in stark contrast to the Hearthstone discard combo, which requires very specific setup, is deliberately planned out, and has plenty of counterplay. (See my post on page 1 for a discussion of what "counterplay" means.)

You keep saying "the mechanic shouldn't exist", but you have provided zero evidence or rhetoric to demonstrate that, except for the fact that you yourself don't like it.

There are combos that instantly win the game; why is it so bad that there is a potential setup for a combo that discards some cards? Seriously, what is your metric for determining that?

It can't possibly be that it's "overpowered", because there is a very standard metric for measuring how powerful a deck/mechanic is: win rate. In fact, for a mechanic that requires other pieces to support it, "deck win rate" is the only good metric to use.

Obviously, you can get more specific, like win rate against certain archetypes, or include the play rate as well, but the general idea still stands: there are perfectly good metrics to evaluate a deck's power level, and your feelings are not included in that list.
1) The combo is not hard to pull off.


Yes, it is.

There. I've invalidated your unsupported opinion by stating the opposite opinion. Now is your chance to supply an argument rather than just stating unsupported opinions.

Others in this thread have proven the difficulty of making this whole combo work. The player has to get out the Howlfiend, then Treachery it into the opponent's board, and then cast a Defile at a time while the board ALSO supports the possibility of doing a drawn-out Defile pinging on the Howlfiend. It's not easy to put all that together while at the same time guaranteeing the opponent has a hand worth doing it to (aggro & tempo decks wouldn't care for example). Those are the facts that show that it is both (A) difficult to pull off and (B) no guarantee of value even if you do pull the combo.

Please make an argument that provides actual evidence to the contrary.
Your WoW example is terrible. That mechanic would be objectionable because it would be incredibly swingy, and not dependent on anything either player did. That's not what most want from a competitive game, or any game, for that matter.

This is in stark contrast to the Hearthstone discard combo, which requires very specific setup, is deliberately planned out, and has plenty of counterplay. (See my post on page 1 for a discussion of what "counterplay" means.)

You keep saying "the mechanic shouldn't exist", but you have provided zero evidence or rhetoric to demonstrate that, except for the fact that you yourself don't like it.

There are combos that instantly win the game; why is it so bad that there is a potential setup for a combo that discards some cards? Seriously, what is your metric for determining that?

It can't possibly be that it's "overpowered", because there is a very standard metric for measuring how powerful a deck/mechanic is: win rate. In fact, for a mechanic that requires other pieces to support it, "deck win rate" is the only good metric to use.

Obviously, you can get more specific, like win rate against certain archetypes, or include the play rate as well, but the general idea still stands: there are perfectly good metrics to evaluate a deck's power level, and your feelings are not included in that list.

The difference is that those combo's that instantly win you the game do not involve the debilitating experience of you obliterating your opponents most important resource of a CARD game.. AKA THE ACTUAL CARDS..

As an example, people complain about shutterwalk because it is an insta win combo. I have no issue with it because it is a combo that (also took planning, had a cost etc etc).

There difference is I still get to play the game agaisnt a shutterwalk shaman. Having a combo that destroys your entire hand basically is bad game design because at that point I am no longer playing the game. I am staring at my screen waiting to see what my next useless top deck is going to be.

At this point the game is technically not done, so I have decide do I want to continue or just concede. This is far more problematic, I would much rather face an instant win combo that happens in the latest part of the game vs dealing with the nonsensical nature of having my entire hand milled mid way through the game.

If you can't understand this distinction.. then that is on you (because both scenarios are LARGELY DIFFERENT, in terms of player experience).

Not the best at articulating things... but in my head what I am saying makes perfect sense... lol
08/06/2018 11:44 AMPosted by Incognito
So lets stop with the fallacy:

1) The combo is not hard to pull off.

(even if it was)

2) The ability to mill your opponents CURRENT hand (regardless of condition, combo or cost), SHOULD NEVER EXIST.

Even if the deck had 0.00000001% win rate it still would not be justified as it just poor game design for a >>CARD<< game.

If in WoW my character had a 0.0001% chance to instantly kill everyone in the opposing faction city would it be balanced just cause it has such a low chance to happen?

The answer is unequivocally >>NO<< ... why ?? BECASUE ITS NOT BALANCED............................

Not sure whats so hard to understand here. Despite being anecdotal, it seems as though a lot of the players trying to advocate that this game play is some how justified must be playing the deck themselves (in some form) and thus are extremely biased.

Either way though... this abomination of a combo should never exist.
This is an example of you thinking entirely too highly of your own opinion.

Hand disruption exists in CCGs. Accept that.
08/05/2018 10:09 PMPosted by Incognito
So this is maybe the most overpowered thing I have ever seen in the game EVER.

With the new card that allows warlocks to give you one of their cards they can give you their 3-6 card that mills a card from your hand every time it takes damage then combine it with defile to mill up to a potential 6 cards from your hand. They can do this twice !!!

This needs to be fixed ASAP it’s the most brain dead thing the game has ever seen. In what world is it ok to give a class the potential to mill up to 12 cards from your hand .... there is absolutely no counter play to this and it’s the most broken, overpowered thing conceivable!!!!

Fix this now ...


This isn't overpowered or broken. Basically, it is Exodia Mage but with warlocks and discard.

I agree with you that removing my cards really isn't fair. I think that if you are going in the hand disruption direction, there should be something for everyone, or nothing for everyone.

The "hand disruptor/burgler" has always been Rogue. Now, Priest can burgle like Valeera, and Warlock can mill like Valeera before Oracle HoF.

However, discard has always been a theme with warlock. Discardlock, Handlock, Demonlock, Zoolock - some of these decks require specific minions, so hand disruption, I think, is appropiate for Warlock.

Still, I secretly fear if this becomes a theme of Warlock, it will gain ungodly support and become a nuisance if not kept in check.

All we can do is wait and see...
Yes, it is.

There. I've invalidated your unsupported opinion by stating the opposite opinion.


I'll bite:

1) You disagreeing with me doesn't invalidate anything you just provided your own "unsupported opinion" .. nice try .... also your selective reading is impressive considering right under that I wrote:

(even if it was)

2) The ability to mill your opponents CURRENT hand (regardless of condition, combo or cost), SHOULD NEVER EXIST.


You are missing the underlying point:

My stance is that its poor game design, due to the experience the player faces on the receiving end which is distinct, debilitating and not in line with other insta win combo experiences.

The winrate, playrate, ease of execution are all irrelevant. The combo design at its core is fundamentally flawed. If you can't understand why having the ability to mill your opponents ENTIRE CURRENT HAND basically defecating on your opponents ability to actually play the game then we have largely differing view points of what is good game design for a card game. This combo can be pulled off in the MIDDLE of the game and is not technically an instant win condition which you guys are using as a comparison. Those instant win combos that take place at the FINAL turns of a game are fine because its a finality i.e., your opponent successful pulled of their win condition and the game ends. A huge distinction being that you also got to enjoy and play the game back up to that point.

Milling your entire opponents hand turn 6/7 is completely distinct and should never exist in any shape or form, due to it being, at its core BAD GAME DESIGN. At that point the game should simply end because the notion of top decking as your opponent has cards, board state and destroyed your hand is laughable.
This is an example of you thinking entirely too highly of your own opinion.

Hand disruption exists in CCGs. Accept that.


Except the game has never in any iteration or any other deck seen a combo that can remove CARDS FROM YOUR OPPONENTS CURRENT HAND.

Which is far different then forcing your opponent to overdraw and mill (which is far less punishing).

Mill decks that cause overdrawing/fatigue are acceptable because they are a playstyle/strategy. Your opponent is still given the opportunity to fight back and play the game.

Simply destroying your opponent CURRENT hand is a completely different beast. If you guys can't see this ... then I don't really know what to say because it is basically common sense.
08/06/2018 12:42 PMPosted by Incognito
This is an example of you thinking entirely too highly of your own opinion.

Hand disruption exists in CCGs. Accept that.


Except the game has never in any iteration or any other deck seen a combo that can remove CARDS FROM YOUR OPPONENTS CURRENT HAND.

Which is far different then forcing your opponent to overdraw and mill (which is far less punishing).

Mill decks that cause overdrawing/fatigue are acceptable because they are a playstyle/strategy. Your opponent is still given the opportunity to fight back and play the game.

Simply destroying your opponent CURRENT had is a completely different beast. If you guys can't see this ... then I don't really know what to say because it is basically common sense.
Shall we start listing all of the other things that didn't exist in Classic that were introduced over time?

They've already gone on record to say that hand disruption will be niche at best and not a major feature. You're free to dislike it for whatever reasons you want, but those reasons amount to personal preference since you keep dismissing all quantifiable factors like winrate, playrate and ease of execution. What YOU think is okay is no more important than what someone else thinks is okay, especially regarding abilities that are readily available in other CCGs.

The sooner you stop using your personal preferences alone as an objective measuring stick for the actions of others, the sooner you'll stop getting angry at so many things.
Shall we start listing all of the other things that didn't exist in Classic that were introduced over time?

They've already gone on record to say that hand disruption will be niche at best and not a major feature. You're free to dislike it for whatever reasons you want, but those reasons amount to personal preference since you keep dismissing all quantifiable factors like winrate, playrate and ease of execution. What YOU think is okay is no more important than what someone else thinks is okay, especially regarding abilities that are readily available in other CCGs.

The sooner you stop using your personal preferences alone as an objective measuring stick for the actions of others, the sooner you'll stop getting angry at so many things.


Its not that I am dismissing "quantifiable factors" (aka winrate, playrate, ease of execution etc). I am just saying that using those as counter arguments is irrelevant because my underlying point is that hand disruption by discarding cards from your opponents current hand is fundamentally against the foundation of the mechanics of a card game. The negative player experience of this mechanic far outweights any notion of winrate, playrate, or ease of execution. Which is why I say its irrelevant.

You also are just disagreeing me with your own personal preference trying to justify this mechanic due to the ONE AND ONLY DECK AND CLASS, that can pull this off being an off meta deck that doesn't have an insanely high win rate or play rate. So this somehow justifies the imbalance?? I am sorry to tell you that you are distinctly WRONG this has nothing to do with personal preference.

There is a reason the game has never seen this mechanic of being able to remove cards from your opponents hand... why??? Because its broken AF. If this mechanic was more prevalent, in the meta with multiple classes/decks being able to do it then everyone would be screaming about it, because at its core its bad design.

Just cause its hidden and not really felt currently (i.e. low playrate/winrate etc) doesn't justify the mechanic itself being balanced. You have to be pretty dense to think this using the current and only singular deck/class sample size as the defining factor.

Its ok to actually use your brain and make an assessment on the fundamental nature of the mechanic and make a determination of the validity and balance of the underlying game design of said mechanic.

I also would like to stress that:

Hand disruption (aka milling cards due to forced over draw) is fine. In fact I used to play many rogue mill decks variants and they are in fact super fun to play. They also are far less punishing and annoying to play against.

HOWEVER:

Hand disruption in terms of discarding cards from your opponents current hand, is unacceptable and should never exist.

You can say this is just my personal preference, however to me its just common sense.
08/06/2018 11:44 AMPosted by Incognito
So lets stop with the fallacy:

1) The combo is not hard to pull off.


It requires three specific cards in order to be executed in the first place, and further requires an ideal boardstate and an opponent with 6+ cards in hand in order to be ideal. It isn't impossible/highly improbable like Mech'Thun, Paladin DK, etc, but it certainly isn't easy and lands itself squarely within "meme" territory.

08/06/2018 11:44 AMPosted by Incognito

(even if it was)

2) The ability to mill your opponents CURRENT hand (regardless of condition, combo or cost), SHOULD NEVER EXIST.

Even if the deck had 0.00000001% win rate it still would not be justified as it just poor game design for a >>CARD<< game.


You... DO realise that Discard and Mill are popular/viable mechanics in other card games, right? MtG in particular has entire formats where removal from the hand is a vital part of multiple decks' strategies, and Mill sees play in a number of different formats (Mtg is actually the game from which the term "Mill" originated in the first place). To claim that Discard (even the ability to discard ones entire hand) has no place in a card game is entirely false, or at least requires more backup than what you've provided.

08/06/2018 11:44 AMPosted by Incognito

If in WoW my character had a 0.0001% chance to instantly kill everyone in the opposing faction city would it be balanced just cause it has such a low chance to happen?

The answer is unequivocally >>NO<< ... why ?? BECASUE ITS NOT BALANCED............................


Your analogy is the only thing imbalanced here:

- You're only playing against one other person in Hearthstone, not an entire faction

- If you had a 0.0001% chance to instantly kill someone in 1v1 combat in exchange for a build that generally does poorly otherwise, it would be balanced. 0.0001% is, after all, literally one in a million. Meme victories like this are what make games like these fun for a LOT of people.

-You keep claiming that this shouldn't exist because it isn't "balanced", but have yet to bring up exactly why it's imbalanced or what "balanced" even means to you. The combo requires 3 cards and 8 mana to activate as well as other investment in the way of board preparation (which requires more mana and cards). In exchange, the combo /MIGHT/ discard 6 cards from the opponents hand, and unless against a greedy control/combo deck will likely discard less. This entire interaction is far from unbalanced compared to cards and decks that have received nerfs in the past.
08/06/2018 11:44 AMPosted by Incognito

Not sure whats so hard to understand here. Despite being anecdotal, it seems as though a lot of the players trying to advocate that this game play is some how justified must be playing the deck themselves (in some form) and thus are extremely biased.

Either way though... this abomination of a combo should never exist.


That's a brooaaaaaad claim, that people here must be playing the deck in order to defend it. I'd might as well claim that you must be against it because the combo practically hard-counters Shudderwock, and you as a result MUST be a Shudderwock player (and by extension, extremely biased). I'm personally defending it because it's a unique deck that is neither overpowered, nor oppressive, nor pushing any decks or archetypes out of the meta. Heck, it's even FUN to lose to the deck sometimes because the combo requires preparation and smart moves from my opponent. If they genuinely out-played me, then good for them.

08/06/2018 11:44 AMPosted by Incognito

Either way though... this abomination of a combo should never exist.


I (as well as everyone else here, it seems), would beg to differ.

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