Warlock able to mill 12 cards from your hand ...

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08/06/2018 01:03 PMPosted by Incognito
point is that hand disruption by discarding cards from your opponents current hand is fundamentally against the foundation of the mechanics of a card game.
Except it isn't, as evidenced by its use in many other card games as well.

Every time you say the above-quoted phrase - every time you think it - you're wrong.

Is it a frustrating mechanic for some? Yeah, it definitely can be, but so can a great many other things. That's why Team 5 in particular has chosen to severely limit it in Hearthstone. Does it go entirely against the foundation of the genre as a whole? No. See above if you continue to believe that.

I really don't know what else to tell you at this point, man.
08/06/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Incognito
The difference is that those combo's that instantly win you the game do not involve the debilitating experience of you obliterating your opponents most important resource of a CARD game.. AKA THE ACTUAL CARDS..

As an example, people complain about shutterwalk because it is an insta win combo. I have no issue with it because it is a combo that (also took planning, had a cost etc etc).

There difference is I still get to play the game agaisnt a shutterwalk shaman. Having a combo that destroys your entire hand basically is bad game design because at that point I am no longer playing the game. I am staring at my screen waiting to see what my next useless top deck is going to be.

At this point the game is technically not done, so I have decide do I want to continue or just concede. This is far more problematic, I would much rather face an instant win combo that happens in the latest part of the game vs dealing with the nonsensical nature of having my entire hand milled mid way through the game.
You can make exactly these same statements to refer to every traditional control deck Hearthstone has ever had.

"Big-Spell Mage just wiped out all my minions, for the third time, and I have nothing left to play. I have to wait to see what I top-deck, and hope it sticks. At this point I am barely playing the game anymore."

There is no functional difference here. At this point, the control deck has executed their plan of depriving you of resources, and your loss is inevitable. You can either wait a long time for it to actually take place, or concede. It's up to you, but most players concede when the game is clearly over, in most CCG's.

If you want to get rid of that aspect of play, then you aren't asking for discard to be eliminated; you are asking for the elimination of control as an archetype. And that just means less deck diversity.
So let's simplify this further:

The ability to discard cards from your opponents hands should never exist in HEARTHSTONE:

1) Because the distinct negative player experience of being on the receiving end of a mechanic that destroys the most important resource in a card game... i.e., the actual cards is not warranted. It far outweighs any notion of current playrate/winrate/ease of execution for the current one and only deck/class that can pull this off.

2) There is a reason this mechanic is not more widespread because it is such a debilitating experience to be on the receiving end. If it was more widespread, in the current meta with multiple decks/classes being able to pull it off the game would basically die. That is how bad this mechanic is.

I also find it laughable that all the people that brought up winrate/play rate for the current single deck/class that has this mechanic. Is your stance that if the winrate/playrate of the deck suddenly sky rocketed and became dominant in the meta then somehow then the mechanic would be overpowered?

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT.. it has to do with the fact that it creates an extremely toxic and negative player experience that is not warranted in any scenario.

3) Because it creates a game-play setting where your opponent can no longer truly react and actually realistically play the game (having an empty hand and relying on top decks is no longer you playing the game or having the ability to do any sort of counter play or strategy).

4) Hand disruption in terms of milling cards due to over draw (or even simply milling cards with a card like gnomerfartu) is fine. You can still work with your existing hand to try and make plays and potentially still have cards in your deck to make further plays with.

Hand disruption that directly forces your opponent to mill their CURRENT hand is not fine due to the above.
Discarding was one of the worst things in MTG as well but they had to have it as there were way too many ways to instantly win and these combos you dint wait till later turns to pull it off. Hearthstone has never really supported discarding cards on opponent and rightfully so as its one of the worst feeling to just have opponent discard your cards in hand. Its needed to stop otks on early turns and hearthstone doesn't have that hence why howlfiend and treachery is the only way to do it.
Discarding was one of the worst things in MTG as well but they had to have it as there were way to many ways to instantly win and these combos you dint wait till later turns to pull it off.


I have never played MTG but it make sense that it would be horrible even in MTG. The ability to discard your opponents current hand is bad game design for ANY card game.

I would love to pick the brain of the developer who implemented this into hearthstone and logically reason with him to see how any rational sane person could implement something so toxic into their game.

People are just so myopic that they fail to realize that just because something currently isn't meta, the fact that there is only one class/deck that can pull this off , that some how that justifies the mechanic being balanced.

The mechanic is imbalanced, toxic and not fun to play with regardless. All you guys are proving is that we should be thankful that its not more widespread in the game.

I guarantee that most of the people that are advocating that this treachery combo being fine would be singing a different tune if every class had a deck with a discard combo and if it became prevalent in the current meta
08/06/2018 01:18 PMPosted by Incognito
So let's simplify this further:

The ability to discard cards from your opponents hands should never exist in HEARTHSTONE:

1) Because the distinct negative player experience of being on the receiving end of a mechanic that destroys the most important resource in a card game... i.e., the actual cards is not warranted. It far outweighs any notion of current playrate/winrate/ease of execution for the current one and only deck/class that can pull this off.

2) There is a reason this mechanic is not more widespread because it is such a debilitating experience to be on the receiving end. If it was more widespread, in the current meta with multiple decks/classes being able to pull it off the game would basically die. That is how bad this mechanic is.

I also find it laughable that all the people that brought up winrate/play rate for the current single deck/class that has this mechanic. Is your stance that if the winrate/playrate of the deck suddenly sky rocketed and became dominant in the meta then somehow then the mechanic would be overpowered?

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT.. it has to do with the fact that it creates an extremely toxic and negative player experience that is not warranted in any scenario.

3) Because it creates a game-play setting where your opponent can no longer truly react and actually realistically play the game (having an empty hand and relying on top decks is no longer you playing the game or having the ability to do any sort of counter play or strategy).

4) Hand disruption in terms of milling cards due to over draw (or even simply milling cards with a card like gnomerfartu) is fine. You can still work with your existing hand to try and make plays and potentially still have cards in your deck to make further plays with.

Hand disruption that directly forces your opponent to mill their CURRENT hand is not fine due to the above.
Fingers firmly planted in your ears, I see.

The deck will never spiral out of control because any decent-drawing tempo deck absolutely obliterates it.

Your opinion on what is or is not warranted is simply wrong.

I'm aware though that you won't listen to this and will continue to repeat the same thing over and over despite its fallacious nature.

Have fun with that and have a good day, I'm out.
You can make exactly these same statements to refer to every traditional control deck Hearthstone has ever had.

"Big-Spell Mage just wiped out all my minions, for the third time, and I have nothing left to play. I have to wait to see what I top-deck, and hope it sticks. At this point I am barely playing the game anymore."

There is no functional difference here. At this point, the control deck has executed their plan of depriving you of resources, and your loss is inevitable. You can either wait a long time for it to actually take place, or concede. It's up to you, but most players concede when the game is clearly over, in most CCG's.

If you want to get rid of that aspect of play, then you aren't asking for discard to be eliminated; you are asking for the elimination of control as an archetype. And that just means less deck diversity.


What how can you even write that with a straight face?

In what world is a control deck that uses removal to clear board state on minions THAT YOU ACTUALLY PLAYED FROM YOUR HAND...

The same thing as having your opponent completely REMOVE CARDS FROM YOUR HAND.??????????....

So first of all said control deck isn't forcing me to discard my spells that may be in hand, my Dk that may be in hand, my card draw that may be in hand, my future big threats that may be in hand that I am saving for later turns (or simply can't play yet cause they aren't on curve yet)...

I can't even fathom that you would remotely think that the two comparisons you made are in the slightest functionally the same......

When you play a control deck you realistically should be able to make that determination very early on in the game so you can make conscious strategic choices on how you are going to play your minions agaisnt a deck that has multiple options for board removal (i.e., not going too wide etc, trying to bait out their removal etc...).

Past that I am not even going to bother trying to further rationalize. If you in any way actually think that an opponents ability to potentially remove your entire hand, is the same as board clear on minions you played (that potentially already traded or caused damage) that is quite shocking to me.

Simply removing cards from your hand that will never see any play (that can also include NON MINIONS) is no way remotely the same as a control deck using removal on minions you chose to play ...all I can really say to that is:

???????????????????????????????????????????????

If you are playing a control deck and are simply playing all your minions at once and dumping all your minions in hand onto the board that is just you consciously playing poorly. There also is a huge distinction that my hand realistically is not merely consisting of minions and being able to force me to discard staple cards that may be in hand that I am waiting to play on curve is a completely different beast.
08/06/2018 01:28 PMPosted by Incognito
Discarding was one of the worst things in MTG as well but they had to have it as there were way to many ways to instantly win and these combos you dint wait till later turns to pull it off.


I have never played MTG but it make sense that it would be horrible even in MTG. The ability to discard your opponents current hand is bad game design for ANY card game.


As I mentioned earlier, Discard has been a mainstay mechanic in MtG literally since it was first conceived as a game. It isn't bad design. If it were, then WotC would have stopped printing Discard-related cards long ago, rather than continuing it for 25 years.

08/06/2018 01:34 PMPosted by Incognito
You can make exactly these same statements to refer to every traditional control deck Hearthstone has ever had.

"Big-Spell Mage just wiped out all my minions, for the third time, and I have nothing left to play. I have to wait to see what I top-deck, and hope it sticks. At this point I am barely playing the game anymore."

There is no functional difference here. At this point, the control deck has executed their plan of depriving you of resources, and your loss is inevitable. You can either wait a long time for it to actually take place, or concede. It's up to you, but most players concede when the game is clearly over, in most CCG's.

If you want to get rid of that aspect of play, then you aren't asking for discard to be eliminated; you are asking for the elimination of control as an archetype. And that just means less deck diversity.


What how can you even write that with a straight face?

In what world is a control deck that uses removal to clear board state on minions THAT YOU ACTUALLY PLAYED FROM YOUR HAND...

The same thing as having your opponent completely REMOVE CARDS FROM YOUR HAND.??????????....


I agree. Board clearing is worse because it also deprives you of the mana you spent to cast those creatures. At least if they discard the cards you would have cast, you have the alternative of playing something else.

... Of course I was being a bit sarcastic, but you get the gist. A 3-card, semi-convoluted combo is not inherently worse than simply Flamestriking 7 minions that the opponent spent their time, effort, and CARDS to play.

Sure, The 3-card Discard combo can get rid of Spells, DKs, etc, but the game lacks interaction for the former outside of Counterspell and for the latter altogether. Not to mention that the 3-card Discard combo, as I mentioned earlier, requires setup, assembly, and dare I say even a bit of luck in order to pull off. Cards like Flamestrike just require you to get to Turn 7, click, and drag.
I'm sorry but you are absolutely insane if you believe pulling off a 12 mill combo with Howlfiend is easy. Have you played against the meta?
You disagreeing with me doesn't invalidate anything you just provided your own "unsupported opinion"


My opinion opposes yours. Therefore your opinion no longer has any validity because mine counters it. The only way either party can break that dynamic is to supply a valid argument which gives their opinion more independent weight.

So - we arrive again at my initial point. Please supply an argument to support your opinion. So far you have routinely failed to present any supporting arguments to independently weight your opinions. Restating your opinions with ever-increasing petulance is not an argument. Bring forth your strong reasoning. If you cannot do this, then my opinion invalidates your opinion and your position has no support beyond your own vociferousness.
As a person who has tried so hard to get Howlfiend to work I can safely say that the combo requires soo much setup way more than any other so called combo.

If you are stupid enough to leave the board full of 1,2,3,4,5 HP minions then you deserve to be punished by this combo.

Also the discard from your opponents hand is the ONLY way to beat some decks like Hadronox, Shudderwock and various others who simply horde their key cards since turn 1 with no fear of discard because if they draw enough tools to stall the game out whilst hoarding these cards then they become unbeatable or extremely hard to outvalue in the end game.
08/06/2018 01:34 PMPosted by Incognito
What how can you even write that with a straight face?

In what world is a control deck that uses removal to clear board state on minions THAT YOU ACTUALLY PLAYED FROM YOUR HAND...

The same thing as having your opponent completely REMOVE CARDS FROM YOUR HAND.??????????....

So first of all said control deck isn't forcing me to discard my spells that may be in hand, my Dk that may be in hand, my card draw that may be in hand, my future big threats that may be in hand that I am saving for later turns (or simply can't play yet cause they aren't on curve yet)...

I can't even fathom that you would remotely think that the two comparisons you made are in the slightest functionally the same......
I never said they were exactly the same thing. I was responding to the one argument you wrote that gave any reason why the discard mechanic might be bad for the game. To paraphrase, "they are taking away your resources, and making it so that you can no longer play the game, and that feels bad".

I was pointing out how you can use exactly the same rhetoric to complain about every traditional control deck ever. They remove your resources (minions in this case), so that you can no longer play the game, and now have to either wait for defeat, or just concede.

In terms of the end product, this is identical to the discard example, except it works better on certain strategies than others.

So either the removal of resources ("taking away your ability to play the game") is bad, and thus all traditional control decks are bad, OR, you just don't like a control strategy that works against the deck that YOU play. But I don't agree with either of those arguments. And you have supplied nothing else.
08/05/2018 11:19 PMPosted by Incognito
Tell me what other deck has the potential insane power equivalent to milling up to 12 cards from your OPPONENTS HAND.

It’s one thing for decks to have insanely strong gimmicks that are hard to pull off without really good rng ... milling your opponents hand IN A CARD GAME ...is not acceptable ever under any circumstance regardless the cost.


At this point I think you are just a troll with your constantly referencing the perfect optimal 12 card mill thing. Do you have any idea how unlikely it is for that to happen? If you actually got milled 12 from a howl fiend then congrats to your opponent because he just got stomped 10 games before he faced you trying to pull off the miracle. You sound like a shady sales person with your “up to” statements.

Guess what, I can dollmaster Dorian out a malygos on my rogue, faceless manipulator it and then use 4 sinister strikes I happened to pull from mimic pod. Bam easy OP OTK right?

No. There’s is plenty of super strong combos that are incredibly rare to pull off and if someone wants to lose 15 games in a row trying to get it to happen then let them.
On one note, the Combo is incredibly easy to pull off.
The Very Archtype of any Lock deck builds off it.
That actual power of the combo is that your don't HAVE to use it
But you have the set up for it 90% of the time provided you draw those 3 cards.

On another note, this is another reason we need mechanics that'll RETURN cards to their original side.
I went up against a Warlock that got the full 6 from their Howlfiend while I was playing a Meme Tess Rogue. The Warlock Died the turn after because they were doing nothing because of all the garbage in their deck needed to do the combo. Cute combos are not consistent and don't really work.
08/05/2018 11:10 PMPosted by Wardrum
Where do Hearthstone players get this idea that every single thing that their opponent can do requires counterplay in the form of ALWAYS being able to prevent it?

I can only imagine the vitrol some of you folks would spit if you played MtG and came up against a Blue deck.


Glad someone said it!
In a game with multiple OtK combos that are easier to pull off, complaining about this is ludicrous.

The combo is difficult to pull off and partially or completely wipes your own board, meaning you have to build up your win condition again.

And it is super fun to corrupt rez pools with this thing in priest and DK Guldan matchups. Shame it isn't a beast.
08/05/2018 10:09 PMPosted by Incognito
So this is maybe the most overpowered thing I have ever seen in the game EVER.


Ever? EVER? EVER?

With the new card that allows warlocks to give you one of their cards they can give you their 3-6 card that mills a card from your hand every time it takes damage then combine it with defile to mill up to a potential 6 cards from your hand. They can do this twice !!!


Oh, goodness. They can do it far more than twice if they're clever.

This needs to be fixed ASAP it’s the most brain dead thing the game has ever seen. In what world is it ok to give a class the potential to mill up to 12 cards from your hand .... there is absolutely no counter play to this and it’s the most broken, overpowered thing conceivable!!!!


You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Fix this now ...


Yep. Let's put Boomsday on hold. THIS needs fixing. If we don't do something right now (NOW!) this deck could get so powerful that it eventually might be confused with a tier 4 deck.
It doesn't come close to always working even when you combo it decent. Just played against a BSM and got to discard 5/7 cards in their hand. Except it missed FLJ so I lost in the endgame.
08/06/2018 01:18 PMPosted by Incognito

I also find it laughable that all the people that brought up winrate/play rate for the current single deck/class that has this mechanic. Is your stance that if the winrate/playrate of the deck suddenly sky rocketed and became dominant in the meta then somehow then the mechanic would be overpowered?

[/quote]

Um... Yes?

To echo Thrull's reference above - I don't think 'overpowered' means what you think it means.

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