Kingsbane Rogue should be changed

Play Mode Discussion
The weapon Kingsbane for Rogue should be changed. Once it's been played there's literally no card in the entire game that can destroy it without your opponent being able to return it to their hand.
Deathrattles can normally be countered by cards with silence or priest control cards, but this is a weapon which returns to your opponents deck and there is no card in the game that can prevent it from happening.

Either cards have to be made to be able to counter that card or the card should be amended, so it's possible to counter it
First, there's gnomeferatu, second, kingsbane is good as it is. It's a very difficult deck to play, and even more difficult to master; but it rewards good plays and thinking ahead, which is exactly what hearthstone needs. Also, it's not that common. If you lost a single game against kingsbane, you can use your salt on your steak.
08/16/2018 03:28 AMPosted by Macro
First, there's gnomeferatu, second, kingsbane is good as it is. It's a very difficult deck to play, and even more difficult to master; but it rewards good plays and thinking ahead, which is exactly what hearthstone needs. Also, it's not that common. If you lost a single game against kingsbane, you can use your salt on your steak.


Gnomeferatu is a class card, so, there's 8 classes that can't use it. Kingsbane need some changes, specially it's ability to go below zero HP and still heal . If the rogue "kills" himself attacking some big taunt minion, this should end the game, and not still allow the 'steal life' to process.
This weapon can anti-Fatigue too. How can you make weapon that can gain 10 attack and life steal.
A rogue can only hit one target at a time go wide on the board that's how you beat kingsbane.
Kingsbane op! So op that it is used less than any other rogue deck at high ranks! They made an agreement to not abuse it too much!
Otk decks beet it
08/16/2018 06:02 AMPosted by NightThief
Otk decks beet it

And aggro decks destroy it, decks that can go wide beat it. Even if you do nothing for 10 turns that deck can basically lose to itself.
08/16/2018 01:42 AMPosted by Tooldoktor
Either cards have to be made to be able to counter that card or the card should be amended, so it's possible to counter it
"Counterplay" does not have to mean playing one card that completely negates an entire card/strategy. That is actually the dumbest, least imaginative form of counterplay, and not something I like having in the games that I enjoy. I want "counterplay" to be nuanced, and depend on the matchup and board state.

A single card that negates an entire deck is not "good counterplay". It takes absolutely no thought to use properly.

In the current state, there is plenty of actual counterplay. You can build up a board before the Rogue really gets their weapon going. You can go wide so they can't kill everything at once. (You have to gauge how much to play into Vanish or Blade Flurry here, which depends on cards in hand, life totals, how late into the game it is. Again: nuance.)

You can destroy their weapon, as well. Yes, they eventually get it back, but they only have 2 tutor effects, and if you're applying any sort of pressure at all, they should have at least some trouble fishing for it while defending themselves.

You can play Divine Shield minions. If they can't ping them first, then they gain zero life from the first hit, and just take damage instead.

If your game plan is so rigid that you absolutely cannot play dynamically to try to defeat a deck with a better late game than yours, then that is a problem with your deck design, not the actual design of the game or that one card. Some decks have glaring exploitable weaknesses. You can certainly play them anyway, but you shouldn't complain to the forums when you inevitably run into a deck that can exploit yours.
Well, outside of warlock, there are a couple of ways to "counter" kingsbane rogue. It's not easy, but if a mage can get FL Jaina online, it's possible to freeze the rogue permanently, winning the game. Shudderwock shaman's running glacial shards can do the same thing as well.

That being said, I get your frustration. If Kingsbane ever becomes a major part of the meta, I know that I personally will have a lot less fun playing Hearthstone. And I do think that Blizzard needs to keep an eye on Wild Kingsbane decks.
Unless you're a pro player, most people honestly can't play this deck anymore in this meta. I know you probably just watched RDU stream his 10-0 victories in Legend or something crazy like that, but they're paid to be amazing at this game lol...

This deck had quite honestly thee highest learning curve in the entire game, and it gets murdered by the current meta in general... Yes, if you know it like the back of your hand you're gonna pick up a lot of W's but those players aren't Rank 5 players.
08/16/2018 03:28 AMPosted by Macro
First, there's gnomeferatu, second, kingsbane is good as it is. It's a very difficult deck to play, and even more difficult to master; but it rewards good plays and thinking ahead, which is exactly what hearthstone needs. Also, it's not that common. If you lost a single game against kingsbane, you can use your salt on your steak.

Kings is redic-easy to play what are you talking about?
Draw lifesteal...win?
That's seriously it.

In Wild...the deck revolves around Coldlight Oracle and Shadowstep...so gross it's not even funny. Everyone and their bro plays mill kings Rogue in Wild w C-Light.

OP, why do you think that is? Why do you think like...every single Rogue is Maiev playing Kings Coldight in Wild?

A - The decks good and not-bad.
B - The deck isn't really-hard to understand and sequence.

If the deck was real hard n difficult...like you claim...why would seriously every Rogue play it? Not everyone is incredible at HS...and can play the hardest decks well..like old Oil Rogue was...

Kings is like Oil Rogue with floaties. Go play wild and see for your self...every other match...kings mill rogue, kings mill rogue, naturalize mill druid, voidcaller lock, secret mage, kings mill x 80, kings mill, odd paladin, secret mage, nat coldlight druid, kings mill, dopple sham, otk priest, big priest, kun druid, nat druid, kun nat druid, kun nat with coldlight druid, kings mill, kings mill, voidcaller lock x 2 bil, emote etc.
Ooze does wonders. So do taunts. You can pressure them enough to force them use their leeching poisons on a wicked knife. If you are mage, you can counterspell leeching poison. Sure, with a perfect starting hand they can get out of control but I always feel bad after winning against a Kingsbane Rogue with something like Zoo or Tempo Mage, as if I was a morlok crushing an eloi or something.
08/16/2018 09:52 AMPosted by Thorodan
Kings is redic-easy to play what are you talking about?
Draw lifesteal...win?
That's seriously it.

In Wild...the deck revolves around Coldlight Oracle and Shadowstep...so gross it's not even funny. Everyone and their bro plays mill kings Rogue in Wild w C-Light.

OP, why do you think that is? Why do you think like...every single Rogue is Maiev playing Kings Coldight in Wild?

A - The decks good and not-bad.
B - The deck isn't really-hard to understand and sequence.

If the deck was real hard n difficult...like you claim...why would seriously every Rogue play it? Not everyone is incredible at HS...and can play the hardest decks well..like old Oil Rogue was...
The deck is absolutely hard to play optimally.

First, most Rogues in the competitive ranks in Wild are playing Odd Rogue (56%), not Kingsbane (37%). Kingsbane is more common in ranks 20-10, but that's because those players tend to be less competitive (prefer to play clunkier decks).

Also, their opponents in those ranks are playing clunkier decks, and don't know how to close out a game as well, so Kingsbane does a little better sometimes.

Second, just because the deck has some lopsided matchups doesn't mean it's easy to play optimally. Yes, you can still play like garbage and beat Big Priest 65% of the time with it. But bringing your win rate up from 25% against any aggressive or midrange deck is seriously difficult, and there is plenty of nuance in the Reno Warlock matchup.

Just because you don't like the deck, or it does well against your preferred archetypes, does not mean the deck is easy to play. The deck is recognized for having a high skill ceiling.
08/16/2018 05:24 AMPosted by Lutorius
A rogue can only hit one target at a time go wide on the board that's how you beat kingsbane.
Yeah, because returning all cards from the board to your hand is definitely not a thing..
-__-
I dont think it needs to be changed. However id like there to be something that you could tech that actually works. Oozes dont cut it theses days.

However since Boomsday havnt seen kingsbane so theres that to consider too.
08/16/2018 12:20 PMPosted by SAGI
I dont think it needs to be changed. However id like there to be something that you could tech that actually works. Oozes dont cut it theses days.

However since Boomsday havnt seen kingsbane so theres that to consider too.


That's strange. I think I've personally seen more Kingsbane decks on average now, than I did the whole Witchwood meta. Maybe it's because 90% of the decks on ladder are Druid and 8 of those 9 are stall Druid.

Regardless, what you said about Kingsbane being uncounterable is true. At least Mekathun is vulnerable to Demonic Project, but Kingsbane doesn't care about anything.
I'm talking about standard here, so if you're a wild player take this with a grain of salt:

Oozes do work, in that they give you a large early game advantage by delaying your opponent. Kingsbane decks are very draw reliant for the first 6-7 turns. The need to pull KB or a Shineyfinder, as well as at least one weapon buff, and a Leaching Poison or they are very vulnerable to being rushed.

It's entirely possible that they've already used and lost one of their precious Shineyfinders, so when you Ooze Kingsbane they're now reliant on drawing it directly/drawing their one remaining Shineyfinder/pulling Shineyfinder with a Minstrel which has roughly a 1/3 chance of drawing the remaining Shineyfinder depending on what other minions you've already drawn. If your opponent cannot heal from KB then they are taking damage to remove your minions. If they don't have KB and you're playing a fast deck they can be forced to blow their weapon buffs/Leaching Poison on a Dagger, which is a huge blow to their strategy.

People's issues with Oozes is not that they don't work. They do. It just doesn't guarantee you a win. Counters should not be a guaranteed win. Gnomeferato can completely counter combo, but only if you're lucky and force a discard of the right card. Oozes are targeted, not random, and KB isn't a OTK deck that gives your opponent no opportunity to respond once played. If Oozes were a permanent answer to KB then there would be no point in playing KB at all.
[quote="207661387965"]

The deck is absolutely hard to play optimally.

The deck is recognized for having a high skill ceiling.


not sure if serious.
[quote]

The deck is absolutely hard to play optimally.

The deck is recognized for having a high skill ceiling.


not sure if serious.
Playing kingsbane rogue optimally actually requires skill -
    You need to know how/when to use every card in your deck.
    You need to know how to mulligan.
    You need to know your opponents power plays/turns.
    You need to know how/when to play to your 'outs'/take calculated risks

On top of all that, you need a deep understanding of your surrounding meta and the fundamentals of hearthstone - tempo/value/pressure plays and when/how to apply them.

all of this could be said for any deck in hearthstone, but its especially true for kingsbane rogue where youre constantly utilizing your primary resource - Health Points, and heavily dependent on your 'top deck' draw.

i dont think the deck is necessarily difficult to play, but if you're trying to actually win/rank with the deck you definitely need to know how to play hearthstone.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum