Rogues and rastakhan

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I can't say anything but how dissapointed I am with the rogue cards from the upcoming set.

I mainly play rogue since hearthstone release through it's ups and downs but this is just not right. The cards are absolute garbage it's an absolute joke

Walk the plank is unplayable in constructed. Period. It's probably one of the worst cards ever released for rogues alongside ogre ninja and poisoned blade, outside of MAYBE arena, and only just MAYBE this card will not see any play ever, it's infinitely worse than assassinate and assassinate never sees constructed play.

Gurubashi hypemon, good for arena value, but again totally unplayable in constructed, it's too slow and does nothing without a lucky discover.

Cannon barage is the next disgrace in the release, 6 mana deal 3 damage at random once for every pirate. A fully pirate based deck is not viable, it wasn't before it won't be now, pirates are too weak on their own they need to be supported by other zoo cards like bonemare, fungalmancer etc, so most of the time you will have 3-4 pirates AT BEST on board at any time by turn 6+, so you pay 6 mana to deal 9-12 damage randomly. It's too low tempo, it's random, it eats up an entire turn where could have done more tempo with other cards, it's a dead draw if you only have 1-2 pirates on board ... the downsides to this card are just endless.

Gral the shark is just not a rogue card. Rogue doesn't have any tools to play a deck with big minions, it doesn't have charge or rush, it doesn't have stealth, it's vulnerable to silence and polymorph, but not only is it vulnerable to those effect, it even costs you another card if it gets silenced or polymorphed. It goes against anything rogue would want in a deck : it can't combo, it doesn't add tempo, it doesn't do anything when played, it doesn't add value and it may even cripple your own deck.

Rogue only has a slight glimpse of hope with two cards :

Raiding party is great, it could fit into some tempo rogue decklist instead of ministrel

Spirit of the shark can be great, with 4 mana it really need to played late into the game and needs to probably survive the stealthed turn. I have high hopes for this card although i don't think it's really standart viable for now or be able to find a place in wild that brann and shadowcaster don't already fill much better

So maybe it's just me, maybe someone else see's any redeeming quality in these cards but for now I am just as dissapointed as the diablo community after this years blizzcon.
Still got a legend to go mate. It could change everything.
Not to say that Cannon is good, but the formula for its damage is actually 3 + 3 * # of pirates, so in your scenario, with 3 pirates, it would deal 12 and with 4 it would deal 15. It probably needs to deal at least 9 to be potentially worth a slot (based on Avenging Wrath, which itself was only ever viable in Genn Paladin), so you need to consistently hit a bare minimum of 2 pirates, which is definitely not practical at the moment.

Gral is a perfectly fine card, though it definitely doesn't work with traditional rogue decks, as they rely heavily on low stat minions with powerful effects. Still, if you can hit a 3/3 or better consistently, that's a 5 mana 5/5 with a deathrattle that offers targeted draw - not bad at all.

The Loo and Raiding Party are obviously really solid, though it remains to be seen if they'll fit into any current decks or be good enough to build a new one.

Plank is meh. I'd say it's better than Assassinate, but I can't imagine running it over Vilespine in too many circumstances.

It's worth waiting for the rest of the neutral cards, as rogue tends to work especially well with many powerful neutral engines.
Cannon Barrage seems it might be a good finisher for the right kind of aggro deck.

As others have pointed out, your math is wrong. It is (n+1)x3 damage, not nx3. Just two pirates and that’s almost a Pyroblast.
11/25/2018 09:23 AMPosted by Hazama
Still got a legend to go mate. It could change everything.

1 hour and 10 minutes to go.

*crossing my fingers*

But yeah, I'd agree with OP - Rogue desperately needs that type of overhaul hunters got.

Blizzard has absolutely no idea what to make for Rogue, there's honestly 2-3 cards that rogues even use from each expansion and is mostly dictated by what Neutrals that an expansion brings along.

Un'goro; gave us Vilespine Slayer and.. Quest Rogue, while it was a new archetype, there's nothing "rogueish" about it.

Frozen Throne; Valeera the Hollow is the only that still sees play to this date.

Kobold and Catacombs: This expansion actually gave us a few cards, Fal'dorei and Kingsbane being the most notable. I'm not here to argue if Kingsbane is a good or a bad deck, but It has been the only "unique" deck that Rogues has been given in ages. Kingsbane Rogue still relied mainly on Core and Neutral cards to work through.
I'm not even going to say something about Secrets..

Witchwood; Gave us Odd Rogue, which again is just Rogue utilising a strong neutral and is a natural evolution of Tempo Rogue (which relied on Keleseth.)
It's also the start of the revival of "Burgle" Rogue, althrough the deck mainly have started being successful in Boomsday in my opinion.

Boomsday; Made Burgle Rogue better (It's a fun deck but cmon, there's no real flavour.. you're basically hoping to get some good and interesting cards from your opponents class and is relying on complete RNG.)
Pogo Rogue, a worse version of Jade Rogue.
Cube Rogue, again.. It's basically a worse version of Cube Hunter.

Now.. we're being spoon fed with Pirates and while we have 4 cards left.. I'm having doubts whether or not this will spawn a new archetype (doubt it.. )

But..

1 time hour and 10 minutes to go and I'm trying to be hopeful.
I think the cards a great. Cannon barrage will surprise alot of people. Cards with huge potential in Rogue will get experamented with alot. Imagine the pirate captain, 2 deckhands, prep, cannon barrage, weapon swing. That's establishing a board while dealing 18+ damage. If you sap their minion and/or swing your weapon at their minion, that'll all be going face.

Or imaging that same combo, but with malygos or any spell damage added in.
11/25/2018 09:49 AMPosted by OniEyes
Un'goro; gave us Vilespine Slayer and.. Quest Rogue, while it was a new archetype, there's nothing "rogueish" about it.

Bouncing stuff and combos that kill your opponent aren't roguish? Then what exactly is?

It's worth noting that hunter got one new archetype, deathrattle, bringing it to a total of one top-tier archetype and two archetypes that flirt with the fringes of the meta game. Maybe three if you really want to include Odd Hunter, but...

Rogue has pretty consistently had 2 top-tier archetypes and another 3 that rotate in and out of the meta. They are doing pretty well for themselves and have been for a while.
I can tell that you don't play Wild. Wild Pirate Rogue is going to be really fun!
11/25/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Beaky
Not to say that Cannon is good, but the formula for its damage is actually 3 + 3 * # of pirates, so in your scenario, with 3 pirates, it would deal 12 and with 4 it would deal 15. It probably needs to deal at least 9 to be potentially worth a slot (based on Avenging Wrath, which itself was only ever viable in Genn Paladin), so you need to consistently hit a bare minimum of 2 pirates, which is definitely not practical at the moment.


As i said, it's just not playable, not until they release pirates that make a deck based entirely arround that archetype viable. Also yes, my mistake.

11/25/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Beaky
Gral is a perfectly fine card, though it definitely doesn't work with traditional rogue decks, as they rely heavily on low stat minions with powerful effects. Still, if you can hit a 3/3 or better consistently, that's a 5 mana 5/5 with a deathrattle that offers targeted draw - not bad at all.


No it's not. Most decks run some sort of silence or poly, with 5 mana not only is it comparatively slow to anything a rogue could want but it also is played at a time where every silence or poly effect is playable. So not only do you need to have a deck this could work in, but you also have to hope it is not dealt with during the time it is just doing nothing on board. It may be worthwhile in wild but it's a dead standart card for now

11/25/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Beaky
Plank is meh. I'd say it's better than Assassinate, but I can't imagine running it over Vilespine in too many circumstances.


It's actually not. For one less mana you have a crippled removal effect with wayless flexibility than assassinate. The "undamaged" mechanic is really something priest could do much more with than rogue.

11/25/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Beaky
It's worth waiting for the rest of the neutral cards, as rogue tends to work especially well with many powerful neutral engines.


Yes maybe but it would once again be some tempo rogue list or a better deathrattle rogue, so nothing new, maybe one or two new cards played from the set. It's on the way to be a new boomsday and it's sad.
11/25/2018 09:57 AMPosted by Beaky
11/25/2018 09:49 AMPosted by OniEyes
Un'goro; gave us Vilespine Slayer and.. Quest Rogue, while it was a new archetype, there's nothing "rogueish" about it.

Bouncing stuff and combos that kill your opponent aren't roguish? Then what exactly is?

[/quote]
Poison, Stealth, Disguise, Stealing, Spying and Assassination.

There's no real "finesse" in bouncing minions back and forth, buff them up and ram them into your opponents face.

In my opinion, the most "Rogueish" deck was C'thun Rogue - Assassinating your opponents strongest minions to empower your C'thun, wasn't the best deck but it atleast had the flavour of being a rogue.

Of course, this is just my opinion about it and one's definition of Rogue can vary from person to person, I'd just miss abit more of Identity with Rogue since I feel alot of classes are receiving it, especially Hunter lately.
11/25/2018 10:02 AMPosted by NightRaven
I can tell that you don't play Wild. Wild Pirate Rogue is going to be really fun!


Yes i do not play wild much, i mainly play standart and arena, not that i hate wild but i can't really enjoy myself for more than an hour in that mode.
11/25/2018 09:46 AMPosted by Odyssesus
Cannon Barrage seems it might be a good finisher for the right kind of aggro deck.

cannon barrage IS a finisher for a aggro-ish pirate deck... why people want to think of it as a tempo tool is beyond me

sadly, the aggro pirate deck dream is just that, a dream, for standard, it may work at wild though
Those hearthstone original characters normally end doing insane levels of BS.

That is why i'm think that we should atleast wait the reveal of the rogue champion today before say something.
This is gonna sound crazy, but hear me out.

The best even rogue deck is actually a spell damage deck, with things like spellshifter/fisherman/thalnos, you get early chip damage in with cheap daggers and minions then cycle through burn with gadgetzan auctioneer. I played this deck to legend last season, although I won't pretend it's a superpower.

Suppose you're playing that deck, the 2 mana 2/2 pirate is an auto include since you can play it and activate it on turn 2. You also already run the bloodsail raiders, as they're 2 mana 3/3's on turn 2 (Since you also dagger turn 1). If ONE more good pirate is released, then cannon barrage becomes a serious consideration - because in that deck you're not looking at 3 damage per pirate, you're looking at 4-6.

(List: A slightly modified version of the one in this link)

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveHS/comments/8kmzt3/even_spell_damage_rogue_ft_ancient_mage_rank/
ok the dream is down, the guy is right

captain hooktusk costs too much mana for it to properly mesh with the expected strategy
11/25/2018 12:05 PMPosted by RhokDelar
ok the dream is down, the guy is right

captain hooktusk costs too much mana for it to properly mesh with the expected strategy


And what criminal isn't WANTED! dead or alive.

Yeah, that card that gives a coin will be a part of such deck too if people not perceived yet. It even has the same theme.
11/25/2018 11:38 AMPosted by FrostyFeet
This is gonna sound crazy, but hear me out.

The best even rogue deck is actually a spell damage deck, with things like spellshifter/fisherman/thalnos, you get early chip damage in with cheap daggers and minions then cycle through burn with gadgetzan auctioneer. I played this deck to legend last season, although I won't pretend it's a superpower.

Suppose you're playing that deck, the 2 mana 2/2 pirate is an auto include since you can play it and activate it on turn 2. You also already run the bloodsail raiders, as they're 2 mana 3/3's on turn 2 (Since you also dagger turn 1). If ONE more good pirate is released, then cannon barrage becomes a serious consideration - because in that deck you're not looking at 3 damage per pirate, you're looking at 4-6.

[/quote]

If you look at that decklist there is no card you could reasonably swap out for cannonball barrage.
Also the decks winrate may also be explained by the cheese factor due to people never facing this deck and therefor being clueless as to what to expect, let it get popular and have people discovering it on HS replay so people can prepare for it and check it's winrate then.

I don't know why people still think there is any hope for pirate rogue deck. Unless powerful pirates get released pirate rogue will just be regular aggro rogue with some pirates in it and if you look for a finisher i don't know in what world cannonball barrage would have a place in such deck as a finisher instead of say leeroy jenkins or fungalmancer.

A much better design for that card that could actually have helped a pirate rogue deck and just rogue in general would have been : 6 mana deal 2 damage to each ennemy minion, repeat for each of your pirates : much more consistent, gives maybe a "second chance" and could help other decks that aren't just aggro.
11/25/2018 11:38 AMPosted by FrostyFeet
This is gonna sound crazy, but hear me out.

The best even rogue deck is actually a spell damage deck, with things like spellshifter/fisherman/thalnos, you get early chip damage in with cheap daggers and minions then cycle through burn with gadgetzan auctioneer. I played this deck to legend last season, although I won't pretend it's a superpower.

Suppose you're playing that deck, the 2 mana 2/2 pirate is an auto include since you can play it and activate it on turn 2. You also already run the bloodsail raiders, as they're 2 mana 3/3's on turn 2 (Since you also dagger turn 1). If ONE more good pirate is released, then cannon barrage becomes a serious consideration - because in that deck you're not looking at 3 damage per pirate, you're looking at 4-6.

(List: A slightly modified version of the one in this link)

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveHS/comments/8kmzt3/even_spell_damage_rogue_ft_ancient_mage_rank/


I haven’t taken it to legend, but I’ve done enough experimentation with Even Rogue to tell you your idea won’t work. I had so much trouble editing my deck build because Spell Damage even Rogue hinges to much on a very specific set of cards to work. You don’t have much flexibility in subbing cards in and out. A pirate/spell damage even Rogue simply won’t work out.

On the other hand, subbing out most of the spell damage pieces for a more well rounded pirate package may actually work out. The spell package is gimmicky enough as is in Even Rogue, making it less practical by taking out half the package just for an equally gimmicky half package just will not do, you have to overhaul it entirely and build a seperate pirate version, which I will definitely be memeing with
I think there’s hope post rotation. Look at Druid for comparison on a totally awkward set of cards.

Gral actually works OK on DR Rogue post rotation since there’s many silence targets there, and you can activate DR ASAP with the weapon.

Some have hypothesized a Pirate KB deck using the new spells. Personally I’m curious to see whether Pirate KB Rogue draws fast enough to play it with Mecha’Thun the way Exodia Paladin uses Call To Arms.

Walk the Plank is lower power level than Vilespine. But that’s OK because the general power level of everything Raven is lower than Mammoth. Druid has to sub UI with Juicy for quick drawing, for example.
I’d start somewhere like this for an Even Pirate Rogue.

https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/deck-builder/#?class=Rogue&format=2&deck=1801:2,1658:2,129673:2,1955:2,88963:2,1711:2,128506:2,73581:2,57791:2,2004:2,128476:1,129612:2,130460:2,128628:2,86999:1,131054:1,89014:1

It’s a quick throw together, and extremely unrefined, but it’s a decent start.

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