Exactly zero people whined about Mana Wyrm

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10/16/2018 09:37 AMPosted by WarrenBleezy
10/16/2018 09:24 AMPosted by Lyrist
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Have you seen the winrate for keleseth in your opening hand?

I didn't see keleseth on the nerfs page....................................................................................


I actually did look at the Keleseth winrates too:

Deathrattle Hunter: 61,5%
Shudderwock Shaman: 64,3%
Big Spell Mage: 62,8%
Zoolock : 73,7%

So Mana Wyrm is in the same ballpark, but it comes without any deck building requirements.

It's not like people have not complained about Keleseth, but he will eventually rotate out of standard. Mana Wyrm will not.


Get back to me around March when they nerf keleseth last minute because "well suddenly it's too powerful for wild guys BUT NOT FOR THE YEAR BEFORE LOLOLOL DID YOU PREORDER YEAR OF THE DONKEY YET!?!?
10/16/2018 09:32 AMPosted by RhokDelar
10/16/2018 08:31 AMPosted by PresJPolk
Being able to fluke a win your opponent can't stop is BAD design, and they're GOOD to fix it.

are you talking about keleseth there? cause wyrm can be stopped most of the time


Keleseth is garbage design, too, and they absolutely should rework the card.
I think nerfing it allows them to bring out more 0, 1, 2 cost Mage spells in the future. I think that was as big if not a bigger reason for the nerf than the percentage of games that Mana Worm wins on its own.
I think nerfing it allows them to bring out more 0, 1, 2 cost Mage spells in the future


I tend to think this is probably the case as well. I'd have rather they dropped MW to 2 HP as the nerf, but if their intention is to allow Mages to have a better array of 0 and 1 cost cantrips then I can totally see where they're coming from.
10/16/2018 09:57 AMPosted by TheBadJesus
I think nerfing it allows them to bring out more 0, 1, 2 cost Mage spells in the future. I think that was as big if not a bigger reason for the nerf than the percentage of games that Mana Worm wins on its own.


If that's the case, why was it still fine only a couple weeks ago? Why is the only card in Mage which might do enough "chip" damage to negate some of the ridiculous armor gain from Druid and Warrior nerfed to oblivion?

At this point only some kind of entrails-reading oracle can attempt to explain this nonsense.
10/16/2018 09:57 AMPosted by TheBadJesus
I think nerfing it allows them to bring out more 0, 1, 2 cost Mage spells in the future. I think that was as big if not a bigger reason for the nerf than the percentage of games that Mana Worm wins on its own.


Not only is tempo mage usually not physically capable of spamming a lot of spells in the early game because they don't actually have them, but they often don't WANT to even if they do because they would rather be playing minions if they can help it. You don't really want to play frostbolt turn 2 if you can help it, you'd rather play apprentice or arcanologist or something. You can coin intellect and attack for 3 but that's actually a weak turn for tempo and if the opponent didn't already remove the wyrm they're definitely going to now and you have nothing else in play yet. You can apprentice missiles, but that might not be good value because it might not kill anything or it might be a matchup where it's worth saving for when there's something in play. Same for shooting star, there might be nothing good in play yet. Mirror image might not have anything to block yet and you're just opening up to MCT or some board clear.

Just hitting face for 2-4 damage by turn 2 is really nothing. If it was something stonetusk boar would see more play than just in combo gimmicks. Something actually has to go wrong for mana wyrm to become much more than that.

Tempo mage isn't even good against most of the top decks. ONE PERSON played it in the tournament over the weekend. Compare it to the rest of the players lineups for a better idea of what the pros think are the strongest decks in the game.
I don't get your point dude.

If you're saying the Wyrm wasn't good to begin with, or that it never really got to snowball, it means tempo mage will survive just fine without it. To be honest, replace it with Firefly or Dire Mole and you still have the exact same deck minus the high roll potential of Wyrm turn 1.

Anyway, we get that it's frustrating if you enjoyed the deck.
And there should've been other nerfs to card that have the same problem as Mana Wyrm (eg Keleseth and Wild Growth). For sure. Everyone agrees. That doesn't mean Mana Wyrm's nerf is uncalled for, and that doesn't mean tempo mage will die instantly (even though it will probably be a lot less played because "it's been nerfed, let's move to something else" effect).
I
To be honest, replace it with Firefly or Dire Mole...


And you don't see an issue with this?
Not only is tempo mage usually not physically capable of spamming a lot of spells in the early game because they don't actually have them


Well, that's kind of the point though isn't it? Increasing the cost of MW opens up the Mage class to getting more of those kinds of spells. And with the existence of massive draw cards like Aluneth and Luna would synergize with that. It may very well be with a few more cheap spells, Tempo Mage will be even BETTER.
10/16/2018 10:25 AMPosted by Underman
I don't get your point dude.

If you're saying the Wyrm wasn't good to begin with, or that it never really got to snowball, it means tempo mage will survive just fine without it. To be honest, replace it with Firefly or Dire Mole and you still have the exact same deck minus the high roll potential of Wyrm turn 1.

Anyway, we get that it's frustrating if you enjoyed the deck.
And there should've been other nerfs to card that have the same problem as Mana Wyrm (eg Keleseth and Wild Growth). For sure. Everyone agrees. That doesn't mean Mana Wyrm's nerf is uncalled for, and that doesn't mean tempo mage will die instantly (even though it will probably be a lot less played because "it's been nerfed, let's move to something else" effect).


Mana wyrm is great tempo for tempo mage without it, it loses tempo and will fall behind and just plain suck at out tempoing. Mana wyrm needed a nerf years ago when it was actually paired with good cheap tempo spells, current mage cards do not contain that and it doesnt matter what anybody says about it now because at this point its not doing anything broken, it has before and maybe it will in the next set but nerfing it NOW is just plain stupid.
I've seen plenty of complaints about Mana Wyrm on here ever since I started frequenting the forums. It IS quite strong for a 1-drop, though I believe there was a better solution than making it 2 mana instead. I mean... Northsire early-game-board-contestant-and-draw-engine Cleric serves a very similar role, and Priest can actively keep them alive longer.

Either way, I see a lot of conflicting arguments on here. Either Mana Wyrm wasn't that good to begin with and Burn Mage will be just fine, or it was a huge cornerstone of the deck and Burn Mage is now gutter trash.

Which is it?
I
To be honest, replace it with Firefly or Dire Mole...


And you don't see an issue with this? You don't see how it makes no sense to say "we're going to nerf mage so they have to play something else because diversity" and then they just play the same cards EVERY OTHER CLASS IS PLAYING in its place?

The game is actually more diverse and fun with mana wyrm because this class has something that makes it different and interesting compared to the other classes. All of the classes should have good, interesting cards that set them apart from the other classes. Nerfing cards like mana wyrm hurts this. The classes need MORE of them, not less. We shouldn't have a bunch of classes rely on the same neutral cards for play. They get played out and annoying and the games feel the same.

Firefly itself is an overpowered 1 drop that is already allowed to see way more play than it should because most of the classes don't have anything better. It just does everything and I've hated it since it was released. I don't want to see firefly and dire mole in every other game. It's stupid.
I dont understand the going logic on why the nerf was ok. Tempo mage now hasnt been doing anything too significant which means mana wyrm hasnt actually been doing anything too out of line. Mana wyrm was better when there were actually good tempo spells to use like a year or so ago. Why is it ok 2 months before a new set to nerf mana wrym when new sets are created AHEAD OF TIME. This nerf could have come months ago with WW or 2 months from now during the new set. Nerfing it now was just a killshot to tempo mage for the next 2 months.
10/16/2018 10:34 AMPosted by Wardrum
I've seen plenty of complaints about Mana Wyrm on here ever since I started frequenting the forums. It IS quite strong for a 1-drop, though I believe there was a better solution than making it 2 mana instead. I mean... Northsire early-game-board-contestant-and-draw-engine Cleric serves a very similar role, and Priest can actively keep them alive longer.

Either way, I see a lot of conflicting arguments on here. Either Mana Wyrm wasn't that good to begin with and Burn Mage will be just fine, or it was a huge cornerstone of the deck and Burn Mage is now gutter trash.

Which is it?


It's important to the deck both because it is iconic and because it is strong. The point of saying it doesn't snowball very often isn't to say it isn't strong or important, it just means exactly what we're saying - it doesn't happen very often and something has to go wrong for it to happen, so nerfing it because of a situation that doesn't come up very often and can easily be solved by just giving more of the classes decent early minions and removal is silly.
10/16/2018 10:34 AMPosted by Wardrum
I've seen plenty of complaints about Mana Wyrm on here ever since I started frequenting the forums. It IS quite strong for a 1-drop, though I believe there was a better solution than making it 2 mana instead. I mean... Northsire early-game-board-contestant-and-draw-engine Cleric serves a very similar role, and Priest can actively keep them alive longer.

Either way, I see a lot of conflicting arguments on here. Either Mana Wyrm wasn't that good to begin with and Burn Mage will be just fine, or it was a huge cornerstone of the deck and Burn Mage is now gutter trash.

Which is it?


I think it is the Hex nerf treatment. Just really weird timing. Especially when Druid is doing Druid things. Mana Wyrm has always been a very powerful card but not OP in this meta.

I am tired of classic cards getting nerfed though. Take Kiblers advice and have a rotating core set each season to mix it up that way wild doesn’t suffer from nerfs.
Blizzard has no clue.
10/16/2018 09:18 AMPosted by WarrenBleezy
According to HSreplay, Mana Wyrm has a 64% winrate when in your opening hand.


So it's as strong as fire fly.

NERF!!1!
10/16/2018 10:42 AMPosted by Lyrist
The point of saying it doesn't snowball very often isn't to say it isn't strong or important, it just means exactly what we're saying - it doesn't happen very often and something has to go wrong for it to happen, so nerfing it because of a situation that doesn't come up very often and can easily be solved by just giving more of the classes decent early minions and removal is silly.

So nerfing it so it never snowballs instead of snowballing when something goes wrong shouldn't change the average performance of the deck right?
So it's only because they're nerfing an iconic mage minion that everyone is so upset?
Also in a deck with quite litterally nothing but mage cards (seriously, the most played deck from hsreplay has 1 classic card and 29 mage cards), I think we're pretty far from playing
10/16/2018 10:36 AMPosted by Lyrist
the same cards EVERY OTHER CLASS IS PLAYING
. And just wait until blizzcon and the new mage 1 drop is announced.
10/16/2018 10:50 AMPosted by Windfeather
10/16/2018 09:18 AMPosted by WarrenBleezy
According to HSreplay, Mana Wyrm has a 64% winrate when in your opening hand.


So it's as strong as fire fly.

NERF!!1!


What on earth are you talking about?
10/16/2018 10:42 AMPosted by Lyrist
just giving more of the classes decent early minions and removal
This is explicitly stated as what they're looking to move away from - powerful or difficult-to-remove 1-drops.

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