Nerfs only prove poor card design that backs development into a corner

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When you nerf certain cards in order to stop a combo that arises from a single bad card design, it just goes to show that the real problem is poor design in new cards.

For example, the introduction of cards like Baku forces future card making decisions to take into account any future interactions with odd cost cards. That puts design into a corner. You can't make certain cards that would seem fine at their cost level, like level up, because Baku's interaction breaks the card.

You can't make a saronite chain gang card because of Shudderwock. Shudderwock prevents design in future cards. You're forced into a corner for all future battlecry cards for shaman because of this single card.

You can't make weapon buffs for rogue without considering kingsbane.

What I'm getting at is that the nerfs aren't even nerfs because of the card itself, the nerfs are because of an entirely different card. Leeching poison isn't broken. Chain gang isn't broken. Level up isn't broken. You're just forced to change those cards because of the design of another card.
You are right
Ultimate infestation is another example responsible for 3 nerfs:
Innerwate
Wild growth
Nourish
All from classic because they cannot admit UI is the problem...
12/19/2018 09:48 AMPosted by Shirei
You are right
Ultimate infestation is another example responsible for 3 nerfs:
Innerwate
Wild growth
Nourish
All from classic because they cannot admit UI is the problem...


innervate was an issue long before ultimate infestation same with wild growth and nourish.
And to add, it's ok to make these kinds of cards IF you also make a way to counter them.

The design team failed to make counters. No new Dirty Rat type of card was introduced, no weapon copying, no hero power copying, etc.

Failure to make counters accessible to more than just 1 class, failure to make counters at all for some stuff is what is hurting the game and causing the dev team to nerf OTHER cards to stop these things from getting to where they are in current form.
12/19/2018 09:26 AMPosted by Schyla
When you nerf certain cards in order to stop a combo that arises from a single bad card design, it just goes to show that the real problem is poor design in new cards.

For example, the introduction of cards like Baku forces future card making decisions to take into account any future interactions with odd cost cards. That puts design into a corner. You can't make certain cards that would seem fine at their cost level, like level up, because Baku's interaction breaks the card.

You can't make a saronite chain gang card because of Shudderwock. Shudderwock prevents design in future cards. You're forced into a corner for all future battlecry cards for shaman because of this single card.

You can't make weapon buffs for rogue without considering kingsbane.

What I'm getting at is that the nerfs aren't even nerfs because of the card itself, the nerfs are because of an entirely different card. Leeching poison isn't broken. Chain gang isn't broken. Level up isn't broken. You're just forced to change those cards because of the design of another card.
You aren't wrong. The Dev team prioritizes creating future expansions rather than balancing the game after an expansion is released. This "Nerf" hit is basically just a bandaid on a bad laceration. It needs stitches but hopefully this "bandaid" stops the bleeding a little bit.
I agree about baku/genn and UI, but SCG should have never allowed to copy itself with all the buffs, it had been an issue since keleseth tempo rogue days back at KoFT -actually, I hope all othee self copying cards get the same treatment eventually (and I say this as a secondary zoolock player)

now, what Tman15tmb says I also agree, I commented something similar yesterday at another post: they worry too much into future expansions (more releases = more money) instead of focusing/fixing current problems
12/19/2018 09:48 AMPosted by Shirei
You are right
Ultimate infestation is another example responsible for 3 nerfs:
Innerwate
Wild growth
Nourish
All from classic because they cannot admit UI is the problem...


Ultimate Infestation was 4 months from not existing... why would they nerf the base set because of it? That makes no sense.
The nerfs are stupid, as the previous nerfs were also stupid:

-Innervate, wild growth and nourish were key cards to druids identity. And they re all nerfed for like no reason....
Druid became annoying the previous expansions not because of ramping but cause:
a) He could get 100+ armor and therefore stall the game forever b)he could fill his hand out of nowhere with UI

-Saronite chain gang could be buffed while playing a handbuff paladin or something similar. Now he cant cause of Shudderwock.

-Leeching poison was only a problem cause of kingsbane. Otherwise it was just a decent card.

Someone sent a doctor to the blizzards office. These guys forgot to take their psychopills.
This is what happens when you've got Activision breathing down your dev team's neck. Every decision is made to squeeze as much money out of your customers as possible, new content is always rushed-out and unfinished before it can be given a proper level of polish, and short-term gains are held sacred above all else, customer satisfaction be damned.

I will not spend one cent on packs so long as these business practices continue.
12/19/2018 10:48 AMPosted by TheChemist
The nerfs are stupid, as the previous nerfs were also stupid:

-Innervate, wild growth and nourish were key cards to druids identity. And they re all nerfed for like no reason....
Druid became annoying the previous expansions not because of ramping but cause:
a) He could get 100+ armor and therefore stall the game forever b)he could fill his hand out of nowhere with UI

-Saronite chain gang could be buffed while playing a handbuff paladin or something similar. Now he cant cause of Shudderwock.

-Leeching poison was only a problem cause of kingsbane. Otherwise it was just a decent card.

Someone sent a doctor to the blizzards office. These guys forgot to take their psychopills.


I just wanted to correct one thing.

Leech poison wasnt even a good card

All the rest have seen play in other decks besides the ones we see today. They stand on their own two feet, and not even in a broken way.

Leeching poison is actually a garbage card. Rogue often has no healing and if they do run a weapon it has to be used for minions.

And they dont have high damage weapons (excluding kingsbane combos) to even use it as a stabilizing tool like paladin does with its death knight.

It saw zero play outside of one specific combo that was only good now. One that is perfectly fine to nerf. But they did manage to make a terrible card (otherwise) worse.
12/19/2018 10:57 AMPosted by Gishgeron
12/19/2018 10:48 AMPosted by TheChemist
The nerfs are stupid, as the previous nerfs were also stupid:

-Innervate, wild growth and nourish were key cards to druids identity. And they re all nerfed for like no reason....
Druid became annoying the previous expansions not because of ramping but cause:
a) He could get 100+ armor and therefore stall the game forever b)he could fill his hand out of nowhere with UI

-Saronite chain gang could be buffed while playing a handbuff paladin or something similar. Now he cant cause of Shudderwock.

-Leeching poison was only a problem cause of kingsbane. Otherwise it was just a decent card.

Someone sent a doctor to the blizzards office. These guys forgot to take their psychopills.


I just wanted to correct one thing.

Leech poison wasnt even a good card

All the rest have seen play in other decks besides the ones we see today. They stand on their own two feet, and not even in a broken way.

Leeching poison is actually a garbage card. Rogue often has no healing and if they do run a weapon it has to be used for minions.

And they dont have high damage weapons (excluding kingsbane combos) to even use it as a stabilizing tool like paladin does with its death knight.

It saw zero play outside of one specific combo that was only good now. One that is perfectly fine to nerf. But they did manage to make a terrible card (otherwise) worse.


That's what I'm talking about as well. Nerfing a card that doesn't need to be nerfed because of the interaction with a different card.

That's bad design and a bad way to deal with the real issue.
They can print all of the "Copy this" cards they want once Grumble rotates out. They opted to nerf Chain Gang because it rotates out and the nerf has minimal impact on any other decks.

Cards don't exist in a vacuum. The interactions matter. Shudderwock, Baku, and Kingsbane decks can all continue to exist. Shudderwock and Baku will be around for another year... Direct nerfs would effectively eliminate those cards from seeing play, ever.

There's a big difference between nerfing "deck defining" cards and "enablers".

As for Druid... Those nerfs have been coming for a long time. I was expecting one of those cards to get sent to the Hall of Fame. Those cards were always auto-includes in Druid decks, long before UI.
12/19/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Schyla
12/19/2018 10:57 AMPosted by Gishgeron
...

I just wanted to correct one thing.

Leech poison wasnt even a good card

All the rest have seen play in other decks besides the ones we see today. They stand on their own two feet, and not even in a broken way.

Leeching poison is actually a garbage card. Rogue often has no healing and if they do run a weapon it has to be used for minions.

And they dont have high damage weapons (excluding kingsbane combos) to even use it as a stabilizing tool like paladin does with its death knight.

It saw zero play outside of one specific combo that was only good now. One that is perfectly fine to nerf. But they did manage to make a terrible card (otherwise) worse.


That's what I'm talking about as well. Nerfing a card that doesn't need to be nerfed because of the interaction with a different card.

That's bad design and a bad way to deal with the real issue.


And what is the real issue? I'm asking for a friend.
And by nerfing chain gang they hit buff paladin pretty hard, so sad. They should have just nerfed shudderwock.
12/19/2018 09:26 AMPosted by Schyla
When you nerf certain cards in order to stop a combo that arises from a single bad card design, it just goes to show that the real problem is poor design in new cards.

For example, the introduction of cards like Baku forces future card making decisions to take into account any future interactions with odd cost cards. That puts design into a corner. You can't make certain cards that would seem fine at their cost level, like level up, because Baku's interaction breaks the card.

You can't make a saronite chain gang card because of Shudderwock. Shudderwock prevents design in future cards. You're forced into a corner for all future battlecry cards for shaman because of this single card.

You can't make weapon buffs for rogue without considering kingsbane.

What I'm getting at is that the nerfs aren't even nerfs because of the card itself, the nerfs are because of an entirely different card. Leeching poison isn't broken. Chain gang isn't broken. Level up isn't broken. You're just forced to change those cards because of the design of another card.
Bingo, what ive been trying to say (as well and couple or hundred other ppl on here)...who aren't blind to the deeper-issue. Yea, nerfing Shud's great..but not this way? Its the angle they take that's the problem...the other decks and cards it affects..instead of the core-card. Also In Druid's case...familiarity? Doesn't that matter? The feel-goodness of playing what we all become so used to? Why overhaul it for old-expansion cards?

In fact...who doesn't believe that Shudder was A reason Coldlight Oracle got moved to Wild? That means neutral draw in standard is super slow...meaning deckbuilding suffers for non-meta brainstorming.

They wilded Coldlight because of stuff like Shudderwock, now they nerf Saronite because of Shudder.

Heck..they just gutted Wild Growth and Nourish because of UI, Plague, and all the other expansion-druid-cards. Back in '14 '15 as you all recall, Growth n Nourish had-real-drawbacks....wonder why that changed since then? It certainly wasn't Growth and Nourish...they were already there...it must be expansion cards...that they are siding with entirely.

Its the expansions from like 2017-2018 especially...Un'Goro (the best-ever expansion...according to the forums...remember?) Knights (omg death knights!) through Witchwood….this stuff they printed OP'd these classes so they nerf Classic/Basic instead of building around it.

Yea, your packages are too-strong right now since our last expansions over the last 2 years...so we'll attack your core-set. Hey, thanks Blizz...you just never seem to own printing too strong cards that are still on sale in the gold shop. Is that what this is all about? If you devalue current gold packs...like Goro Knights KnC WW...by nerfing cards from those sets...would they still sell? Just a guess.

Tar Creeper is more offensive than Saronite...being able to protect your aggro drops with a Tar is...really highrolly and hard to deal with. But they nerf Saronite. Rather see a nerf to Tar-creeper because what aggro deck doesn't run it or Stonehill? Either way Shuds the bombshell to target...obviously...but for some reason Saronite's synergy...they went after the wingman.
They release 405 new cards every year now - what did you expect?
The team struggeling to identify problematic synergies before an exp goes live is nothing new. Considering they are even ... "clever" enough to create cards 2 expansions in advance, the state of the overall game is strangely o.k. at all times.

Blizzard sure shows its Activision ;-) Not just when it comes to HS.
Well, yea.

ANY card with ANY synergy limits design space, to a lesser or greater degree. The only time it becomes problematic is when that card creates an interaction that is either too powerful, or promotes unhealthy/unfun gameplay.

Also...


In fact...who doesn't believe that Shudder was A reason Coldlight Oracle got moved to Wild? .


Coldlight oracle has not ever been remotely close to seeing high-level play in a shudderwock deck. I'm not even sure what you're implying here, in fact? Are you saying that coldlight allowed for milling of the opponent, or that it was too much draw for the shudder combo deck?

Because if you play coldlight your shudderwock turn is going to draw you like 20 cards and kill you, or draw cards preventing your shudder from returning to hand...
12/19/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Schyla
That's what I'm talking about as well. Nerfing a card that doesn't need to be nerfed because of the interaction with a different card.

That's bad design and a bad way to deal with the real issue.

Kingsbane isn't a bad design. It was Leeching Poison that made it feel oppressive. The idea of Rogue having this super hard hitting weapon that they've built their deck around buffing is fine, and the weakness should be that they just can't sustain using it to infinitely clear minions. But once it had lifesteal, that weakness was gone outside of OTK levels of burst. This change fixes the issue that made the deck oppressive while still keeping the main card's function.

It's super lazy to sit on the sidelines and shout "Bad design!" The beauty of Hearthstone when compared to MTG is that it can have cards like Kingsbane and Shudderwock. Cards that do cool, crazy things. We don't actually want the game to become just boring vanillaish minions because the dev team is scared of ever having strong interactions between cards. If those arise, and they can still keep the essence of the card while just tweaking the 'feelsbadman' aspects, that's the best approach.
12/19/2018 03:02 PMPosted by Andrei
12/19/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Schyla
...

That's what I'm talking about as well. Nerfing a card that doesn't need to be nerfed because of the interaction with a different card.

That's bad design and a bad way to deal with the real issue.


And what is the real issue? I'm asking for a friend.


The card that allows you to get infinite, neigh uncounterable, use from weapon buffs?

This would be like nerfing animal companion because you thought Zuljin was too powerful.

Except that animal companion is actually good without Zuljin
12/19/2018 03:02 PMPosted by Andrei
12/19/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Schyla
...

That's what I'm talking about as well. Nerfing a card that doesn't need to be nerfed because of the interaction with a different card.

That's bad design and a bad way to deal with the real issue.


And what is the real issue? I'm asking for a friend.


The real issue is the lack of counter play to those types of decks because the design of those cards require an anti design card which does not currently exist or does not exist in standard.

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