These balance changes frustrate me.

Community Discussion
Just want to share my opinions. I've been playing this game since open beta and no balance patch has really frustrated me as much as this one.

First of all, nerfing Druid ramp. I see that Druid is in an obnoxious state right now, and they have such a powerful combo "shell" that you add a win condition to and suddenly have a good deck. But of all the aspects of that - the heavy armor gain, the insane card draw, and the ramp - why did Blizzard target ramp? It's been core to Druid's identity since the start of the game, whereas all of this armor gain, card draw, and Spreading Plague (punishing players for having a board is unfun) is just untouched in these nerfs. As a side note, the philosophy of nerfing Classic cards because "seeing them too much gets repetitive" makes no sense to me. Classic cards are supposed to be a core set of decent cards that give classes consistent identities and new players a starting point to build strong decks; nerfing classic cards and pushing power to expansion cards defeats both of these purposes.

Second, the Saronite Chain Gang (Shudderwock) nerf. Another nerf I don't understand at all... the infinite Shudderwock combos aren't even a strong, consistent combo deck. They're worse than Druid combos, and usually only win against slow decks that combo decks are supposed to be good against. I can understand that once a Shudderwock player lands their combo and all the battlecries start going off, it can be frustrating. That's why the concede button exists. If a combo succeeds, you usually just lose the game. So why can't Shudderwock combos succeeding result in you losing the game? You see a combo go off (Druid plays their discounted Malygos and starts throwing spells, Priest drops their deathrattle minions to pull Mecha'thun from hand and kill it) and you know you've lost. Why is Shudderwock not allowed to do the same thing?

Third, the Leeching Poison (Kingsbane) nerf. I'm not sure how I feel about this one because I really hate playing against Kingsbane in Wild, but I think Standard Kingsbane is a fair, low tier deck like Shudderwock combo that didn't need to be touched. Leeching Poison was a good angle to take in deciding how to nerf Kingsbane (though why does a low tier deck need to be nerfed?), except that all the Kingsbane players can't even refund their Kingsbane now that the one deck it could be used in is just unfair and anti-consumer. This has also left Leeching Poison somehow being an even worse and more unplayable card than before. It only saw play because of Kingsbane, and is now one of the worst cards in the game.

As for changes we didn't see, how about those Hunters? Standard is filled with people playing strong Hunter decks, from Secret to Deathrattle to the classic Beast aggro decks. And they're all pretty good. Blizzard is nerfing low tier decks like Shudderwock combo and Kingsbane, while one class dominating ranked with multiple good decks is left untouched. I'm actually fine with not seeing Hunter nerfs on their own, but seeing fun and objectively worse decks be nerfed out of existence while more obvious targets exist like Hunter is really frustrating to me.

I know Blizzard tends to be heavy-handed and unfair with nerfs, but at least they usually target decks that are overperforming. I liked playing Grim Patron Warrior, but the Frothing Berserker adding so much damage was unfair. To me, it seemed obvious to limit Warsong Commander to minions while they have 3 or less attack so that Frothing Berserker would lose Charge once he gained attack, but instead Blizzard just made Warsong Commander an unplayable card and deleted the deck archetype from existence. Now, we're seeing similar heavy nerfs to delete archetypes, but not on overperforming top tier decks like Grim Patron Warrior, but on low tier decks like Shudderwock combo Shaman and Kingsbane Rogue.

Postnote, Level Up nerf seems good to me. I didn't really like Odd Paladin, so taking away one of their powerful finisher plays seems good. I still think that Even/Odd decks aren't good for the game since they reward arbitrary deckbuilding decisions with a powerful benefit from the start of the game (versus cards like Reno that rewarded these decisions with a one-time comeback mechanic), but I guess they'll rotate out of Standard eventually.

TL;DR I don't like that Blizzard is attacking class identities in the Classic set, nerfing fun and low tier decks out of existence, and ignoring the clear strong meta decks of Hunter.
This whole update received a major whiplash.
I believe blizzard thought they'd be the knight in shining armor coming to save the day with these nerfs because a LOT of people have been complaining about druids fast mana gain and controling the deck with big minions, kingsbane being 12+ lifesteal per attack, and paladin just instantly having a whole board full of lethal minions (several times). Saronite nerf was just "but why?" reaction.

They listened to the whiners and now we have several decks instantly broken.

Not sure how fixing the game by breaking it is a good idea.
The nerfs were necessary, but I think the main issue of frustration (at least for me) is that only common and rare cards were nerfed, leaving legendaries untouched.

I think its activision business model. "Lets not nerf legendaries otherwise the players would get full 1600 dust refund, lets nerf common cards, so the players have to buy more and more packs".

I crafted an amount of legendaries cards last week, now its pretty much useless, buts is ok, I did buy Raskathan expansion and I wont buy anything from blizzard anymore. This activision business model sicks me.
The reason they probably left hunter untouched is because all aspects of those strong hunter decks have counter play options in the game. There are ways to disrupt secret hunters and deathrattle hunters available so people just need to use them.

When it comes to kingsbane, shudderwock, and even druid ramp, there is literally 0 counter play available. The only way they could nerf these decks without dumpstering them is by hitting component pieces to disrupt the overall power they have.

These decks can all still be played, they're just not as strong as they used to be. It will require some thoughtful deck building and/or play to still pilot these decks but realistically the flavor they had is still very much viable.
12/19/2018 10:28 PMPosted by Madman357357
It will require some thoughtful deck building and/or play to still pilot these decks but realistically the flavor they had is still very much viable.


Kingsbane Rogue no longer has sustain and cannot contest the board for more than a few turns, so it's pretty much dead. Shudderwock combo Shaman has no other ways to duplicate and bounce Shudderwocks in Standard, so this deck is actually dead no matter how you build or play the deck.

Also, as for counterplay, I do think Kingsbane was a mistake since you are very right that Kingsbane lacks it. Even if you destroy the weapon, they'll just draw it again with the same buffs. Then there's no way to stop the weapon from getting buffed.

However, for any combo deck (and maybe even Kingsbane), there is always the counterplay of just playing an aggressive deck and killing them before they can combo. Shudderwock combos take so long to draw all the cards they need, and have to run subpar minions to set up, so that leaves a lot of space for aggro, tempo, and midrange decks to just kill them. This should be true with Druid too, but Blizzard gave them too many tools with insane card draw, loads of armor gain, and ways to punish a wide board like Spreading Plague, which made ramp a problem. Ramp should be fine in the game if Druid didn't have every other tool; I think that since ramp is the part core to Druid's classic identity, that is the part that should be untouched and all of their other tools should be toned down. If a Druid ramps but has no powerful cards like Ultimate Infestation or Branching Paths to ramp to, they suddenly get a lot worse.

(Also, the general combo counter of Warlock nonsense still exists - Gnomeferatu, Demonic Project. I think that we need another neutral card like Dirty Rat in Standard at all times to provide a reasonable counter to these kinds of decks, but the decks themselves should be allowed to exist.)

As for Hunter, I don't think that Hunter actually needs nerfs, but neither do Kingsbane Rogue or Shudderwock combo Shaman. I just feel that if these lower tier decks are worth archetype-destroying nerfs for whatever reason, Hunter should also be looked at. There are some limited counterplay options for all Hunter archetypes, but they're still so strong despite that.
Deal with it.
Kingsbane can still use their weapon to hard control the board in the early game, all this change means is that they can't do it indefinitely and they need to think more if they want to swing their weapon into a big minion or not. The change to leeching helps this though because you can effectively swing into a big minion with no or very little damage taken, or use it late game to restore some health by swinging face. I don't think the kingsbane archetype is dead, it just needs to be changed and probably played differently than before.

Aside from the fact that aggro has been in a fairly weak spot for a while now, shudderwock shaman has the defensive tools necessary to stall a game long enough to do what they need to do. They don't even really need to play their "combo pieces" optimally because once they shudderwock they get all the value they need. This change basically changes shudderwock from an i-win card into a strong, potentially high value, late game tempo play. Going infinite with shudderwock should have never been allowed in the first place imo, and even with this change it's still technically possible to achieve using Zola, so the deck can and probably will still be around to some extent.

The problem is that people are so used to overpowered, oppressive decks that when their power level gets brought down to something akin to normal people start doomsaying and calling things trash. Kingsbane and shudderwock are still strong cards in their own right, they've just been balanced to be more fair towards their opponent.
To be fair to blizzard, Shudderwock can still be played in wild, (with Dopplegangster). So in the end, all they really did was push that deck to wild sooner than we thought it would be pushed there.

P.S. I'm still against the nerf because I loved that Shudderwock deck and prefer standard over wild
oooh now the lamers cant play their ultra lame decks anymore :(((( too bad !
It has nothing to do with the player or the deck. Since my other post was deleted I'll just leave this here:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20160005270

[0034]
The matchmaking system and method may be leveraged in various contexts as well, such as to influence game-related purchases, recommend a composition of groups of players, train or identify non-player characters (NPCs) that should be used, and/or other contexts.

[0035]
For example, in one implementation, the system may include a microtransaction engine that arranges matches to influence game-related purchases. For instance, the microtransaction engine may match a more expert/marquee player with a junior player to encourage the junior player to make game-related purchases of items possessed/used by the marquee player. A junior player may wish to emulate the marquee player by obtaining weapons or other items used by the marquee player.

[0036]
The microtransaction engine may analyze various items used by marquee players and, if the items are being promoted for sale, match the marquee player with another player (e.g., a junior player) that does not use or own the items. Similarly, the microtransaction engine may identify items to be promoted, identify marquee players that use those items, and match the marquee players with other players who do not use those items. In this manner, the microtransaction engine may leverage the matchmaking abilities described herein to influence purchase decisions for game-related purchases.
12/19/2018 03:16 PMPosted by DexGallas
This whole update received a major whiplash.
I believe blizzard thought they'd be the knight in shining armor coming to save the day with these nerfs because a LOT of people have been complaining about druids fast mana gain and controling the deck with big minions, kingsbane being 12+ lifesteal per attack, and paladin just instantly having a whole board full of lethal minions (several times). Saronite nerf was just "but why?" reaction.

They listened to the whiners and now we have several decks instantly broken.

Not sure how fixing the game by breaking it is a good idea.


They had all these nerfs but then never nerfed hunter.. I dont get it.

Ive been playing kingsbane since the card was released because it was one of my favorite decks but just recently crafted greenskin then a week later they nerfed kingsbane.. So annoying. Now kingsbane gets wrecked by aggro.
guys, guys, I think the main problem is, is that blizzards dev team doesn't know how to nerf their cards correctly. Remember with companies like these with competitive game play they go for professional players they don't care that much about us. They only care about how to make money, keep professionals interested, and keep us into the game as well with new expansions and all kind of stuff like the nerfs and all that.

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