Did blzzard repeat the same mistake with printing Zul'jin?

Play Mode Discussion
Comparing the main effects of Zul'jin with (pre-nerf) Yogg-Saron, it's hard not to see how they are very similar. Both encourage the player playing them in their deck to disregard value of spell cards, many times opting to play spells suboptimally just to be rewarded with the effects of these cards.

The push back against allowing Yogg-Saron to exist in competitive metas was so strong against Blizzard, he was eventually nerfed to the point of being obsolete (the Nerf was actually subtle but it was enough to make him irrelevant in a good way.) Will this just be history repeating themselves? Or is the fact that Zul'jin is only available to hunters enough to make him not a big enough pain point? Regardless, this card just seems like extremely lazy design by the current hearthstone team.
1. It is in fact the laziest hero design that blizzard already did.

2. The game can probably handle it and if it was nowadays yogg should not get the nerf it had. There would be the whines it had but people learned a lot since the yogg nerf and we have a ton of things that makes yogg feel like funny when compared that people say nothing about.
I guess Zul'jin is as stupid as Yogg-Saron was and he'll be in every hunters deck next rotation.
YES! Its the Hunter Shudderwock!
Not to say that Zul’Jin is not out of line, comparing it to Yogg is shortsighted, and lacks understanding why Yogg was really nerfed.

Yogg won games for people when they had no business winning. It was not a legitimate build-around strategy, like Zul’Jin is, it was a panic button that never saw play on a winning board. You only dropped Yogg in a last ditch effort to steal a win.

Zul’Jin on the other hand, is a build around card. It doesn’t cast anything random, only what you have already played.

Again, Zul’Jin probably needs a nerf, but not for the same reason Yogg warranted it. They are similar cards, but by no means equivalent in nature or power.
Yogg was so crazy because you could play it and, on average, it would wipe the board, draw a bunch of cards, and deal some amount of damage, without disrupting your overall gameplan. It didn't care if you stuffed a bunch of cheap/garbage/synergistic spells into your deck, nor did it care if it got blown up in the process. It was so unpredictable that there wasn't any way to really play around it, which made it absurdly swingy.

Zul'jin and Tess Greymane, on the other hand, are infinitely fairer versions of Yogg. Both you and your opponent know exactly what spells will be cast and thus can play around it. Zul'jin won't clear the board and can have difficulty with well developed opposing boards that won't just die to the damage based hunter removal spells. Moreover, both cards require you to significantly invest in them in order to reap the benefit. Hunter decks must be largely spell based rather than minion based, the traditional hunter model, and Rogue decks have to rely on thief rogue strategies. Neither Zul'jin nor Tess are anywhere near the brokenness of pre-nerf Yogg, and are ultimate strong but fair cards.
Main differences
Yogg: see what happens. Maybe clears board, maybe makes some guys, maybe draw cards. Opponent concedes in disgust 30%

Zuljin: clears board, makes full board with 3 huffers, xmas tree secrets, draws cards with flare, opponent concedes 75% in disgust, 25% opponent concedes in disgust and uninstalls HS and becomes amish
12/30/2018 04:59 PMPosted by Plikuscht
Not to say that Zul’Jin is not out of line, comparing it to Yogg is shortsighted, and lacks understanding why Yogg was really nerfed.

Yogg won games for people when they had no business winning. It was not a legitimate build-around strategy, like Zul’Jin is, it was a panic button that never saw play on a winning board. You only dropped Yogg in a last ditch effort to steal a win.

Zul’Jin on the other hand, is a build around card. It doesn’t cast anything random, only what you have already played.

Again, Zul’Jin probably needs a nerf, but not for the same reason Yogg warranted it. They are similar cards, but by no means equivalent in nature or power.


I don't agree with this assessment of Yogg. The evidence I have to the contrary is that

1) Blizzard chose to nerf Yogg subtlety: when Yogg died the spell payoff died with him. This drastically reduced the effective return you could get for playing random spells inefficiently throughout the game. It did not, however, as drastically decrease the probability of a board clear.
2) The nerf was very effective, suggesting the dominant benefit of Yogg was to have each spells value doubled, even if the doubled spell was random.

I also would like to point out, Zul'jin is a very effective panic button, much like Yogg was.

In this regard, Zul'jin and Yogg are very much the same.
01/11/2019 01:23 PMPosted by yellovvsnovv
12/30/2018 04:59 PMPosted by Plikuscht
Not to say that Zul’Jin is not out of line, comparing it to Yogg is shortsighted, and lacks understanding why Yogg was really nerfed.

Yogg won games for people when they had no business winning. It was not a legitimate build-around strategy, like Zul’Jin is, it was a panic button that never saw play on a winning board. You only dropped Yogg in a last ditch effort to steal a win.

Zul’Jin on the other hand, is a build around card. It doesn’t cast anything random, only what you have already played.

Again, Zul’Jin probably needs a nerf, but not for the same reason Yogg warranted it. They are similar cards, but by no means equivalent in nature or power.


I don't agree with this assessment of Yogg. The evidence I have to the contrary is that

1) Blizzard chose to nerf Yogg subtlety: when Yogg died the spell payoff died with him. This drastically reduced the effective return you could get for playing random spells inefficiently throughout the game. It did not, however, as drastically decrease the probability of a board clear.
2) The nerf was very effective, suggesting the dominant benefit of Yogg was to have each spells value doubled, even if the doubled spell was random.

I also would like to point out, Zul'jin is a very effective panic button, much like Yogg was.

In this regard, Zul'jin and Yogg are very much the same.


In my opinion yogg swung and ended the game the turn he was played, where Tess and Zul’jin need one more turn to get their value after being played by the nature of the things they usually end up casting.
01/11/2019 01:23 PMPosted by yellovvsnovv
12/30/2018 04:59 PMPosted by Plikuscht
Not to say that Zul’Jin is not out of line, comparing it to Yogg is shortsighted, and lacks understanding why Yogg was really nerfed.

Yogg won games for people when they had no business winning. It was not a legitimate build-around strategy, like Zul’Jin is, it was a panic button that never saw play on a winning board. You only dropped Yogg in a last ditch effort to steal a win.

Zul’Jin on the other hand, is a build around card. It doesn’t cast anything random, only what you have already played.

Again, Zul’Jin probably needs a nerf, but not for the same reason Yogg warranted it. They are similar cards, but by no means equivalent in nature or power.


I don't agree with this assessment of Yogg. The evidence I have to the contrary is that

1) Blizzard chose to nerf Yogg subtlety: when Yogg died the spell payoff died with him. This drastically reduced the effective return you could get for playing random spells inefficiently throughout the game. It did not, however, as drastically decrease the probability of a board clear.
2) The nerf was very effective, suggesting the dominant benefit of Yogg was to have each spells value doubled, even if the doubled spell was random.

I also would like to point out, Zul'jin is a very effective panic button, much like Yogg was.

In this regard, Zul'jin and Yogg are very much the same.


It depends on the deck though.

Zul'Jin does nothing to help win you the game in deathrattle hunter, or midrange hunter, or secret hunter if you are staring down a board that will kill you.

The only deck that Zul'Jin is going to panic button fix the board for you is spell hunter, which can afford to run crushing walls, deadly shot, etc. in addition to the spellstones.

For the rest of the hunter decks out there right now, it'll reset the secrets, maybe summon some wolves, and that's all. The secrets it refreshes interrupts at most a single attack (while reminding your opponent exactly what secrets are on board), and won't clear much of anything unless you get lucky with kill commands.

The number of decks that actually get that scary Zul'Jins are pretty small within the hunter meta decks.

Yogg could be splashed into ANY deck that happened to run a good number of spells as a possible game swing. The spells you ran didn't matter, they just had to be spells.

In most hunter decks zul'jin is mostly used to replay animal companions and spellstones, with a side benefit of refreshing secrets. While that's extremely good, it is still far weaker than anything that Yogg could do for you, especially pre-nerf yogg that would keep going after it killed itself.

Zul'Jin isn't really an effective panic button. It only functions as one in spell hunter. In other decks it is just a strong board builder that might win you the game next turn if the opponent doesn't have the right AoE.
01/11/2019 01:47 PMPosted by Smeet
01/11/2019 01:23 PMPosted by yellovvsnovv
...

I don't agree with this assessment of Yogg. The evidence I have to the contrary is that

1) Blizzard chose to nerf Yogg subtlety: when Yogg died the spell payoff died with him. This drastically reduced the effective return you could get for playing random spells inefficiently throughout the game. It did not, however, as drastically decrease the probability of a board clear.
2) The nerf was very effective, suggesting the dominant benefit of Yogg was to have each spells value doubled, even if the doubled spell was random.

I also would like to point out, Zul'jin is a very effective panic button, much like Yogg was.

In this regard, Zul'jin and Yogg are very much the same.


It depends on the deck though.

Zul'Jin does nothing to help win you the game in deathrattle hunter, or midrange hunter, or secret hunter if you are staring down a board that will kill you.

The only deck that Zul'Jin is going to panic button fix the board for you is spell hunter, which can afford to run crushing walls, deadly shot, etc. in addition to the spellstones.

For the rest of the hunter decks out there right now, it'll reset the secrets, maybe summon some wolves, and that's all. The secrets it refreshes interrupts at most a single attack (while reminding your opponent exactly what secrets are on board), and won't clear much of anything unless you get lucky with kill commands.

The number of decks that actually get that scary Zul'Jins are pretty small within the hunter meta decks.

Yogg could be splashed into ANY deck that happened to run a good number of spells as a possible game swing. The spells you ran didn't matter, they just had to be spells.

In most hunter decks zul'jin is mostly used to replay animal companions and spellstones, with a side benefit of refreshing secrets. While that's extremely good, it is still far weaker than anything that Yogg could do for you, especially pre-nerf yogg that would keep going after it killed itself.

Zul'Jin isn't really an effective panic button. It only functions as one in spell hunter. In other decks it is just a strong board builder that might win you the game next turn if the opponent doesn't have the right AoE.


Valid point. I agree with your assessment.
?
i dont understand what you mean

with yogg the "mistake" was they didnt expect it to be in competitive deck but it was and people started to play it on their tournament decks

i dont think they ever meant zul jin to not be a card run in decks at tournaments or ranked
If remember right Yog did spell from other classics on like hunter Zul'jin does it's own spell only from hunter class.
12/30/2018 04:59 PMPosted by osumatthew
Yogg was so crazy because you could play it and, on average, it would wipe the board, draw a bunch of cards, and deal some amount of damage, without disrupting your overall gameplan. It didn't care if you stuffed a bunch of cheap/garbage/synergistic spells into your deck, nor did it care if it got blown up in the process. It was so unpredictable that there wasn't any way to really play around it, which made it absurdly swingy.

Zul'jin and Tess Greymane, on the other hand, are infinitely fairer versions of Yogg. Both you and your opponent know exactly what spells will be cast and thus can play around it. Zul'jin won't clear the board and can have difficulty with well developed opposing boards that won't just die to the damage based hunter removal spells. Moreover, both cards require you to significantly invest in them in order to reap the benefit. Hunter decks must be largely spell based rather than minion based, the traditional hunter model, and Rogue decks have to rely on thief rogue strategies. Neither Zul'jin nor Tess are anywhere near the brokenness of pre-nerf Yogg, and are ultimate strong but fair cards.


I clear the board all the time when I play Rogue and pull a Zul'jin. Turn out if you are recasting your Rogue spells the board disappears.
Not a fan of Zuljin or anything like it....looking at Guldan.

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