Wild Growth and Nourish nerfs were not right.

Play Mode Discussion
(note: not a druid player)

When I saw the balance changes including nerfs to rogue, shaman, paladin, and druid, I was honestly quite shocked as to how these two iconic classic cards were nerfed.

Before KotFT, ramp was never a problematic mechanic in the game. After KotFT, druids basically got the cards that covered up their big weaknesses: board control and card draw.

Instead of nerfing spreading plague, ultimate infestation or malfurion, these core classic cards were nerfed instead. Why? Why not instead nerf spreading plague to 7mana or reduce the card draw on ultimate infestation? These cards are the real reason why ramp druid is so good, it's because these cards make druid super op.

I'm also upset because after year of the mammoth rotates out, druids are going to be in a terrible state. As already the least played class and the lowest winrate class, I don't think druids will have much of a winning shot this coming year at all.

Very upsetting that the mechanic that made druids unique got nerfed to oblivion.

Edit: Did not expect this to blow up wow, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this.
12/21/2018 02:04 PMPosted by hotdog13566
Very upsetting that the mechanic that made druids unique got nerfed to oblivion.

Well said
The Warsongering of Druid was a panic nerf that was not even needed. Most of their decks were Tier 2.

Wild Growth simply losing Excess Mana card draw, Nourish giving two empty crystals and maybe cutting the card draw to 2 would have been enough without killing the class.

If still necessary, the problems were UI (specially paired with free Arcane Tyrant(s) and Branching Paths. UI could go down to 4 in the damage/draw/body and armor and Paths mana to 5. Maybe Malfurion to 8.

Now look at the class with 40% win rate and 3% popularity.

We asked for balance changes, not panic butchering.
100% agree with you OP. UI removed the ramping drawback and since then we've seen the rise of Druid's power level with ramping.

We'll know soon enough but I fear Druid will be in a bad spot come rotation
I was surprised myself. I expected one of the two to get a nerf (because UI wasn't changed before, it was unlikely Blizzard'd do it now), not both.

It was an overkill (no pun intended) for sure.

However, there is one tiny thing I liked about this, actually. It (potentially) diversifies the 2-mana spot of druid's arsenal.
12/21/2018 03:55 PMPosted by EBSnike

However, there is one tiny thing I liked about this, actually. It (potentially) diversifies the 2-mana spot of druid's arsenal.


They said this but it's actually just smoke.

Token Druid runs both Wild Growth and Power of the Wild and for a time even ran Wrath with them too.

Some Maly/Tog ran Wrath too. Aggro/Spiteful don't need it so there it goes the argument that "every" Druid ran it.
Wild Growth was still kind of a Keleseth in that the win rate for druid decks was almost completely decided by hitting Wild Growth on curve or not. That said, this nerf was just Blizzard once again doubling down on UI not being a problem card even though a moron can do the math and see UI is a 17 mana play on 1 card. UI has ruined this game since the first day it entered the card pool.
I find wild growth th 3 okay, though nourish to 6 I find a bit hard.
12/21/2018 02:35 PMPosted by TheChemist
12/21/2018 02:04 PMPosted by hotdog13566
Very upsetting that the mechanic that made druids unique got nerfed to oblivion.

Well said
The worst part is these changes will not get undone.
Blizz, if your Classic set has OP cards in it...stop nerfing them please?
Rotate the whole set like Kib says all the time.

When you nerf these cards...vs if you kept-them-strong and rotated them...these cards will never be played much again.

Its a permanent effect...where rotating them is-not-permanent.

Why do you take such a dangerous approach to balance?
See in 2 years Wild Growth will still cost-3...and just sit there.
Like I don't think you understand some of us prefer you balance around what made this game soooo successful and cool back in 14/15/16.

An example of what made this game so cool was a 2 mana Growth.
You balanced around it then...
But then you did not...
And instead of changing the expansion cards that didn't consider 2-Growth 5-Nourish..you changed Growth and Nourish forever. Its so uncool, really.

Here's an example. Plague n UI.
Why couldn't you change those instead of Growth Nourish?
Future design space of a now totally-different game?
See you change the whole game when you nerf such iconic and core-cards....so its not 'the same game's" future design space. The moment you make these nerfs the game is different...and that game's future design space is what you are protecting.
The other classes had expansion cards nerfed (all of which are about to rotate from standard) as if they even cared about the power level of wild (or these specific nerfs addressed the real power level of those wild decks).

Druid however had classic cards decimated based on the power of expansion cards. Sacrificing turns to empower later turns was a legitimate strategy that was only as good as the cards supporting it.

Many current Druid cards were balanced around the old cost of WG/Nourish. The new costs may make them unplayable. Instead of “limiting design space” Blizz will need to make increasing more powerful cards to justify adding WG/Nourish to your deck. Unless of course they just wanted them gone from the game, which is stupid.
These cards are fundamentally so BUSTED that they would have remained in EVERY damn druid deck should they decide not to touch them. When every druid deck starts with 2x Wild Growth and 2x Nourish regardless of archetype - that's a clear indication that something needs fixing.
The same can be said about Ultimate Infestation, Spreading Plague and other grotesque cards but those will rotate eventually while the classic set stays.
You need to understand how incredibly toxic it is for future sets that your core set is leagues above other core sets in the game.
12/21/2018 11:01 PMPosted by Kampec
These cards are fundamentally so BUSTED that they would have remained in EVERY damn druid deck should they decide not to touch them. When every druid deck starts with 2x Wild Growth and 2x Nourish regardless of archetype - that's a clear indication that something needs fixing.
The same can be said about Ultimate Infestation, Spreading Plague and other grotesque cards but those will rotate eventually while the classic set stays.
You need to understand how incredibly toxic it is for future sets that your core set is leagues above other core sets in the game.

Completely untrue, with all due respect.

Firstly, Wild Growth has never been played in an aggro deck, and -- as I'll explain below -- combo and ramp decks would obviously run a reliable ramp card. Thus your claim that it is "overpowered" and included in all archetypes is fundamentally incorrect, but I will assuredly grant that it was an evergreen card that saw a huge amount of play -- however, this is true of every class.

Secondly, Nourish has only been an "auto-include" since Jade Druid's inception because of the need for draw, and later because it could be used for ramping aggressively into Ultimate Infestation. The only reason Nourish saw play before then was because Spell Druid wanted to cast as many spells as possible, and Fandral Staghelm could provide a huge swing turn with it if he lived a turn. Prior to then, Nourish was almost never played, with players opting for pre-nerf Ancient of Lore: the reason is because, by itself, it was a 5-Mana "lose all tempo" card. Before Ultimate Infestation, Nourish was almost never used to ramp even when it was played.

Thirdly, regarding archetypes...

Name me a single Druid deck since the original Force of Nature and Savage Roar Combo Druid that was midrange (which, of course, had its own combo that was used to finish games, using the midrange shell to get there), aside from Midrange-Token Druid in Whispers of the Old Gods. Name me a single iteration of Aggro or Aggro-Token Druid that ran either Wild Growth or Nourish. Name me a single control deck Druid has ever had (the answer is none, because what people sometimes call "control" in Druid is always actually "combo"). In fact, every single current Druid deck in Standard is of the combo archetype; in Wild, it's combo in the form of Malygos and ramp in the form of Jade.

Combo Druids always run ramp because they wish to complete their combo as quickly as possible, as is inherent to the archetype. The other Druids that ran Wild Growth were virtually all Ramp Druids (e.g., pure Ramp Druid, Big Druid, Jade Druid), which is to be expected.

Lastly, the claim that Druid's core set is "broken" has a false premise. Regardless of whether that was once the case -- it did previously have one of the best Basic and Classic sets, but Mage, Rogue, and Warrior's were also incredibly powerful -- this has not been true for a long time. Said cards have been systematically destroyed, and with the latest patch, Druid indubitably has one of the worst evergreen sets.

Furthermore, every class still has Basic or Classic cards that see an inordinate amount of play. Should we nerf Mage's Fireball? Hunter's Animal Companion? Priest's Power Word: Shield? No, because they're iconic and class-defining. Consequently, even if Nourish were a candidate for the Hall of Fame, it should not have been nerfed; and Wild Growth absolutely should not have been nerfed.

The problem was in Spreading Plague and Ultimate Infestation mitigating the class' biggest weaknesses: vulnerability to wide boards and susceptibility to run out of steam after ramping, respectively. Cards that effectively patch a class' weakness should not exist. (Not that Druid was actually problematic by any metric despite being overplayed, mind you; it just wasn't fun to play against.)
12/21/2018 11:37 PMPosted by Phobetor
12/21/2018 11:01 PMPosted by Kampec
These cards are fundamentally so BUSTED that they would have remained in EVERY damn druid deck should they decide not to touch them. When every druid deck starts with 2x Wild Growth and 2x Nourish regardless of archetype - that's a clear indication that something needs fixing.
The same can be said about Ultimate Infestation, Spreading Plague and other grotesque cards but those will rotate eventually while the classic set stays.
You need to understand how incredibly toxic it is for future sets that your core set is leagues above other core sets in the game.

Completely untrue, with all due respect.

Firstly, Wild Growth has never been played in an aggro deck, and -- as I'll explain below -- combo and ramp decks would obviously run a reliable ramp card. Thus your claim that it is "overpowered" and included in all archetypes is fundamentally incorrect, but I will assuredly grant that it was an evergreen card that saw a huge amount of play -- however, this is true of every class.

Secondly, Nourish has only been an "auto-include" since Jade Druid's inception because of the need for draw, and later because it could be used for ramping aggressively into Ultimate Infestation. The only reason Nourish saw play before then was because Spell Druid wanted to cast as many spells as possible, and Fandral Staghelm could provide a huge swing turn with it if he lived a turn. Prior to then, Nourish was almost never played, with players opting for pre-nerf Ancient of Lore: the reason is because, by itself, it was a 5-Mana "lose all tempo" card. Before Ultimate Infestation, Nourish was almost never used to ramp even when it was played.

Thirdly, regarding archetypes...

Name me a single Druid deck since the original Force of Nature and Savage Roar Combo Druid that was midrange (which, of course, had its own combo that was used to finish games, using the midrange shell to get there), aside from Midrange-Token Druid in Whispers of the Old Gods. Name me a single iteration of Aggro or Aggro-Token Druid that ran either Wild Growth or Nourish. Name me a single control deck Druid has ever had (the answer is none, because what people sometimes call "control" in Druid is always actually "combo"). In fact, every single current Druid deck in Standard is of the combo archetype; in Wild, it's combo in the form of Malygos and ramp in the form of Jade.

Combo Druids always run ramp because they wish to complete their combo as quickly as possible, as is inherent to the archetype. The other Druids that ran Wild Growth were virtually all Ramp Druids (e.g., pure Ramp Druid, Big Druid, Jade Druid), which is to be expected.

Lastly, the claim that Druid's core set is "broken" has a false premise. Regardless of whether that was once the case -- it did previously have one of the best Basic and Classic sets, but Mage, Rogue, and Warrior's were also incredibly powerful -- this has not been true for a long time. Said cards have been systematically destroyed, and with the latest patch, Druid indubitably has one of the worst evergreen sets.

Furthermore, every class still has Basic or Classic cards that see an inordinate amount of play. Should we nerf Mage's Fireball? Hunter's Animal Companion? Priest's Power Word: Shield? No, because they're iconic and class-defining. Consequently, even if Nourish were a candidate for the Hall of Fame, it should not have been nerfed; and Wild Growth absolutely should not have been nerfed.

The problem was in Spreading Plague and Ultimate Infestation mitigating the class' biggest weaknesses: vulnerability to wide boards and susceptibility to run out of steam after ramping, respectively. Cards that effectively patch a class' weakness should not exist. (Not that Druid was actually problematic by any metric despite being overplayed, mind you; it just wasn't fun to play against.)


Nice wall of text. I've read through all, sorry for not reflecting on your points, there are some things I can agree with in there. But obviously I'm not the one who's ultimately wrong here; at the end of the day the cards we talk about got nerfed so if you're calling me wrong you're calling the devs incompetent at the same time too.
They are also a few expansions ahead of everyone else and know a whole lot more than any single person in this thread so you can't do anything but trust them with their decision.
That, and the nerfs were released in only a 12 hour timespan. Didn't even wait for community feedback, they just went and did it. These are druid's basic mechanics implemented since day one, we deserve to have a say in it.
Once rotation happened, Druids were gunna get left high and dry, since the vast majority of their cards in their core were from KnC (Twig, Spellstone, Tyrant, Togwaggle, Branching Paths) or KoFT (Malfurion, Lich King, Spreading Plague, Ultimate Infestation, Hadronox).

The past few expansions have given Druids very few tools specifically BECAUSE of how good KnC and KoFT were for them. What's this year given them? Floop, Florist, Ferocious Howl, arguably Wispering Woods? Everything else requires support from cards that are going to get rotated (Gonk needs Twig, Undatakah needs Astral Tiger and Hadronox, Combo Druids need the defensive and removal shell).

Nerfing their classic cards seemed super short-sighted when:

1) Ramp isn't really the problem Druid has. It's the cards that cover the weaknesses of Ramp (notably UI and Spreading Plague).
2) Druids aren't even all that strong. They're not terrible mind you, but far from being the top dog.
3) We were literally in the expansion before the rotation which would remove the far more problematic cards.

You wanna nerf Druids classic set? That's fine. But doing it how they did and when they did was a huge mistake.

It should have happened with the rotation, so we don't get this 3 month gap where Druids have literally zero decks with a 50% win-rate.

if they needed a bandaid fix, they should have just nerfed UI and been done with it.
12/22/2018 11:52 AMPosted by Awkward
if they needed a bandaid fix, they should have just nerfed UI and been done with it.


Here's the problem, though: Nerfing Ultimate Infestation would have done next to nothing. Yes, I know, the pitchforks are coming, but hear me out before you go all trigger happy with the downvotes.

I'd argue that certain cards such as Ferocious Howl, Juicy Psychmelon, and Branching Paths made UI more of a hindrance than a benefit. Hell, even Nourish itself was used more than UI. Sure, it draws five cards for you, but with the amount of card draw that was given to the Druid during the past few expansions, and with the emphasis of getting as many cards in your hand as possible, it made Ultimate Infestation obsolete - the only serious deck to use it was Spiteful Druid, and part of it was to just use UI as a way to cheat out a 10-cost minion. You also have the possibility of overdrawing a linchpin card.

Considering the draw options Druid got, you tell me if nerfing UI would have accomplished anything:

Branching Paths - a modular Choose Twice card that has the flexibility of netting you extra Armor when needed if you didn't want to overdraw, or it could be used as burst potential.

Ferocious Howl - Draws a card and gives you anywhere from at least 4-9 health when you use it for three mana.

Juicy Psychmelon - The reason why Avianna got nerfed, it basically allowed you to draw your win condition early and just stall out the game until you could set up the combo.

With those three cards I listed, the flexibility each of those had was such that it was a sort of power creep, with Ultimate Infestation falling by the wayside because of the lack of flexibility that each of the cards I listed have.

So yeah, nerfing Ultimate Infestation would be like like trying to put a Band-Aid on someone that needed a heart transplant.
Honestly the nerfs look like something to hit a particular classes base set HARD (Druid in this case), so they can print mandatory epic and legendaries for druid next set and profit from that. they don't seem to care that they just erased the ramping identity the class had and left it, well basic. No surprise that I keep finding myself playing less and less when the developers pull something THIS silly. I hate to say it, but the game has been looking like a total cash grab lately, and that really saddens me..
Nourish didn't need the nerf.

Wild Growth was basically always being run in every druid deck, wild and standard. Probably limited card design space
12/24/2018 04:12 PMPosted by VulDread
Nourish didn't need the nerf.

Wild Growth was basically always being run in every druid deck, wild and standard. Probably limited card design space


So? Swipe is run in pretty much every druid deck too should it be nerfed? I can't remember a control warrior that didn't run brawl better nerf that. Hex and animal companion are pretty popular in their respective classes better get those too. Popularity on its own is a poor reason to nerf cards.

That said given that the ONLY ramp cards that have received nerfs are the evergreen ones, it should be pretty obvious what the real reason for nourish and WG being nerfed was
These "poor druid" posts should come with a disclaimer that all previously nerfed classic cards should be UN-nerfed. Blizzard has been nerfing classic cards for a while now but we don't get up in arms about it until its druid's turn.

In other words give me back my axe and you can cry for druid all day. Until then ya'll hypocrites, druid could enjoy some time at the bottom of the barrel, i know its a new thing to them.

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